Passed this woeful tableau on my way home yesterday.
I know that Blazecut and other fire-suppression systems have been discussed here at length — I think I’m heading toward installing one myself.
Anyone here ever rescued by a hands-free fire-putter-outer? Tell us about it.
If you’ve never heard of Blazecut, here’s one of their short videos...
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ouch
Cory, I am on a VW forum. It is no secret that early Bugs and Buses/Vanagons are susceptible to engine fires for a number of reason (faulty fuel filters, fuel lines, oil leaks). Many owners of earlier VW bugs and Buses/Vanagons have installed Blazecut extinguishers on their vehicles as a precaution for this reason.
Early extinguishing or suppressing of a fire (particularly in early VWs) is a key element in minimizing vehicle damage.
I'm guessing that those more expert than I will chime in with more knowledgeable and expert information than I can provide. @Jim Kelly
had a fire on 63 right at carb, got it out no problem, had to have rear deck lid repainted, that was eons ago..
Jim Kelly is not a fan of the Blazecut because it isn't UL Certified so it hasn't been tested to their standards. They have sold thousands if not tens of thousands of units and many of our members have them installed.
I had a carb fire several years ago due to a clogged idle jet. One of our SOC firefighters @Rusty S put the fire out with his handheld Halon fire extinguisher and saved the day.
@Robert M posted:Jim Kelly is not a fan of the Blazecut because it isn't UL Certified so it hasn't been tested to their standards. They have sold thousands if not tens of thousands of units and many of our members have them installed.
I had a carb fire several years ago due to a clogged idle jet. One of our SOC firefighters @Rusty S put the fire out with his handheld Halon fire extinguisher and saved the day.
Wow! @Rusty S to the rescue!
It's much worse with a fiberglass vehicle. The resin is like fire starter once it catches! A good (at least 10#) hand held ought to be readily available in every vehicle. Problem with hand held is you have to open the hot engine lid with your bare hands plus that lets more air in and the fire flare up.
@Cory McCloskey I have two Blazecuts installed. One is hung off of the firewall just in front of the fan shroud and below the hinge mounts and is long enough (3'?) to curve around past the sides around the carburetors by 6" - 8" or so - All of my fuel delivery is behind the shroud, fuel pump in the car nose. I hung it with insulated electrical clamps to the firewall, one end is exposed a little more because that end has the pressure gauge in it.
The other Blazecut is another 3 footer wrapped around my BN-2 gas heater up in the nose of the car. It's the 3/4" white hose attached to the wall of the frunk below. Used the same insulated electrical clamps to hold it in place and bent it to the confines of the battery well.
IIRC, Blazecut tubes are normally 6' and 9' long. If you can find the space for a six footer, then go for it - Just wrap it all around the whole engine compartment and find a way to glue it to the inside of the body in back - clamps on the front and sides will support most of the weight and no big deal if it overlaps. If you need a shorter one (not listed on their website) then contact Blazecut to see if they'll pop one or two out (it'll be the same price as a 6').
Be aware that these tubes don't like to bend much. The best to hope for is a 6"-ish radius in the corners.
Did it buff out OK?
I had one carb fire well going down the road, by the time you process what's going on get the car stopped get out of the car, fumble to grab the fire extinguisher then with the fire extinguisher in one hand and you're trying to open the deck lid release with the other and somehow managed to pry open the decklid that's now on fire it's an interesting scenario and you don't have much time I was lucky damage was confined to the right carburetor fuel line and a little bit of the underside of the deck lid
I had one car fire well going down the road, by the time you process what's going on get the car stopped get out of the car, fumble to grab the fire extinguisher then with the fire Stinger sure one here and you're trying to open the deck lid release with the other and somehow managed to pry open the decklid that's on fire it's an interesting scenario and you don't have much time I was lucky damage was confined to the right carburetor fuel line and a little bit of the underside of the deck lid and that was because a highway dept truck showed up on the nick of time with a large extinguisher
I had one car fire well going down the road, by the time you process what's going on get the car stopped get out of the car, fumble to grab the fire extinguisher then with the fire Stinger sure one here and you're trying to open the deck lid release with the other and somehow managed to pry open the decklid that's on fire it's an interesting scenario and you don't have much time I was lucky damage was confined to the right carburetor fuel line and a little bit of the underside of the deck lid and that was because a highway dept truck showed up on the nick of time with a large extinguisher
I've almost done the flaming car trick in my 914 a couple of times. Fuel injected fuel lines are under high pressure. When they crack, they shoot out a fine mist of fuel perfect for ignition.
