Rear end shifted to the Passenger side??

Pictures.  We need pictures.

JPS never made Spyders. He may have finished one, in which case it's a Beck, Vintage, or TR(Thunder Ranch).

Most Spyders are swing axle, but some have De Dion rear ends. Again, pictures.

You came to the right place for answers but you need to post up some photos.  Look for an emblem from builder. Like this:  

suspension may be straight..could the body have come loose from frame and moved?

Ok here are some pictures. Measured each rim to case of trans to see if the axel's pulled out, that measurement was consistent. Tube frame to suspension consistent. So either the Body moved ( but I don't see any witness marks from nuts or washers sliding underneath) or the motor and trans shifted to the Passenger side. i just picked the outside of the tire as a baseline, looks to be an inch off. And it was not like that before yesterday. No jumping or crashing was involved.

This was also on there page.  Maybe they recently started making them.  

I think that silver one went to Jonathan Motor Cars on the East coast. They were selling it in the late summer/ fall of this year.

Its a Chamonix body built by John. Irrelevant to the question I am asking though. I'm not trying to prove the Provenance of my fake car, just trying to fix the fun things that pop up on replicas.

Check the motor mounts.

Yeah, I might try to loosen motor mounts and transaxel mounts and shift the thing back into center. Thanks.   

If you look on JPS website, go to the Spyder tab, thats mine in the first few pictures. I need to call him and tell him I want royalties! Ha Ha

It would seem more likely that the body shifted sideways, somehow, rather than the transaxle shifting sideways in the frame.  The transaxle has three mounting points in a triangle (very sturdy) and then the wheel hubs are held in place by the spring plates.  If all that were to shift sideways, it would have to include the transaxle, BOTH axles and the wheel hubs/spring plates.  All that moved sideways together?  I don’t think so.

OTOH, If the rear clamshell of the body were to move sideways by a hinge failing or coming apart, that would give the result that you’re describing.  My money’s on rear body shift.

Thanks Gordon. I did loosen all of the motor and trans bolts to see if it would shift back. Didn't move at all, and those were bolts were tight. I thought the spring plates would look bent one way or the other. But all of the measurements were pretty close. I was hoping it was the clamshell, that would be easy. But hinges were good and the body fit was perfect. I'm going to play with that a bit more and see what that does.

Tubular chassis and the rear of the frame is riveted to the body behind the rear seats so I don't think the body moved??

My only other thought was maybe the retainer for the CV came loose/ broke and the internals shifted over. Jacked the rear end up and nothing felt loose but the spring plates would probably hold all of that stuff fairly tight. It's funny timing, the day I get the entire SB-100 process finished and get my plates all this happens. It Couldn't give me 24 hours to feel like the project was over and enjoy it for a second. Never a dull moment. I'll let you know when I figure it out.

Highly unlikely that the body moved on the frame, but movement of the drivetrain is kinda scary too.

Yeah Lane, either one isn't great. Last resort is to slide it into a curb to knock it back into place! It could work......

The body can’t shift there’s eleventy billion rivets and a huge schmear of industrial strength glue holding the tub to the tube frame. One or more of the motor and trans mounts ripped. Use a 3 or 4-foot prybar on the bell housing and light up the mounts and look for cracks as you try to lever the engine up out of its cradle.

@TimH posted:

Its a Chamonix body built by John. Irrelevant to the question I am asking though. I'm not trying to prove the Provenance of my fake car, just trying to fix the fun things that pop up on replicas.

Actually, it's very relevant to frame and suspension design. I don't give a whit about "provenance", just trying to help you. Information is power. Chamonix used to be synonymous with Beck, but not so any more. Either way, it's an approximate 3" tube frame with swing axle rear end. And they aren't CV joints, they are swing axles.

And by your measurement pics it looks maybe 1/2" shifted to one side. I'd check motor mounts and the single transmission mount at the rear. Broken mounts can cause that, as well as the noise. I'll also suggest two things: HD German bellhousing/trans mounts OR CB Rhino mounts. Absolutely no others, they are junk. Plus, get a solid trans strap(Greg Leach at Vintage makes them).

