Skip to main content

No rush because my car isn't ready for an engine yet (color me impatient ) but I wanted to get thoughts on the available options. I don't know yet what the planned details are for my car outside a EF2.5.  I of course have been reading up on the variants, issues, etc of these engine (plus some cool YouTube videos of various engine builders, good stuff) and thought the collection of wisdom here might be useful.

Anyone considered a 2.0 vs 2.5 and having closed deck block halves used? OutFront Motors is the supplier for my car and they have some nice looking bits on their site.  I plan not to track this car as aside from having really zero safety features it's plastic after all.  But I do want an engine that can last for the long haul, not trouble me with blown head gaskets or other historical challenges sometimes found in these boxers.

The 2.0 supposedly cool a little better due to more metal around the cylinder liners FWIW but the stiffer deck, even in a NA engine, gets commented on for being much less likely to blow gaskets.

Anyone have the oil pickup upgraded as this is another item that seems trivial to address before the engine is put together? Supposedly Subaru added some baffles in the sump to keep oil from sloshing where it's not supposed to so guessing that's standard but some folks say even a simple windage tray might even add a few hp from less oil frothing etc.

Any other things that a semi motor-head geek might want to know?  Eager to hear Subie owner experiences.

thanks

Last edited by msjulie
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Hi Julie,

As your research likely showed, there are 3 versions of a Subaru block available regarding strength and cooling: open deck (which is standard, except for early 2.0 turbos), semi-closed, and closed deck.  The difference is the addition of sleeve or billet material that is added to the block to form a larger and stronger surface area for the head and block to seal.  Stronger surface area means less flex or lifting.

The prevailing theory is that head gasket failure can be reduced if the mating surfaces don't flex, especially with high horsepower and/or high boost.  In addition to adding material to the block, larger and higher quality head bolts help to insure that the heads don't move or lift under extreme load.

The downside is that the added material reduces the space for coolant to contact the cylinder walls.  Not surprisingly, Outfront says their closed deck blocks don't overheat.  That may be true in a Subaru vehicle, but our replicas place an added cooling burden on both the 2.0 and 2.5 versions, by virtue of the body configuration, tight engine compartment, and radiator placement.

Since you don't mention turbo or high HP, only reliability and longevity, I think a closed deck block is a poor choice for your needs, since you want the most efficient cooling options for your replica.  A semi-closed deck retains most of the open cooling channels, and would give you the advantage of a stronger mating surface with little reduction in cooling efficiency.

I purchased a Killer B oil pickup and pan with windage tray and was not disappointed, as they correct the weak points of Subaru design for our applications.  Be aware that an oil cooler and fan will also lower coolant temps, as well as oil temps, and are a smart investment for our replicas with Subaru engines.   

You will have lots of choices as you go forward.  Reaching out to this forum is a smart move, but, if you make all the right choices on your initial application, you will be the first person to do so.

Please keep the group informed as you move forward.  That's how we all learn.  Best of luck!

Last edited by Jim Kelly

@msjulie , who is building your car?

@msjulie posted:

No rush because my car isn't ready for an engine yet (color me impatient ) but I wanted to get thoughts on the available options. I don't know yet what the planned details are for my car outside a EF2.5.  I of course have been reading up on the variants, issues, etc of these engine (plus some cool YouTube videos of various engine builders, good stuff) and thought the collection of wisdom here might be useful.

Anyone considered a 2.0 vs 2.5 and having closed deck block halves used? OutFront Motors is the supplier for my car and they have some nice looking bits on their site.  I plan not to track this car as aside from having really zero safety features it's plastic after all.  But I do want an engine that can last for the long haul, not trouble me with blown head gaskets or other historical challenges sometimes found in these boxers.

The 2.0 supposedly cool a little better due to more metal around the cylinder liners FWIW but the stiffer deck, even in a NA engine, gets commented on for being much less likely to blow gaskets.

Anyone have the oil pickup upgraded as this is another item that seems trivial to address before the engine is put together? Supposedly Subaru added some baffles in the sump to keep oil from sloshing where it's not supposed to so guessing that's standard but some folks say even a simple windage tray might even add a few hp from less oil frothing etc.

Any other things that a semi motor-head geek might want to know?  Eager to hear Subie owner experiences.

thanks

regarding the BRZ and other newer Suby motors, there is a workaround by using an emulator to trick the ECU, however, as far as I know there is only one source for them, out of Australia,  and when I was first looking into them they were still pretty new.  The idea of having your entire driveline reliant on a single part with a single supplier that is over 5000 mile away was just a bit too much for me.