I installed a 9 footer in my Spyder. I figured more is better.
https://www.speedsterowners.co...my-blaze-cut-install
I also carry a fire extinguisher right by the drivers seat. If the Blaze-cut is activated, it'll probably suffocate the engine too. That'll be my first sign. There would be no way in hell to undo both straps and get the clamshell open to use the fire extinguisher in time, but I might be able to spray it into the carb vents on each side or the grill. The grill on a Spyder is not obstructed like in the Speedster. The Blaze-cut might buy me some time. Hopefully I'll never find out.
I was kicking around the idea of having a fire extinguisher plumbed to a sprinkler type system in the engine bay. I was thinking, the extinguisher could be triggered from the cockpit and still be removed to suppress a fire elsewhere if needed.
@Carlos G, what you described is a race car fire suppression system. Pricey, but the best way to go if you can afford it. I helped install one in a friends M3 race car once and am thinking about one in the Coupe.
@Carlos G posted:
I was kicking around the idea of having a fire extinguisher plumbed to a sprinkler type system in the engine bay. I was thinking, the extinguisher could be triggered from the cockpit and still be removed to suppress a fire elsewhere if needed.
This is one of the coolest things Mango Smoothy (Paul) did with his car-- a homemade fire suppression system using a standard extinguisher. His was really, really trick.
Must be similar to Danny P's bottle system.
I forgot to mention that, like my biker buddy Carlos, I have an extinguisher right by my left elbow that can be pulled and ready to blast in a second. The guy who inspected my car for a sticker is a fireman in the next town and really appreciated seeing it there.
I, too, hope I never have to use it.
I don't know why everyone says the handheld extinguisher doesn't do any good. My car started running like crap and I could see the flames coming out of the engine lid so I stopped and Troy opened up the engine lid. Rusty ran over with his extinguisher and put it out. There was no sudden flame up because the lid was opened and even the fire extinguisher were in my car and clamps we would have had time to put it out.
Do I think this is the same scenario every time? No. However anecdotal it may be not every engine fire is the same as any other fire. Besides, if my car burned to the ground I'd cash the insurance check and build another one. That's why the car is insured.
We did a group buy on 5 lb. systems from Safecraft back in the mid-2000s on Spyderclub.com. I believe they were $325 shipped. I didn't think that was too expensive for the safety added. The system uses a cable pull to activate, and empties the bottle. The bottle appears to be a standard aluminum CO2 bottle, but filled to a much lower pressure with Halon. Today Halotron is used because it doesn't trash the ozone layer like Halon did.
I attempted to get it refilled(with Halotron instead) but my local place wouldn't/couldn't. I'll probably have to buy a new system for the new car.
I aimed one jet at my gas heater under the dash. There were two more jets, one at each carb up high under the clamshell, which should blanket the entire compartment with the Halon, hopefully snuffing it out.
The system was supplied with aluminum tubing, which was somewhat easy to work with and keep from kinking. I think it was 3/8" or so thin tubing.
I've seen modern racecar systems in the pits at Lime Rock using plastic tubing today. That makes me wonder why anyone would use plastic?
@Robert M posted:I don't know why everyone says the handheld extinguisher doesn't do any good. My car started running like crap and I could see the flames coming out of the engine lid so I stopped and Troy opened up the engine lid. Rusty ran over with his extinguisher and put it out. There was no sudden flame up because the lid was opened and even the fire extinguisher were in my car and clamps we would have had time to put it out.