@barncobob: There is no "pan". All Spyders are a custom tube frame. The bodies are attached permanently during the build via bonding, rivets, screws, and fiberglassing. Ain't no way for the body "to shift".

The pictures that the OP took clearly show the fixed portion of the body, not the clamshell. So, umm, yeah, the body didn't shift.

I would check the axle tube fit at the aluminum sidecovers by the differential. Some of these are not machined properly and can have excessive play.

The spring plates certainly can flex sideways quite a bit. They are longer in a Spyder by maybe 6 inches, and again, it's not an IRS chassis. The only thing holding the axle from sideways movement is the axle tube and retainer.

The only other possibility is the bearing housing came loose from the axle tube itself. There is a large pin that holds the tube in place. I hope that isn't the case but it should be checked. Even if it's there, the length of the axles should be measured and compared.

Good luck.

I need to get home and do some more measurements but now that I think about it the only thing that really moved was the drive side. The inner wheel well of the clamshell was hitting the brake caliper e brake spring ( that was the noise I heard, and was new for that day) so it could be the drivers side axel tube like Bob suggested. If the entire drivetrain shifted the passenger side inner wheel well would be fairly far away from the brake on that side. I don't remember it being more than an inch from that side. Seems strange for 600 miles, but who knows these days with repro parts.

A portable drum sander(even a Dremel) can clearance the inner fender if it's hitting the e-brake spring.

Yes, JPS is assembling a Brazilian make kit, mostly from our old Brazilian tooling, which was unfortunately modified over the years and leased by a few different shops.  Thus, your car is generally based on a Gen 2 Beck, body is very close, frame is hard to tell since the fixture was messed with but overall is similar in concept...  And that is important when it comes to advise and replacement parts because JPS Spyder will mean nothing to most people since they don't manufacture anything and build other peoples kits.

@TimH are you 100% sure that it was not like that before and maybe not noticed due to ride height?  I know that may seem trivial but I ask because we saw several of these kits come out of Brazil in recent years where the frames were crooked and the bodies were off-set to one side to try and make up for it, but one wheel still stuck out further than the other.  Look at some old photos and verify that they were properly lined up previously.  Side-to-side differences are actually not uncommon, but we're talking minor amounts, hardly visible differences that are within the allowable tolerances.

As for something changing, the spyder body cannot move once mounted, so that is not your issue.  

The clamshell can be installed crooked, and then the gap cut straight, but again that would have been present from day 1.

Rear nosecone mount broken would allow it to shift one way, but you could jack up on the trans and watch the mount to see if it was your issue.  These can separate the rubber form the metal and look OK on quick inspection and when a load is applied they reveal the separation.

I cannot see your bell housing mounts to see if they are stock VW or the Beck custom HD style, but that is a place that would also allow the engine/trans to slip one direction, although a much less likely location.

If an internal trans clip broke where the axle fits into the end gear it could allow one axle to move outward, but that should be stopped by the caliper and the sudden looseness should also cause a heavy trans fluid leak.  For the whole assembly to move outward it would have to be axle tube and all, which is retained in a few different ways, so you'd have to have the "perfect storm" of broken bits in several areas...

@chines1 posted:

JPS Spyder will mean nothing to most people since they don't manufacture anything and build other peoples kits.

Bam.

@chines1 posted:

Yes, JPS is assembling a Brazilian make kit, mostly from our old Brazilian tooling, which was unfortunately modified over the years and leased by a few different shops.  Thus, your car is generally based on a Gen 2 Beck, body is very close, frame is hard to tell since the fixture was messed with but overall is similar in concept...  And that is important when it comes to advise and replacement parts because JPS Spyder will mean nothing to most people since they don't manufacture anything and build other peoples kits.

@TimH are you 100% sure that it was not like that before and maybe not noticed due to ride height?  I know that may seem trivial but I ask because we saw several of these kits come out of Brazil in recent years where the frames were crooked and the bodies were off-set to one side to try and make up for it, but one wheel still stuck out further than the other.  Look at some old photos and verify that they were properly lined up previously.  Side-to-side differences are actually not uncommon, but we're talking minor amounts, hardly visible differences that are within the allowable tolerances.