Regarding the EJ25, we take a lot of extra steps to ensure they are as trouble free as possible.  I don't advertise everything that we have done to a motor,  but I'll say that we address head gaskets, heads, valves, oil pump, oil pan, pick up tube, baffles, and some others.  The EJ25s have not been 100% without issue, but we've been able to resolve the things we've encountered over the years and to date have not had any head gasket issues.

As for Outfront, I've used a few of their motors in the past and I was very happy with them overall, however I wanted more usability and found that in the stock ECU, which led us to the packages we recommend now.  In addition, there are some states that actually check the engine number, and a JDM motor has to be EPA certified and approved for use in the US.  Fortunately for most Suby users, 90% of the states don't bother checking the engine number, and this is how so many get away with using them.  Hell, my daughter may even have a JDM in her bugeye...  ;-)

I'd listen to Carey on this one.

99.9% of Subaru customers have no desire to mess with programming, curves, tables, VVT, and drivability issues.

For people like Stan, Mike P, and I there are aftermarket ECUs, but from my experience so far they require BUCKETS of time to tune properly. VVT control is available, even in the cheap Speeduino. I'd probably have no idea how to implement it, but it's available.

I absolutely want the stock tune in my car, to be honest the engine has overkill horsepower for this car For Me compared to most air-cooled options and I want it to be under stressed and under worked in it's role in the Speedster.   I've had tuned turbo cars and they were for the purpose of going faster but this car is for enjoying the road at a more leisurely pace.

@chines1 would you suggest that I ask for any particular details for my engine? I want a 'boring' engine ie one that turns on every time I ask it, can take a long highway drive as needed (I plan to drive mine home from VM which is about 5-6 hours depending) and won't leak fluids on the ground or in places they should not be

Thanks all for the thoughts, learning is fun

@msjulie posted:

I absolutely want the stock tune in my car, to be honest the engine has overkill horsepower for this car For Me compared to most air-cooled options and I want it to be under stressed and under worked in it's role in the Speedster.   I've had tuned turbo cars and they were for the purpose of going faster but this car is for enjoying the road at a more leisurely pace.

@chines1 would you suggest that I ask for any particular details for my engine? I want a 'boring' engine ie one that turns on every time I ask it, can take a long highway drive as needed (I plan to drive mine home from VM which is about 5-6 hours depending) and won't leak fluids on the ground or in places they should not be

Thanks all for the thoughts, learning is fun

For what you desire I think you'd be happiest with a stock 2006/2007 EJ25, or at least  a built motor that was controlled via all stock sensors and a stock EJ25 ECU with a stock Subaru wiring harness modified to fit the speedster (they get modified same as a Vanagon swap).  I also like to keep the stock intake plenum, airbox, etc... as it seems to play a strong part in idle stabilization and recovery.  Its been my experience that you just can't get close to how reliable and easy the stock ECU is to live with.  It does things like cold start and idle stabilization, and AC kick-up, and self tuning, just like it was still in the donor Impreza.

And thats not to say you wouldn't be happy with a Stinger ECU and a JDM motor, I know lots of people who are, I just found that my particular client base did not want or need the features of the aftermarket ECUs and they were more of a detriment than a benefit.  Plus, we fond that with he stock ECU and retaining the OBD-II diagnostics port, you can scan the ECU yourself with a simple scanner form Amazon (if you don't have one) and the shops can do the same...  to me it just makes life easier.

@chines1 posted:

regarding the BRZ and other newer Suby motors, there is a workaround by using an emulator to trick the ECU, however, as far as I know there is only one source for them, out of Australia,  and when I was first looking into them they were still pretty new.

There's no way I'd use that if I were building cars for a living, but for a guy who wants something on the bleeding edge - do you have any more information, Carey?

Last edited by Stan Galat

@msjulie I have an OutFront EJ-25 motor in my VMC Pre-A coupe (delivered this fall I think-hope-pray). I have lots of notes on why I went Subaru and which motor with which mods in my build thread (here's a link: LINK).  I've used the thread to capture some of my thinking on each of the car's systems and share it.  I was just working on a post about the engine management aspects of the car for that thread that I hope to have up soon.  In a nutshell I have a US EJ-25 block with head mods and a Stinger ECU (now branded as Link I believe).  The unit has 4 auxiliary outputs that will drive a cold start solenoid, fan on/off for temp, fan on with AC clutch, and that kind of thing.  John has done a lot of tunes on these, and even more since working with Carey, so I'm confident he'll give me what we talked about.  Carey has got a point, if you're building lots of Suby powered things then a stock ECU with the fly-by wire pedal is the easy button that guarantees the most customer satisfaction for the least amount of worry and has almost universal DMV approval.  With what I have coming the base tune was loaded before the engine was delivered.  Once the car is ready to be driven on the road, the engine will be fine tuned on the dyno before delivery.