Do I think this is the same scenario every time? No. However anecdotal it may be, not every engine fire is the same as any other fire. Besides, if my car burned to the ground I'd cash the insurance check and build another one. That's why the car is insured.
Truer words were never spoken.
Apocryphal anecdotes are the order of the day in most car-guy circles. As an example, I cannot tell you how many times (in 40 years of playing with cars) I've heard about plastic fuel filters in the engine compartment practically guaranteeing an engine fire. To hear guys tell it, one may as well wander out to the garage and throw a lighter in the gas tank.
But every engine fire I've seen or heard about (especially in a speedster) has been from a backfire which lights the paper air-filter on fire. An ignition problem will do that. A plugged idle jet will do that. But a plastic fuel filter, properly installed, will not (and cannot) do that.
To avoid the plastic filters, I've seen some guys install multi-piece glass fuel filter bowls instead-- relying on several gaskets and thumb-screws in an effort to keep the dreaded plastic filter out of there. It's like lighting the living room couch on fire because everybody keeps telling you chimney fires are dangerous.
Danny's right, of course-- hard piped lines are better than rubber, but there are a lot of fitting points where a barbed fitting and rubber hose (and clamp) is 20x less expensive, and 99% as good (under normal conditions). Get good rubber, change it every so often, and it'll be just fine. Install plastic fuel filters properly (with clamps), change them regularly, and they'll be fine too.
I have half a mind to install a couple of them, just to watch guys flip out. I already carry a "do nothing" 5 lb fire extinguisher, so I may as well tick the other boxes as well.
@Stan Galat, my fire was unique, please see photo of both my filters in tact after fire.
I emptied my hand held and a police unit (who was right behind me) emptied his with no effect.
The VW single Solex carbs the brass fuel line male nipple is only a press fit into the carb casting, they are known to fall out and cause a fire.
I just went with a metal fuel filter mounted outside, below and forward of the engine cabin and away from heat. Five years and no problems.
I experienced an engine fire in my 64 bus when a plastic filter in the bay disconnected on one end. Not fun!
That's where mine is too (under the tank, up front)-- but my car almost burned to the ground regardless. I change my rubber regularly, have good clamps on every hose, and am hard-piped in most places.
In my case, it was a loose ignition module that caused a bad backfire that had a fire going in the 1/2 carb. I'm no insurance actuary, but I'd venture a guess that in these cars, the backfire situation I describe is the cause of more than half the cars burning. I'd venture that a plastic fuel filter melting in half and spraying the engine with fuel isn't the cause of 1/10 as many. Everybody bangs on those little filters, then uses 30 year old cloth-covered fuel line because it looks cool.
Just use common sense. Clamp your rubber lines. Replace them every few years, fix plugged idle jets and loose ignition modules as they arise. If your car starts running badly, stop and get out to determine you aren't becoming a rolling campfire.
Nothing is 100% fool-proof, and nothing short of a full Halon system is going to be 100% effective. Not a 5 lb or 20 lb hand-held, not a short piece of PEX with a fire retardant inside. That said, I'd still not ever roll one of these without at least something available, however unhandy. Having one is no guarantee you won't lose the car, but not having one is just asking for it.
Greg installed a 3/8" steel line down the center of my Spyder. It has a threaded end in the back, I installed a threaded brass T, and ran hard lines up each side, screw-in metal filter on each end. Just a short length of new German braided hose to each carb, secured with spring hose clamps.
Up front, I used a compression fitting on the hard line to a hose bib. I guess I could have just flared it a little. Short piece of hose to the pump, even shorter to the metal can filter, and then one more piece of hose to the tank. All secured with those spring hose clamps(NAPA) I mentioned.
Minimal rubber hose, maximum metal line, no plastic, no glass, and good clamps that do not damage the hose. Change the hose every 5 or 10 years and you're good.
Even with all that, the fire system is the way to go. Snuff it out before you even get out of the driver's seat. Seconds matter.......
I installed the BlazeCut too. And I also ditto what Robert M says: ”I'd cash the insurance check and build another one. That's why the car is insured. ”😊
@Pepespeed posted:Five years ago after a fire that totaled my VS, I installed an automatic system from Safecraft on my newly acquired Beck.
