Spark plug wire came off while driving

Approximate dimensions of the Spring, please.

I used to use plug wires with those hard, phenolic plug ends and soft umbrella boots and the only thing I ever had to do with them was push the plug wire out beyond the end of the hard plastic end and crimp the end connector a little tighter so it would clip on to the spark plug screw-on cap, pull the wire/end back into the hard shell and put it back on the plug.  

On the plug end of the wire should be a rudimentary terminator that looks like a small cylinder with a bump or two around it.  It is designed to push onto the top cap of the spark plug and should have about a 3/16" ID with a split down the side (to allow for expansion onto the cap).  Sometimes, over time, those terminators expand a bit too much and get loose, so just crimping them slightly smaller with a pair of pliers usually makes a tighter connection.  They should "click" onto the plug cap when they're about the right ID.  Some engines use plugs with that end cap removed and the plug wire pushes on to the threaded top of the plug.  VWs are not like that and use the screw-on top cap for their plug wires.

 I had one of my wires fall off last Autumn - Ran like crap all the way home and the wire was just lying on the heat shield.  My plug ends are "Ball" ends that fit into the hole  for the plug and the ends are all molded silicon, but otherwise pretty much the same as yours.  

Common failure, common fix.

I never encountered a spring like that in a spark plug wire.

Depending on size (and if you have Webers or Dellorto carbs) it almost looks like the spring for the accelerator pump actuator rod.  Like 3/16" OD and 1-1/2" - 2" long?

I bet the spring with the center wire is from the spark plug connector --- and is now toast.  See if it fits inside it.  I'd go with a quality complete new set of silicon plug wires

I had a plug wire fall off this spring. It wasn't snapped on correctly. Like Gordon said, common problem, easy fix. If the spring is indeed from the plug wire(and you can easily verify this by looking at another one) just buy a new set of wires.

Make sure you put them back in the same order, if 1 and 2 get reversed, the car will run. Like crap, but it will run.....ask me how I know. I'll tell you over a beer some time.

Gordon,

The spring is 3/16 O.D x 1 3/16 long. Are these the springs for the accelerator pump actuator rod? ( sorry, I'm not sure):

Wolfgang,

 Here are a couple of pics of the plug wire end:

I don't see the copper fitting like you posted in your reply. I did try to push the wire through per Gordon's suggestion, but I can get the wire to budge. Should I try to put the spring inside the plug end? I pulled of the other plug wire on that side of the engine, and it looks exactly the same as the other one - no spring in sight.

 Does anyone have a link for a good set of plug wires for our cars. Now the car won't even start....sigh.

Bill

That spring came out of the end of the plug wire, I'm pretty sure.

Doesn't match your Dell accelerator pump rod spring. And besides, your spring is still in place on your carb!

Bosch - $40 or Pertronics Flame Thrower $42 (8mm ones on sale at CIP1 for $38).

Hi Danny,

 I'm pretty clueless when it comes to car engines, so I just wanted to verify if those pics of the springs were in fact the accelerator pump rod springs, lol. Trying to learn...

Bill

It's all good Bill. You're learning just fine.

Half the guys on here would have had the car towed. You already figured out the problem.

Here's a Bosch end to show you what the good ones look like

Spring (pun) for a set of new plug wires...….

 I can't tell you how much I appreciate the help fellas - thanks a lot. I'm going to order the wires that Wolfgang suggested (thanks Wolfgang).

Since I'm ordering the wires, and I hate to spend money on shipping, I'm thinking I'd order an electronic ignition as well, since I'd been planning on having this done at some point anyway. I'd never be able to replace points myself - I have a tremor that would not allow me to do the work, even if I knew how.

 Is this the one I need: ( Per-1847-A)

 Is this something that someone who is not very competent (I'm being kind to myself here) would be able to do? I have a blue Bosch coil - will that work with this kit, or do I need to replace the coil too? 

 I figure I don't have anything to lose at this point, as the car won't start anyway.

 Bill

Alan Merklin posted:

Spring (pun) for a set of new plug wires...….

 

Funny, but he's also right.  It's cheap and a sure way to know.  Change the wires one at a time to ensure that you don't mess up the order and do a "Danny".

I'm guessing the previous owner had trouble keeping that plug wire on, too, so they jury-rigged putting the spring on the plug and the wire on the spring - which somehow managed to work, sort of, until sometime yesterday afternoon.

It looks like the rubber boot around the wire isn't allowing the wire to quite reach the plug enough, causing the wire to keep popping off the plug. Just start over with new plug wires.