I was lucky enough to ride in a sand-rail with an OutFront Suby similar to mine (no AC of course, and no cold start solenoid). It ran great! Turn the key, push the button, and rup-rup-rup down off the trailer. It sat there idling smooth as silk with an ambient temp of 50 degrees (and had sat on the trailer for a week before that start).  It idled and purred through what I guess one could call the paddock area like it was mom's station wagon, then got to the dunes and RIPPED!  It was like that all weekend with cool morning temps and searing hot afternoons, hot starts, cold starts, it just didn't matter. I was really impressed. I would also point one towards Michael Pickett's FI system he built for an air-cooled type one motor to calm fears that ECU tuning is really hard.  It's like this: Some folks like Stan and Danny are good at, and want to tune carbs. I did it on race bikes and I don't want to do it anymore. I know the whole computer aspect of tuning Fi is a turn-off for some, but other folks like to fiddle with the timing and mixture from a laptop (I probably fall into this band of weird-o's although I don't anticipate messing much with this one).  Many (most) don't want to fool around at all.  ANY good FI system will be a better choice for the last group.  A stock system will be the easiest to diagnose (CAN-bus port) when a sensor fails.  It's the simplest option if one can live with a drive by wire throttle and what the stock ECU does to induce throttle lag, etc. That's what killed that option for me. I HATED what the ECU would do when trying to heel and toe my MINI. The direct coupling of accelerator pedal to throttle butterfly is something I miss and feel is critical to the vintage driving experience.

Lastly, there is always a lot of fear about cooling. The beautiful nose of a speedster doesn't allow for a Mack truck upright radiator. The piping is long, and designing a system that doesn't trap air is an issue to be sure. I have confidence that Carey and Greg have worked all this out over many-many quality builds. But I will add my two cents.  Cooling isn't just a function of how much radiator and how much volume.  It is also a function of how stressed the motor is during use. Part of what makes these such a nice application for us is that a stock, or near stock, EJ-25 is under stressed in the extreme.  The car is half the weight of a fully loaded Suby station wagon. A free flowing exhaust and intake will also help (an engine is also cooled by the air that passes through it).  So I'm not any more worried than I am with any of my daily drivers. With a good system in place it all comes down to maintenance and having a good sense of mechanical simpatico for your car.

Hope that helps!

-Michael

@Stan Galat posted:

There's no way I'd use that if I were building cars for a living, but for a guy who wants something on the bleeding edge - do you have any more information, Carey?

Stan the SubaruGears teamed up with Subatech in the beginning but no longer I think they are now called.

https://www.agtengineering.com.au

https://www.agtengineering.com.au/engine-conversions

I am not completely sure but they make conversions to run pretty much any Subie engine in any car.

My issue has always been that the 2L BRZ only makes torque spinning at such a high RPM, I can't see the logic going with that engine.  There are so many 2.5L NA engines available

If you look here https://smallcar.com/latest-subaru-engines/  they have a list of engines that you can choose and they will modify the harness to meet your needs.

I would ensure they leave the Cruise control wiring but you could easily add it to the ECU plugs / 8 wires.

In any case there are enough older engines that you could rebuild without a problem but a new engine from a wreck is the only way that you could get one then you need electronics to fool the Immobilizer.  In any case you cannot buy a crate engine from Subaru if you could many would do it.   Carey buys a short block and uses the heads and the VIN from a REAL car that has been wrecked.

Subaru Engine List

@IaM-Ray posted:

Sure seems to help when you have millions of cars with the same setup out there in the world with the stock ECU which makes Subaru the biggest or most experienced tuner so to speak

Its hard to compete with Subaru in term of engineering and tuning their own motors, especially when stock is more than adequate in most cases and we're not trying to squeeze every extra HP possible.

The subie Tuner that I use has asked me many times if I want to have a tune of the stock ECU but with my K&N and custom exhaust they tell me the hp improvement would be minimal.  They have extensive knowledge of Stinger but have moved to Atom or Link if I remember right and someone on the Quebec side has a spyder that they did up with and Atom ECU.  They find them much more tunable.  The owner of the shop holds multple rally championships and sells all over America.  These were the guys who advised me against believing anyone who said they could get over 200hp with a stock NA.  