It was a bit more than $600, but worth it.
I have one of these Safecraft extinguishers that I took off my previous Speedster, but I have yet to figure out how to install in my IM6. There is not as much room back there with the 911 engine...
I too have one of the Safecraft extinguishers. I am a bit concerned about it it would work well where it is installed. It is toward the rear of the car under the latch. I couldn't mount it on the firewall because I have other stuff there.
I wanted to mount mine on the firewall, but it's pretty crowded back there. I will give it another try, as I think that's the best mounting spot.
I imagine it will work where you have it located, but not sure.
Or, You could always install this set up for a few thousand dollars as in this Pre-A 356 race car!😜
That isn't a few thousands dollars at all. It's less than $1000 easily. It's a regular cable pull system with an extra outside cable for the track workers to pull. I can't tell if it's a 5 or 10 pound system, but I'm guessing $700 or so.
I never had a fire in my original IM but on my Subie IM, one day I was doing an oil change and had the lid open, I started the engine and the lid was open I see the gaz line hose suddenly and it is coming off the filter and leaking and spraying gaz all over, of course it runs over or rather near the exhaust, so needless to say I cut the engine, stopped the flow and now I check all those clamps religiously... you know every Sunday.
My Safecraft is mounted on top of my Accusump shown here:
I about lit my Spyder up one day. I was pulling my battery out after taking my pass side carb off and grounded the + terminal to the engine. Luckily, the resulting "fire" was easy to blow out as a birthday candle.
I generally turn my fuel pump on and watch all the fuel lines after I've worked in the engine bay.
Sometimes you do stuff and it gets scary I still think about putting Some type of system like a blaze in my car even though it’s a Subie
Here's the "several thousand dollar system":
http://www.lifeline-fire.com/l...ppressionsystem.aspx
In case you don't want to click the link, $400.
Thanks @DannyP. Now I have to figure out where I'd install such a system. Probably no room for the bottle anywhere in the interior. The trunk, however...
For $399.99, that looks like a good deal. The foam will make a mess, but so does the fire.
I've been looking around a little, researching fire bottle systems. There are a lot of options for extinguishing agents.
That $400 option is a foam system, which can do a lot of damage to electrical and mechanical components, and isn't easy to clean up. Not to mention you don't want foam near your lungs, so a no-no in the cabin.
Dry chemical is OK, most just vacuum up, but again if you don't manually remove it all it can corrode and degrade components. Not good for lungs either.
Halon(and Halotron) leave no residue at all, but may be carcinogenic.
The last one, and one of the most expensive, is Novec 1230(and FM200, almost identical). Clean agent, no residue, and no documented ill effects to eyes, skin, and lungs.
That same $400 system but with Novec 1230 is $700. I think that would be my choice.
These systems are available in metric sizes: 2.25 kg is 4.95 pounds, 3 kg is 6.6 pounds($800 for the above system with larger 3 kg tank). Some sanctioning bodies have a 5 lb. minimum hence the very slightly larger 3 kg size, as they won't let you slide for 0.05 pounds.
2.25 kg:
http://www.lifelinefire.com/zero360fia225kgnovec1230firemarshalsystem.aspx
3.0 kg:
@DannyP posted:Here's the "several thousand dollar system":
http://www.lifeline-fire.com/l...ppressionsystem.aspx
In case you don't want to click the link,
I was thinking a “few Hundred dollars” when I wrote “thousand“, I tried to edit but I guess there’s a time period that you’re allowed and then not.
@IndianBob Sorry about that, Bob. I think the editing time frame is 30 minutes or less.
@Lane Anderson I'd look into the transmission area, under the trunk. MangoSmoothie mounted his under the seat area next to the heater channels. It just needs to be positioned so the gauge can be read, and it can be unbolted for servicing every few years. A long pull cable could easily be routed to the cabin. This way you don't lose any storage in either trunk.....