You say you don't work on cars much, so you may not know that spark plugs have threaded ends, for use with the kind of plug wire with a little wire clip built into the end - like the photo that Danny posted:

But there's another kind of plug wire with ends that look like this:

If you use wires like that, then you have to also use the little nipples that are included with most spark plugs. They screw right onto the spark plugs and provide the 'ball' fitting needed for this type of wire:

Good luck!

Sacto Mitch posted:

 

I'm guessing the previous owner had trouble keeping that plug wire on, too, so they jury-rigged putting the spring on the plug and the wire on the spring - which somehow managed to work, sort of, until sometime yesterday afternoon.

It looks like the rubber boot around the wire isn't allowing the wire to quite reach the plug enough, causing the wire to keep popping off the plug. Just start over with new plug wires.

You say you don't work on cars much, so you may not know that spark plugs have threaded ends, for use with the kind of plug wire with a little wire clip built into the end - like the photo that Danny posted:

But there's another kind of plug wire with ends that look like this:

If you use wires like that, then you have to also use the little nipples that are included with most spark plugs. They screw right onto the spark plugs and provide the 'ball' fitting needed for this type of wire:

 

Good luck!

 

Thanks For that Mitch - pictures always do someone like me good!

 There was no previous owner, so that would be Kirk and the guys doing the jury - rigging. Nothing would surprise me, as I've had my share of woes in the short 1300 miles it's been driven. I've managed to fix most of the stuff, besides the trans and the turn signal stalk (which must be tricky because the shop that put in a new stalk didn't fix it completely either!)

 At least I should be able to do the wires and, hopefully, the electronic ignition too. 

 Bill

I’ll repeat that I have never seen a spring like that in the connector of a spark plug wire. The only time I’ve seen a spring used was as a “universal” connection adapter on “economy” versions of timing lights and then only used during testing (because the whole concept basically sucks).  I doubt that the spring and plug wire failure are related. 

Regardless, it sounds like that plug wire is toast, so get a new set of wires and go forward from there.

Your existing coil should be just fine with the new wires AND if you install a Pertronix module.  I will say that I am not a big fan of Pertronix products (for sparkplug wires I use Taylor) but a lot of people use them with good service, so there you go.

Once you get the module, read all of the installation instructions and decide if it is something you wish to tackle.  Ask any questions on here and maybe we can help.  If, in the end, you decide it’s more than you want to try at this juncture, any decent mechanic should be able to do it for you.  

Get correct new spark plugs and do them at the same time.  Buy a tube of dielectric silicone grease.  Use it where the plug extension fits on the spark plug.  I also use a little anti-seize compound (a tube) on the spark plugs to ensure the steel doesn't seize to the aluminum heads.  Make sure the rotor and the distributor cap are in good shape (not pitted or burned).  Save old points/rotor/cap as a spare for BU.

Do not cross thread plugs or over tighten plugs.  I use a short piece of rubber hose to start the plugs in the head. And remove plugs with one with a rubber insert that prevents plug from dropping into the cooling tins (It will waste an hour getting it out!)

Mash one of the old plug attachment brown bits and see if there is a compressed spring-like piece in there.  Be nice to solve the mystery.

Gordon beat me to it.

If the last techs to work on the car were at VS, it's possible they used the spring while setting the timing and forgot to remove it. The "right, front" plug (usually called 'number one') is the one used for timing the engine, although the spring would normally be hooked up at the distributor end of the wire (which is a lot easier to reach).

And as Gordon implies, the spring is a kind of wonky way to hook up a timing light. Pro mechanics use lights with 'inductive' clamp-on connectors.

I will mention, however, having suffered the slings and arrows of some outrageous VS wrenching throughout my five years of ownership, that I am no longer completely surprised by any degree of wonkiness on their part.

Lane Anderson posted:

Alan Merklin posted:

Spring (pun) for a set of new plug wires...….

 

Funny, but he's also right.  It's cheap and a sure way to know.  Change the wires one at a time to ensure that you don't mess up the order and do a "Danny".

Lane, it wasn't me or on my car. Max and Rocky were involved, and I had to clean up the mess. So you might want to call it doing a "Rocky" instead.

It is possible that if you have dual carbs with crossbar linkage, that spring "may" have been inside the crossbar. There is a spring on both sides that keeps the linkage centered between the carbs on some linkages.

Thanks Greg!

