Anyone have an idea of the cost difference of going with a water cooled vs air cooled motor. I'm expecting my motor to run about $7,000 (CB or Tony's builder) but curious while I'm planning my build what a Subaru motor would cost.
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
Are you doing it yourself or paying someone to build / install a real nice one for you ?
Would you be going for more of a stock Soob engine or do you need mega HP ?
Definitely paying for someone to do it for me! Looking for basic cost - comparable to air cooled motor.
About $10K. The beefier trans is also required to handle the torque.
>
>
>
>
Tom Blankinship posted:About $10K. The beefier trans is also required to handle the torque.
>
>
Ten bills sounds like a pretty fair price for a shop done job and would likely come with some type of warantee too.
Bwkirk posted:Anyone have an idea of the cost difference of going with a water cooled vs air cooled motor. I'm expecting my motor to run about $7,000 (CB or Tony's builder) but curious while I'm planning my build what a Subaru motor would cost.
What are you thinking about building?
I think if you compare the cost it might slightly more but not excessively when you compare to a 2110cc or bigger engine.
Thanks everyone. It's a consideration...the motor and transaxle for an air cooled motor will cost me about $9K total so a Subaru set up sounds like $2-$4K more. So not much more really. Now I'm trying to determine the advantages to Subaru power versus air cooled. I supposed the biggest benefit is reliability.
Bwkirk posted:Thanks everyone. It's a consideration...the motor and transaxle for an air cooled motor will cost me about $9K total so a Subaru set up sounds like $2-$4K more. So not much more really. Now I'm trying to determine the advantages to Subaru power versus air cooled. I supposed the biggest benefit is reliability.
I'm the resident air-cooled retrogrouch, so you'd think I'd try to talk you into going with a nice, tasty Type 1
... but I'm not going to do that. The Subaru platform is not perfect. There are some problems with any "boxer" engine configuration, be it air-cooled VW or Porsche, or watercooled Porsche or Subaru. They have a tendency to use oil- some more, some less. This is a function of the engine layout. Guys hope that by going with the Subaru platform that they will get 100% bulletproof reliability. The engines are much more robust than a Type 1, but they are still installed in hand-built cars, and are adapted to the application. Nothing custom is fool-proof.
But if you are the kind of guy who would pay somebody to do the work, then I'd recommend going with the Subaru. It's heavier and more complex, but there is an advantage besides reliability, and that is torque.
The engines most builders are putting in these cars now are EJ25 2.5L motors, and they have the advantage of modern combustion chambers, a robust bottom end, and better cooling characteristics (which allows higher compression ratios). This yields a torquier powerband with more "driveability" with a 4 speed transaxle.
I just ran in the mountains with a mix of air-cooled and water-cooled cars. I like some of the advantages of my air-cooled mill-- I like the weight advantage, and the retro-vibe of the package. I can guarantee that my engine makes as much or more HP as a lightly chipped EJ25. But I can also guarantee that I've got 2+ times as much in the engine as a Subaru, and it'll last about 1/2 as long. I love working on this car, and I still got off 10 hours late for the trip because of the king of all plugged idle jets.
For gearheads, I'd say that there's something to talk about regarding the various available engines (Type 1, Type 4, Porsche 6, Subaru). For everybody else- it's a no-brainer.
Get the Subaru.
Stan pretty much covered it all. To add to it- if you're a tinkerer (at times it'll seem like you spend as much time in the garage messing with it as you do driving) and can't see a car like this powered by anything else, then aircooled is the only choice. If you're not mechanically inclined then there's lots to weigh in, including the fact that finding someone to work on an aircooled car (especially someone who knows or is willing to learn the hotrodding part of it) isn't easy these days. For some guys, as Stan said, Subaru is the way to go. Al
All my text disappeared. Anyways, the video is of my 2.2 L Subaru back in 2012. It had a mild cam and good exhaust, about 150 hp. It ran great and sounded awesome. In 2015 I decided to go crazy and upgrade to a 2.5 L turbo engine. It's overkill for most but sometimes power is just addictive. The 175 hp variety is really all you need and it's much less complicated to build.
Attachments
Images (1)
I’m one of only a few people that can say I’ve had both and AC engine and WC engine in the same car.
I started with a 2010 Beck with a 2054 CB, 140 hp engine that I drove for 6 years.
I now have a 2.5L EJ253, 175 hp engine.
My car gained 83 lbs in the conversion.
The biggest issue that I had with the AC wasn’t tinkering, but variability of Powertrain performance over the range of ambient and operating temperatures.
We’re pretty spoiled with modern Powertrains and it’s hard to go back. Most of my driving is enjoying running errands around town, most under 15 minutes. By the time my AC engine was warmed up, I had reached my destination.
The Suby runs perfect every time all the time.
The torque is awesome, which is what gives me my jollies accelerating from stop lights.
I haven’t noticed any difference in handling other than it feels more grounded.
The only real issue I had was the twitchy drive by wire throttle. I’ve been driving manuals all my life and never burned a clutch like I did during my first season. I thought I’d get used to it, but didn’t.