With the gas tank and radiator up front I would expect there to be insufficient space for this up there, @DannyP. The area over the tunnel under the dash might work, but I expect there to be some A/C ducting there. Not sure how much space there is next to the seats, but that's where I had the extinguisher in the Speedster. I have no real way to know until I see the car.
I think you're talking hand held, Lane.
I was talking about an installed system. But underneath your other trunk, so as not to lose any luggage space.
You know, the one in back, above the transmission? That area.
If I was a more intelligent replica owner I might spring for the system that Danny has, nit no - I took the poor-man's route and bought the Blaze Cut which, in all honestly, is unproven but should work quite well and besides..... I have that extinguisher bottle hung in my door opening as a back-up. We had two extinguishers in every school bus my dad put on the street and over 25 years we used five of them, each time to put out someone else's car fire. Not to say you shouldn't have one on board - YOU SHOULD!
In my past life I was involved in Data Centers (DC) full of servers (computers) and storage systems (wicked big disk systems the size of three refrigerators ). ANY customer was terrified of a DC fire not because of the fire, per se, (they all thought that their overhead water sprinklers would take care of that, silly people) but really because of loss of company/customer data and subsequent revenue. Water sprinklers would put the fire out (eventually) but the servers and storage (with YOUR credit card data or transaction data on them) would be dead because the water would simply destroy them (like what happens when you fall into your swimming pool while cleaning it and forgot to leave your cell phone in the house - oops). So everyone running business DCs of any size back in the 1990's went to highly efficient Halon foggers and intelligent sensors to trigger them.
How good were they? Take a look, from our friends at Kidde:
More modern systems work the same way, by excluding oxygen from the fire for several minutes, but they have migrated away from Halon to less carcinogenic gasses so the DC operators don't have to race out of the DC when the foggers go off.
BTW: Many of the new foggers do not produce a gas that is visible so they add stuff to it to make it visible, kind of like adding stinky stuff to natural gas so people can actually smell it.
Pretty cool, huh?
I will always pronounce it "Kidd-ee"
@Lane Anderson posted:I'm talking both. Remember, this car is mid-engined with the transaxle to the rear. The trunk is over the transaxle with a hump to clear it. See below.
Hey @chines1, any suggestions?
Insurance.
@Lane Anderson
:-)
Seriously though, we run full fire suppression systems in the race cars, mainly because we have to, but it's a good safety measure for the driver and other racers/crew. I have little concern about the race car itself. I tell all of my clients, if you ever have a fire just get away from the damn car and make sure you're safe. Insurance will take care of the rest. In nearly 3000 cars now, I know of maybe 3 fires, all aircooled. Happy to install any fire suppression someone wants though... it can't hurt and its your $$$.
@DannyP the $400 fire system doesn't install itself, so if I'm putting it in and testing it, it'll be a couple thousand ;-) Of course we do it MUCH cleaner than the 356 pictured, but thats another story.
But of course. That 356 install did look a little sloppy. You and I share higher installation standards.
"Insurance."
Smartass. 
If I get one I'll do the install (along with some of my racer building buddies) and then let Danny and Carey critique it.
Oooooo..... You’re opening yourself up to a lot of potential critique, son...
Hope there aren't any brass thingies in that fire system........
One of my freshly painted Ghias had a misfire in a carb and we almost turned the car into a BBQ pit until I whipped out the hand extinguisher. Haggerty's was very nice to me...
Meade
Regarding fire suppression and these cars: At the risk of seeming "dangerous", I really doubt Subaru guys will need them. You likely don't carry an on-board extinguisher in your daily driver, and you probably don't have one in your shop. Computer-controlled cars don't buck and spit and fart like older cars. They don't typically cackle on trailing throttle, or sneeze when warming up. They have no idle jets to plug, no cheesy points replacement modules to loosen up in the tiny distributors they don't have.
Alternately, it's the "simple" cars that burn, especially when maintenance isn't fastidious.
@Stan Galat posted:Alternately, it's the "simple" cars that burn, especially when maintenance isn't fastidious.
And sometimes they burn, even when it is.
Honestly Lane, unless you get involved in wheel-to-wheel racing, I don't think you'll need a system. Especially since you're EFI now.