In any case,  for an owner who wants to turn the key and go, and cruise, it is a solid option and what is not to like about the torque curve and drive by wire.

Carey had a suggestion on changing the pedal sensor curve, so I bought a module to vary the curve but the ECU kept throwing a code and going into limp mode.

So if you do not like the rheostat stock ECU throttle positioning and response, you could get a tuning package for the stock ECu to allow you to modify only that parameter... a bit expensive but dooable.  

Last edited by IaM-Ray

i had vw 's in my youth....and was a semi-expert whether i wanted to be or not....which is why (no offence to the vw guys)...i went with SUBARU power....with a STINGER brain ....i have been reading these comments and it is all gibberish to me since i know zero about this engine....along with all the EFI  etc stuff...all i know is 7K miles in and it is TURN KEY.....zero tinkering so far....which makes me smile ....if and when needed i will be calling the OUTFRONT guy for expert help living by my own advice of "save your dough & hire a pro"    happy motoring to all!

@chines1 posted:

I was not aware of the other 3, the really early "meaneye" we always referred to as the RS and I guess I don't do enough with the motors out of the later cars to know them, although my youngest owns a Stinkeye Impreza so now I have that ammo in reserve

Raptoreye?  Never heard of that descriptor for the newer WRX/STI.

I just ended my lease on a 2018 STI, and leased a 2021 STI.  Great cars for driving when the Intermeccanica can't be taken out.

@IaM-Ray posted:
Carey buys a short block and uses the heads and the VIN from a REAL car that has been wrecked.

With my new Spyder in the build queue at Special Edition there's no detail too small for me to be interested. The sentence above caught me eye, and I think that may be out of date, but perhaps this is not mutually exclusive with the below that Carey Hines wrote in a different post on this forum:

"We already use a brand new US OEM complete short block.  It was part of our deal with Subaru/FUJI and they ship them to us directly from Japan still wrapped in the factory paper and crate...  this also gives us a factory direct Subaru warranty on the engine!"

I'm also interested in learning more about the throttle pedal being electronically connected to the engine vice the old-fashioned way?

Lastly, can someone post some photos of a Suby engine in a recent Special Edition Spyder please?

Thanks!

Last edited by Foleydb

I'm also interested in learning more about the throttle pedal being electronically connected to the engine vice the old-fashioned way?



Old way: throttle cable directly connected to throttle body.

New way: Gas pedal has a potentiometer(variable resistor) and a heavy spring.

Throttle body has a stepper motor attached directly to drive the throttle plate.

Electronic controls and wires in-between the two, hence drive-by-wire. The benefit is possibly quicker throttle response and other things that mileage misers(EPA) want. The idle speed control is super easy this way with the throttle controlled by the ECU.

Last edited by DannyP
@DannyP posted:
.

Old way: throttle cable directly connected to throttle body.

New way: Gas pedal has a potentiometer(variable resistor) and a heavy spring.

Throttle body has a stepper motor attached directly to drive the throttle plate.

Electronic controls and wires in-between the two, ..

The benefit is possibly quicker throttle response…



This always sounded to me like there were too many engineers on the payroll.

@DannyP posted:

Old way: throttle cable directly connected to throttle body.

New way: Gas pedal has a potentiometer(variable resistor) and a heavy spring.

Throttle body has a stepper motor attached directly to drive the throttle plate.

Electronic controls and wires in-between the two, hence drive-by-wire. The benefit is possibly quicker throttle response and other things that mileage misers(EPA) want. The idle speed control is super easy this way with the throttle controlled by the ECU.

There are other advantages as well: cruise control is super easy, etc. The problem (as you pointed out) is the complexity, and the fact that it takes a mechanical connection to the car, and gives control to a bot.

Doing this with a throttle has very few negative ramifications. But once you start down the road, it's easy to give more and more high level function to the ECUs. We've had braking by wire for a while, and are entering into steering by wire (electrically assisted racks make this easy). This is how anti-lock brakes and traction control and crash avoidance and lane assist work - by giving the machine control of the vehicle if the sensors indicate imminent danger. The manufacturers and general public assume everyone is a terrible driver, and really needs/wants something infallible to do it for them.