Last Winter, we installed a small electronic device between the pedal and the ECU that allows you to pre-select throttle response curves. I have mine set to off-road 1, which tames the first 30% of travel and has made a world of difference. I had to train myself to put my foot into it when I wanted it, but that’s easier to train than backing off. Now it feels like a turbo kicking in.
When I said $10K, I mean $10K more than an AC setup.
>
>
I started with a 2010 Beck with a 2054 CB, 140 hp engine that I drove for 6 years.
I now have a 2.5L EJ253, 175 hp engine.
My car gained 83 lbs in the conversion.
The biggest issue that I had with the AC wasn’t tinkering, but variability of Powertrain performance over the range of ambient and operating temperatures.
We’re pretty spoiled with modern Powertrains and it’s hard to go back. Most of my driving is enjoying running errands around town, most under 15 minutes. By the time my AC engine was warmed up, I had reached my destination.
The Suby runs perfect every time all the time.
The torque is awesome, which is what gives me my jollies accelerating from stop lights.
I haven’t noticed any difference in handling other than it feels more grounded.
The only real issue I had was the twitchy drive by wire throttle. I’ve been driving manuals all my life and never burned a clutch like I did during my first season. I thought I’d get used to it, but didn’t.
Last Winter, we installed a small electronic device between the pedal and the ECU that allows you to pre-select throttle response curves. I have mine set to off-road 1, which tames the first 30% of travel and has made a world of difference. I had to train myself to put my foot into it when I wanted it, but that’s easier to train than backing off. Now it feels like a turbo kicking in.
When I said $10K, I mean $10K more than an AC setup.
>
>
Ins't true that you had to take out and sell yourAC engine etc so your cost had to be more that doing it the first time ... just saying
I. built a new car completely with subie andtranny
Ray did you go with the Suby tranny as Tom Marantz did?
Tom Blankinship posted:
When I said $10K, I mean $10K more than an AC setup.
>
>
Can we clarify this please ? BWKIRK says it might cost him about $9K for his AC engine and tranny.....and Tom says add $10K more to that for a good basic Soob conversion ? In other words....and I just want to clarify, if a person brought a car to a capable shop with no engine or transmission in it and had a 2.5 L Soob engine and a suitable, beefed up VW transmission put into it the cost would be in the $19K range ?
Low mileage Subbie engines are readily available from wrecks or JDM for around $1k. Many are low mileage and won't need a rebuild). You do need the wiring, ECU and many sensors. Just getting the wiring harness modified is $600 then there is the Subbie engine to vw trans adapter and flywheel another $600 --- then the radiator/cooling lines. Using a Subaru 5 speed transmission (6 speed is now available) is ideal but you'd have 5 reverse gears so you need to replace the R&P with reversed gears plus a mount and shift linkage - this adds up fast (see SubaruGears for details - mount $500, rebuilt trans $4k).
8http://www.sandiegoreplicas.com/single-post/2016/08/24/A-transaxle-swap-to-cure-your-4-speed-agonies
@chines1
>
>
>
>
What Stan says is truth. Torque. You also get mileage, because modern EFI systems are no-compromise. You also get ease of maintenance. No annual valve adjustments, etc. No nonsense about zddp in your oil, and where do I get the green Brad Penn, etc. Just change the oil and filter about once a season with a decent dino or synthetic, as specified on the oil cap. No points. No Pertronix failures: you have a modern crankfire ignition, so if it's good, it will likely stay good for another 100,000 miles at least.
For $200 you can plumb in a real heater, which will work. A/C also.
The downside: You'll need a radiator. In the front. That eats up precious space, maybe where your spare tire was supposed to go. (You need this thing up front, not back with the engine. This is a fact and should not ever be discounted). You'll be obligated to change out the coolant every few years. This can be a chore, depending on how your coolant lines are routed. It's also likely to be very tricky to anyone who has never worked on the car before. So learn the technique, write it down and keep that paper handy for reference.
More weight: 75-100 lbs. Not huge but still.
Costs: The additional install cost should pay back within a few years because of all the saved regular maintenance, plus the relative lack of unscheduled gremlins like clogged idle jets and such.
Engine: $1,000
stuff for the engine (short oil pan, oil separator plate, head gaskets, timing belt): $1,500
KEP: $700 or so
Electronics: $800 (or more)
Cooling: $1,500
Exhaust: $1,000
Type 1 box with 3.44 R&P + normal beef-up: $1,500
Contingencies (custom intake box, new MAF, throttle cable or whatever etc. & soforth) @10%: $800
Total: $8,800
Install: 20-25 hours. What's your mechanic charge per hour? I'm gonna low-ball it at $100, because, even though the guy who can do this could rightly charge $400 an hour for the custom work, the type of guy who actually does do this kind of thing likes doing it so much he's most often apologetic about asking for the hundred.
$2,500
Total pro-forma Edstimate (TM): $11,300
Obvs if you're swapping out a stout AC engine you can skip the trans job and sell the old lump for something: $3,500, say, at least. So a swap is gonna net-out more in the $6-$7k range.
And of course if you're David Stroud you can do the whole thing for like fifty bucks and a case of Strohs....
In the K.I.S.S. world of Musbjim, and to lessen the high probability of this topic becoming a 20-page filibuster... just buy a Subaru and have it wrapped to look like a 356! 
Now what fun would that be@MusbJim