We have two Subarus in our family, and zero fire extinguishers in either one.
I always carried one in my air cooled speedster.
@Meade posted:One of my freshly painted Ghias had a misfire in a carb and we almost turned the car into a BBQ pit until I whipped out the hand extinguisher. Haggerty's was very nice to me...
Meade
Nice sleeper; hope you got it fixed.
@DannyP posted:And sometimes they burn, even when it is.
Honestly Lane, unless you get involved in wheel-to-wheel racing, I don't think you'll need a system. Especially since you're EFI now.
I wonder how many fires are the direct result of "maintenance." That's why I always run my fuel pump and watch all my connections after every time I've been working on the engine.
I just installed a Blazecut unit. Very limited options for installation but i think it will do what it is supposed to.
Can someone tell me what temperature the engine compartment of my VS Speedy (1915cc) might be reaching while cruising for a couple hours at 65-70 mph on a very hot day (100F or more)?
I think I know where you're headed with that question. The box said Blazecut deployed at 220 degrees. I took it on a 100 mile drive this morning and kept expecting it to happen. My oil temp reached about 200 as I cruised between 75 and 80 for more than an hour. No problem 😊👍.
@PaulEllis posted:I think I know where you're headed with that question. The box said Blazecut deployed at 220 degrees. I took it on a 100 mile drive this morning and kept expecting it to happen. My oil temp reached about 200 as I cruised between 75 and 80 for more than an hour. No problem 😊👍.
I'd been recently thinking about the BlazeCut T100E @ 39.37" length. What's pretty much sold me on this unit is it utilizes a "clean" extinguishing agent that is claimed to be similar to Halon (banned in the US) and Halotron (my Amerex extinguisher). I'm MOST impressed with the description claiming this agent leaves no residue that would otherwise make an even bigger mess in the engine compartment. 
The T100E model specs go on to state the system detonates "when Temps inside the protected enclosure rise above a critical threshold of 120C/248F. I do acknowledge that's damned hot, but returning from last year's West Coast Cruise I was tortured by driving hard for 250 miles in 106F heat. 
More than once I noticed the oil temp "pegging" all the way, so I pulled over, opened the lid, and let the compartment "cool" with the 106 degree air. So-o-o, I really don't think I'm being overly paranoid being a little concerned with a BlazeCut exploding without flames erupting. 
The outside temp here in Phoenix hasn't gone below 95 in weeks. It went as high as 118 a couple of days ago. It has to be getting pretty warm in the engine compartment.
Perhaps tomorrow I'll measure the fan shroud with an IR gun out of curiosity.
At that temperature Paul, you must have to wait till late in the evening or early morning to take a ride. I would get sun stroke in those temperatures.
Here in Florida, assuming it isn't raining in the evening, that's when it cools down enough, mid 80's, to cruise out over the bridge across the Choctawhatchee Bay and watch the sunset.
Midday to early afternoon? Not unless you want to come back looking like bacon.
I feel fortunate to have the Cayman for daytime and the Speedster for evenings. I'm gonna make the most of this for as long as possible, but the Speedie may be on the block come spring. I just don't need as many cars as we have unwisely accumulated and I'm out of room.
I think your oil temps could easily exceed 250F and your heads could hit 400 before your engine bay got close to the Blaze Cut trigger temp. It's not going to spring if there isn't a fire.
@IaM-Ray posted:At that temperature Paul, you must have to wait till late in the evening or early morning to take a ride. I would get sun stroke in those temperatures.
I hear you...but it wasn't just a "ride." I was returning from the SOC Cruise and I was 332 miles from home. 
As it was, I stopped (more like collapsed) after 225 miles and spent the night at a Motel 6. I left early the next morning and finally made it home by 10am. I remember those final 107 miles taking 3 hrs. to go through the San Francisco Bay Area in Monday morning commuter traffic. My only "souvenir" was one helluva Farmer's Tan/burn! 
Trust me, I avoid taking Speedy out of her locker whenever the forecast is more than 90 degrees.