The automotive press (or what passes for it these days) cheers this on, getting all tingly with "launch control" and "torque vectoring" and with the relentless focus on the fact that a Ferrari (or Corvette or Nissan Juke) ECU and solenoid pack can shift faster than you can. They give lip service to leaving high-level functionality with the driver, but their heart really isn't in it.

High-level functions (steering, braking, etc.) are best done well (by a human) by "feel", and 99% of the feel is filtered out when the mechanical connection is lost. Nobody can threshold brake anymore. Nobody under 40 can drive a car with a manual transmission. That mechanical connection used to be called "driving". What automotive engineering is driving towards can more accurately be called "riding".

I blame the ridiculous and monotonous commutes most people endure on a daily basis in big cities. "Driving" to people sitting in their cars, stop-and-going for 2+ hrs a day is a chore requiring more attention than they'd like to give it, and offering less enjoyment than getting their teeth professionally cleaned. These people would love to be chauffeured, but lack the means to get it done by a human - so the driving pod doing it for them means they get an additional 2+ hrs a day for work or leisure. A self-driving car cannot come soon enough for them.

The cars we love are an antidote to this and are the opposite of a "driving pod". Archaic, dangerous, and decidedly mechanical cars (like a replica) offer something that cannot be purchased for any amount of money out in the general market: a vehicle solely under the control of the operator.

For most of us, "autonomy" or any substantive step along the continuum towards that end is a thing to be avoided and worked around. I don't want a "self-driving car" any more than I want George Clooney to take my wife on vacation because he can do it "better" and insulate me from the experience. Driving is not just getting from point A to point B safely and without any realization of the road one traveled.  Life is in the living of it.

This is my fundamental complaint with the general direction of modern society. It seems as if the large majority of modern humanity would like nothing more than to have a completely safe, fully insulated, boring and coddled existence where they have a long and stress-free life. They avoid restaurants where they might not recognise every item on the menu, and might not like what is offered. They can't go on a vacation unless Yelp or Trip Advisor tells them it's OK. They go to Paris and look for a McDonalds. They seek the safe and familiar and avoid confronting their own limitations, their own weakness, their own mortality. They'd rather let experts make decisions for them and remove any substantive risk involved in actually making them for themselves. These things used to be called "freedom", and used to be a value men and boys fought and died for. This was once a central selling point of an automobile.

We are all living in a time when this idea is mocked and derided as ignorant and uncaring and backward. Decisions are being made for us and "for our own good". It's a tyranny of a totalitarian meritocracy and we are welcoming it. You cannot be trusted to live your own life - the experts know how to do it better, more effectively, safer. The machine knows better than you how to drive your car. You must be saved from yourself, from the risk that you might make a bad decision, a wrong turn. It's Gattica or Minority Report in real-time, and rather than seeing these things as cautionary tales to avoid a dystopian future, we're rushing headlong towards this "inevitable future", this new manifest destiny.

I've got a friend who believes that peak civilization occurred around Y2K. ECUs had made life better - cars had EFI and accurate and mappable spark. They started, responded, idled, and shut off easily and predictably every single time. The electronics were robust, bulletproof, and cheap. High-level functions (shifting, braking, steering, etc.) were left alone. He's probably right.

I live in a world made so much better by electronics. Things that were once a nightmare (things as simple as compressor cycling and fan control) are done so much better with a DDC package assuming control. But even here there are limits - there are a lot of supermarkets (most of them, now) that become a service nightmare because they have too many sensors, too many modules and boards, too many glitches. I can't tell you how much money I've made, driving to a store in the middle of the night to rescan a network or reprogram a parameter in a module. Nothing is broken or worn out, and I don't fix anything - it's just a ghost in the machine. I drive home feeling betrayed by the experts.

I've got all the stuff for a Microsquirt conversion of my Speedster engine. The sensors, the module, everything but the throttle bodies and the harness. I'm hesitating with the installation - not because of the technical challenges (which actually interest me), but because it's a step towards making my car "better" than me by giving functionality to a chip. This is my connection to an analog age, to a time when my car needed my input. I'm not sure I want to filter that.

If this makes me an Amishman or Luddite, I suppose I don't see that as the kind of insult I might have at one time. I guess it just makes me a grumpy old man. What I know is that dealing with the limitations of my car makes it a much, much more desirable thing to me.

Last edited by Stan Galat

I agree with almost everything our sage writer said above.

We all like to improve things from what they were back then. 50s Speedster, you say?

We have more power, better brakes, better tires. Most have added some anti-sway. Some have even(gawd!) changed the swing axle for IRS. How about that rack and pinion steering?