Well, I spit the whole thing out the other day, plug with wire attached.  Crazy fun for a few minutes.  Toughest part was figuring out how to reload that mighty damn hot plug.  But I managed and was on down the road in a few mins.  Must always carry tools.

Thanks for all information fellas - sounds like I have a couple more things to check out with regards to that orphan spring. I had to help my younger daughter move a couch, so things went on hold for a bit (that and doing all I could to keep up with one of my grandkids - 15 months and always going full speed  - just boundless energy!)

 Gordon, do you have a recommendation for electronic ignition module other than a Pertronix?  I'm going to order a module and read the instructions - I'll try to find a you tube video or an article on the process too. If it seems like something I could probably do, I'll at least try it. If not, I'll take the parts to a mechanic.

It makes sense to do the plugs as long as I'm doing the wires - anyone have recommendations for plugs? I might as well get everything ordered all at once.

Thanks again for all the help everyone!

 Bill

See what plugs are in their now - there are the new small 12mm plugs and the older 14mm plugs.  Then there are 1/2" reach and 3/4" reach plugs.  Then heat range.  I prefer Bosch or NGK plugs. Resistor or non-resistor.

I honestly do not believe that you need new spark plugs at 1,300 miles, UNLESS they are the wrong heat range.  Pull one plug, read what it says on the porcelain and if it shows a 7 or 8 you’re all set.  Put it right back in and don’t bother with “anti-seize” on the threads UNLESS you use the copper-based anti-seize stuff.  Regular anti-seize inhibits electrical conductivity and makes for a weaker spark, Copper-based completes an electrical connection.

You have a failed spark plug wire terminator, that’s it.   Happens all the time.  Fix the wire you have or install a new set of spark plug wires - Either approach will work.  Leave the existing plugs in there.

True, I am not a fan of Pertronics products, mostly because they tend to be heat sensitive and fail prematurely, especially in aircooled VW products - They tend to fail above 200°F.  But there are alternatives and each usually requires a specific “approved” coil or distributor to work with it.  Pertronics “supposedly” can work with “any” coil  (no surprise, there) but be aware that you’ll probably need to do a wee bit or re-wiring to make it all work.  Perhaps the same with a MagnaSpark, so from that perspective either will work.  If you live North of, say, Kentucky, your ambient temps should be OK and either one will last for years.  Just put a spare module in your “spares” kit.

A Pertronix module is certainly better than a set of points for most of us, so give it a shot.  

I live north of Kentucky. It was 93*F here today, on Sept. 17. It gets hot on the plains.

  I pulled one of the plugs just to see what I have - it's a Bosch R10. Other markings are WR8 AC Russia. Are these decent plugs? I've always liked NGK's for my various outboard engines over the years.

 I took some pics, in part, to show the unusual (to me) tips on these plugs - is this kind of tip the norm for these engines, or does it just depend on the plug wire used. There's a kind of keyway on the very tip that doesn't seem to correspond to any type receptacle for the key on the plug wire end.

  It also seems like there's a fair bit of fouling on the plug - do you guys this a tune up is in order? The car seemed to run fine until I had the plug wire problem.

 Here's the pics:

Bill

The top of the plug looks like the end of the wire pulled off and is stuck on it.  Am I seeing that right?

Yes, Lane, I think you are.  

Looks a little funky, and also like the kind of plug wire end that's designed to slip onto the threaded end of the plug after the top cap is removed.  Those were popular with lawn mowers and some snowmobiles years ago.  I wonder if it can be pulled off or unthreaded to expose the cap threads?  Just grasp the end with a pair of pliers and it should, with small effort, pull right off.

Looks like a new set of plugs AND plug wires are in order because most plug wires I've seen expect to see the screwed-on cap on the top of the plug.  Just be careful that the new wires are compatible with your distributor cap (or buy a compatible cap, too).

The WR8 AC is an OK heat range and similar to what I'm running.  Bosch plugs are fine for these engines, too, or NGK with a similar heat range, if you prefer - either will be fine, just make sure they're compatible with your new wires (they should be, anyway).

I went out and pulled the plug after I saw both of your responses. You guys are right - the end piece on the tip pulls off - just threads on top of the plug. Can I use these plugs or should I replace them?

 more pics:

Bill

OK, so there are two kinds of spark plug wire ends.

One is like what you've now pulled off and it expects to press onto the threads of the stud at the top of the plug.  When you press them on they go "zzzziiiip!" as you press them home.   That thing you removed from the plug is supposed to be crimped to the end of the spark plug wire, but yours has failed, somehow, and is no longer useable.  If you could get a new end termination and a decent crimp tool and can get the wire pushed out of the plastic end, you might be able to salvage it.  