As for something changing, the spyder body cannot move once mounted, so that is not your issue.  

The clamshell can be installed crooked, and then the gap cut straight, but again that would have been present from day 1.

Rear nosecone mount broken would allow it to shift one way, but you could jack up on the trans and watch the mount to see if it was your issue.  These can separate the rubber form the metal and look OK on quick inspection and when a load is applied they reveal the separation.

I cannot see your bell housing mounts to see if they are stock VW or the Beck custom HD style, but that is a place that would also allow the engine/trans to slip one direction, although a much less likely location.

If an internal trans clip broke where the axle fits into the end gear it could allow one axle to move outward, but that should be stopped by the caliper and the sudden looseness should also cause a heavy trans fluid leak.  For the whole assembly to move outward it would have to be axle tube and all, which is retained in a few different ways, so you'd have to have the "perfect storm" of broken bits in several areas...

Thanks for all of the Info. Yeah I figured out of all of the companies " Building " Spyders only Beck where actually manufacturing bodies and tube chassis themselves. And I have noticed first hand that ( At least on mine) these are not production line, perfectly QC'd things. I have been going through mine ,and more than a few times , I have said out loud in my garage alone " Wow, that is sketchy".  So the rear end being off by 1/2 inch or more would not surprise me. I spent some time adjusting ride heights a month ago and took measurements to get it as close as I could, front to back and left to right side. I couldn't get the right side ride height as low as the left because the large nut and bolt to adjust on the spring plate was hitting a weld and couldn't go any lower without pulling that off and adding a little clearance with a grinder. So I'm pretty confident that ride height didn't change in the last week. I put on a few hundred miles since adjusting .

One thing I did notice when I jacked the car up a few days ago was when the trans was fully unloaded the boot on the drivers side was leaking a lot more than the other. Not knowing VW stuff too well ( More muscle car knowledge) wasn't sure if this was just due to the downward angle of the axel tube, or seal on the rubber boot being loose. I wouldn't call it a catastrophic leak, but noticeable. When you say heavy I assume you mean a quart on the floor.

I'll loosen the motor and trans mounts again later today or tomorrow and look for the nose cone.  I will check the bell housing bolts as well. Or, maybe I had the perfect storm of cornering force, suspension compression and body flex and the inner fender well caught on something and the fiber glass bent/cracked, then started hitting the caliper every time the rear compressed. It hit enough times to damage the press on edge protection / trim piece on the bottom edge of the inner fenderwell. The noise when it was hitting was 100% new.  A positive for all of this is I am getting to know this car very well, front to back. Hope everyone had a great Holiday.

Yeah, @TimH Beck and Vintage Motorcars Inc. are the only two manufacturers left in the USA.

So, basically, with regards to the suspension offset, the only thing I missed was that it originally could have been off before you even got the car. That still might be just the way it is.

I'm not a swing arm guy, so this is a total WAG, and I don't know if even possible.

The trailing torsion spring plates I've seen have slotted holes at the axle attachment (I presume for toe-in/out adjustments).  If (on the driver's side for example) the axle slipped back in the spring plate attachment slots it would cause a toe-out condition that might look like your pictures 1 & 2 at the top of this thread.  In other words, if the axle slips back in the slots, the front of the tire (that you have pictured) swings to the outside.

As I said, I don't know if such a thing can really happen; or if it did, if there is enough length in the slot to cause the extent of what you are seeing.  In any case, it would be real easy to check with a quick garage floor rear wheel alignment measurement and if the spring plate attachment bolts are tight.

PS:  Gurus, if this guess is out of line, speak up, so Tim doesn't go on a goose chase.

@TimH for visual reference of the slotted bolt holes on the trailing arm/spring plates that  @RS-60 mark mentioned.

@RS-60 mark you are correct in the potential spring plate slip.  If @TimH has the axles tubes unbolted from the spring plate I would encourage him to post a picture of that to make sure they are OK.  The plates are slotted for adjustment in tow.  Total adjustment usually equates to about 3/16" in tow, so that shouldn't allow enough visual change in the wheel/tire as he's experiencing, but it would change slightly.