The other type of plug wire end looks like a small cylinder and is designed to press onto the screw-on cap supplied with the spark plug.  You screw the cap onto the plug top threads and press the plug wire end onto that with a "Click!" or "pop".  

Either design works well.  You just have to know which plug wires you have to decide whether or not you need that little cap screwed onto the plug or not.  When you buy new plugs, they usually come with the end cap included to use or toss.  

If you choose a set of new plug wires that have the same plug end as you have now, you can simply replace the wires with new, replace that plug and you're done.  If, instead, you buy  set of wires that expect to mate to the screw-on top cap, you'll have to get four top caps somewhere, like a local mechanic who does tune-ups - Just take them off of used plugs.....They're pretty universal.

There might be several reasons for that plug wire to fail, but it's usually a poor crimp to the end terminator.  It happens.

To simplify things and then know what you have, I would probably get a new set of plugs (they're cheap), same heat range (Bosch 8) and a new set of plug wires, make sure caps and ends are compatible when you use them, then install them and go for a drive.

 Thanks so much for all the info Gordon. I ordered the Pertronix 8042 Flamethrower 8mm when I first got up this morning. Hopefully they have the more traditional plug wire ends that I'm used to seeing, as I'm not to impressed with the other type plug wire ends as far as durability goes.

 The plug I removed was actually one that supposedly had a good plug wire attached to it. I removed that plug just because it was easier access. If that plug wire is now ruined too, it was damaged by me simply taking the wire off the plug - geez.

 I also ordered the Pertronix electronic ignition - we'll see how that goes. I won't even try that until I get the car running again.

 Thanks again for all the help!

Bill

I have a spark plug cleaner from way back (<$12).  It  clips to a 12v battery - push plug in a rubber surrounded opening and hit the button.  It blast the plug with carbide sand.  They come out like new.  Geeze Russian Bosch plugs!

I question the need for resistance plugs - especially if one is using resistive plug wires?  I know the "resistors" are used to stop interference on radio reception but seems it also reduces voltage spark.

One doesn't need both resistance plugs and resistive wires - one or the other.  Neither is needed if you don't have a radio, although you may piss off other drivers near you.

“...although you may piss off other drivers near you.”

Hee hee, sounds like fun! 😈

I don't believe resistor plugs or wires drop the voltage your plug gets at all. The resistance is simply there to attenuate noise. The voltage your plugs get is a factor of number of coil windings and dwell time.

PS: there doesn't appear to be anything wrong with those plugs to me. Looks like it spent a little time idling rich and then the wire pulled off is all.

NGK plugs don't usually include the little screw-on adapters if I recall. I have enough that I could mail you some in an envelope, just need the address if you really need them. ANY competent commercial mechanic shop should have them though, rolling around in a drawer.

I use NGK, but Bosch are fine. NGK is a B5HS, or a BP5HS(projected tip: runs better according to some). The B is 14mm, 5 is the heat range(corresponds to Bosch 8). The H signifies 1/2" reach(threads). 

I think I read that NGK plugs have rolled threads and Bosch plugs have cut threads.  Rolled may be more gentle to our aluminum heads.

DannyP posted:

PS: there doesn't appear to be anything wrong with those plugs to me. Looks like it spent a little time idling rich and then the wire pulled off is all.

NGK plugs don't usually include the little screw-on adapters if I recall. I have enough that I could mail you some in an envelope, just need the address if you really need them. ANY competent commercial mechanic shop should have them though, rolling around in a drawer.

I use NGK, but Bosch are fine. NGK is a B5HS, or a BP5HS(projected tip: runs better according to some). The B is 14mm, 5 is the heat range(corresponds to Bosch 8). The H signifies 1/2" reach(threads). 

  Thanks for your help Danny - it was a busy day for me today, but nothing car related.

  I did a search on the forum yesterday for tips on changing the spark plugs, and found a post where Gordon recommended a few tools to make things easier. I ended up ordering a magnetic spark plug socket, a set of wobble extensions, Permatex, and a stubby low profile rachet.

 Sounds like even with that stuff, throwing in a few Hail Mary's wouldn't hurt!

 Bill

I like a short 5" piece of rubber heater hose that fits tightly on the white ceramic of the spark plug.  It greatly aids in installing the plugs without danger of cross threading them.