I know what happened. Mark is right. The passenger side toe-in adjusters slipped, allowing the wheel to advance forward in the slots. This happened on my car as well.

This is an extremely minor issue. Nothing is broken and you're not gonna crash. It happened because you got on the go pedal in the twisties, and your engine's tremendous torque made the driving (i.e. passenger) wheel try to overtake the rest of the car.

The fix is easy: loosen the two bolts that hold the axle to the spring plate. Add toothed lock washers to the side that grabs the spring plate. Do this on both sides, taking care to not move the driver's side at all: chock the wheel and do one bolt at a time so there's always one on tight. Leave just the passenger side a little loose, then line up the car (alignment shop is best, but in a pinch you can put the car up and use two flat sticks to check the distance between the backs of the rims in two places—as far back as you can go and as far forward, set it at a little under 1/8-inch closer in front than in back, then run a string from the lower beam adjuster in front to the shock mount on each side and make sure that length is identical side to side).

Once it's set, tighten the bejeezus out of those suckers.

It's clear from the photos that the difference in wheel/tire "inness" and "outness" is only a quarter or three eighths of an inch. But yeah, that's enough to make it rub sometimes.

Now we are getting into the meat of the issue here, Ok I have a few things to do/and check now. Good call Mark, and thanks Ed for the same problem/ history with your car. You guys are great, 5 or 10 brains are always better than 1.  Didn't get to touch the car the last few days and will be at work again for the next few but should be able to dig into next week. I'll take some pictures and hopefully resolve it and then this post will help the next one having similar issues.  And no joke about the torque of this engine, It's no big block with 510 Foot pounds, but it holds its own for this tiny little car.

I was measuring some distances last week and was wondering what were good spots to measure off of . Since these things could be a little bent from new it seems like all of this is a bit trial and error. Getting the rear sorted and maybe changing the front end to a bit of negative camber this thing might really really fun. Can't beat the noise with the Sebring exhaust, and it's only at 700 miles, I haven't even had it over 4 grand yet! Trying to be a responsible break in driver.  One more big day out, check the valves and change the oil and its going to be fun.

Tim, in my opinion the front and back torsion tubes dictate the geometry of the chassis.  They should be parallel with each other with a common centerline intersecting them.  The distance between them dictates the wheel base and the rest of the chassis is fabricated square the torsion tubes.  So, the torsion tubes make a good reference point for any measurements.

In your case, if I wanted to do a quick garage-floor rear wheel alignment check I'd use a plumb bob and a string.

1.  Drive the car into the garage, don't jack it up; open the rear shell.

2.  On the driver's side:  With the plumb bob on a 3' string, line the string in the center tire tread groove and drop the plumb bob down along the groove on the fwd side of the tire to the garage floor.

3.  Make a mark on the garage floor where the point of the plumb bob touches the floor (without the plumb bob swinging.

4.  Do the same thing except drop the plumb bob down the groove on the rear side of the tire.

5.  Go the passenger side tire and do the same thing, on fwd and rear sides.

6.  Now you have 4 dots on the garage floor.  Measure between the fwd 2 dots and measure between the rear 2 dots.  Any difference between the two measurements is a quick preliminary indication of toe in/out issues.  Keep in mind that many of us refer to a 1/8" toe in when referenced to a 15" rim diameter.  The method described above will be referenced against a 25" tire diameter.  So 1/4" using this method is kinda like 1/8" if measured on 15" rim diameter.

Personally, slight toe-in is better than 0 toe.  Never allow any toe-out.

And, on the Sebring Exhaust:  I immediately picked up on that in your pictures and thought  --  oh yeah, Tim made some great choices!  In my opinion, nothing is better!  Good job.

This is amazing Mark, thanks. I will do that first thing next week. And I would agree, the torsion tubes have to be the basis to measure everything else. Frame can be off a bit, but those should be solid. I'm buying the beer if we ever meet up!