My point is we are all at least a little bit AWAY from the "original" experience.

The real question though: Where is our own personal line drawn? Is it radial tires? Disc brakes? IRS? Crank-fire ignition? 5 speed?

Or is the line EFI? Or the biggest line of all, gateway to all disconnection: drive-by-wire?

@Stan Galat posted:
Nobody can threshold brake anymore. Nobody under 40 can drive a car with a manual transmission.

As I note some hyperbole and generalizations in your writing, I’m sure you did not mean this in a literal sense. However, I just want to add that myself (31) and my wife (30) have been capable of threshold braking and driving a manual transmission since we were old enough to drive. We are definitely the exception, not the rule. You definitely make some good points, Stan! 😊

I'll start with this: My 30 year old daughter can heel and toe, drives a stick daily (taught her hubby) and is pissed that the new FourRunner she wants can't be had in a stick. I love that kid!

Anyway, I think of a simple fuel injection and a carb in similar terms.  The carb has an assortment of analog memory devices (jets and venturies and floats) that remember to let in a certain amount of air or fuel for a given amount of vacuum downstream and at different air speeds.  I tell it what to remember by selecting those analog components.  If I make a mistake I need to tell it to remember something different by replacing, adjusting or cleaning the analog memory piece.  If I don't select well I have a nightmare (garbage in, garbage out).

A simple FI moves that memory function to a digital storage device (a chip) and it will remember what to do at a given vacuum and engine speed, air temp, etc. just like a carb remembers, however, I tell it through a laptop. (In this simple system the "high level" control of the throttle is still in your foot's hands...sorry, couldn't resist).  If I don't select well I have a nightmare (garbage in, garbage out).

Both systems can fail for similar reasons. A dirty jet or injector, clogged fuel filter, bad sensor or vacuum leak, so on and so forth. Maintenance is maintenance and tuning is tuning, it's just that the FI requires a little less of the maintenance and allows a little more fine tuning.  It can also remember more in order to deal better with varying conditions like altitude and temperature, etc.

That's where my line is, a simple Fi system is better for me. A full major manufacturer system doesn't require me to figure anything out and they do concentrate on drivability when programing the ECU, but they don't define drivability the way I define drivability. They slow throttle reaction because you couldn't have possibly meant that request (it'll spin the tires!) or because it's bad for emissions. For 99.9% of what is done with cars by 99.9% of the public that's a really good thing because it can remember what it's been told faster than the average bear can remember what he's been taught.  For someone trying to snap off a crisp heel and toe under trail braking so they can manage the weight shift to help rotate the car...well it can get in they way, especially if it's also tied into the brakes and differential. Porsche and Ferrari and others have shown that you can tell the ECU to remember how to be helpful in those situations, but Subaru and Volkswagen, etc. don't really care about that 99% of the time.  They're concerned with passing government regulations and keeping us in our lane when we're behaving incompetently behind the wheel.  Judging by what I see around town, that describes most driving.

Part of the joy of our chosen hobby is that we can decide where we each want to draw the line.  "You do you," as so many here have said.   It is the way.

Last edited by JMM (Michael)
@DannyP posted:

We all like to improve things from what they were back then. 50s Speedster, you say?

Or is the line EFI? Or the biggest line of all, gateway to all disconnection: drive-by-wire?

I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but I'm loving my EFI setup. Easy starts, no stumble and spot on fueling. Mostly I love not worrying about dirty or stopped up carb parts, I just drive.

No drive by wire for me. My analog parts work just fine for that!

Thought of the day .... ever notice that  our worldly friend Stan often posts  during working hours, I wonder who gets these thoughts and proses added to their invoice?    I know on Friday's the old VW shop in NJ the shop would sponsor lunch for all well actually it went down like this:  The next customer's large R/O that was written actually sponsored lunch on that particular day.

My kids are all under 40, and they can all drive a manual transmission as well.

My girls as well, I threatened them the they would take the driver's test in the old VW 5 speed but in the end, they got to use the drivers' ed car. They would have been fine though.  

Great way to prevent 'friends' from ever asking to drive/borrow the car!

Come to think of it I'm not sure I really know anybody who can't drive a stick.  Even some of my friends with teenage or college age kids have made sure they have the skill.  Heck, some of them have even bought their kids track time with an instructor.

You clearly run with a different crowd than I do, Lane. My primary supply house went without a delivery driver for almost a year because they couldn't find anybody who could drive their stake-bed delivery truck (equipped with a stick).

According to one survey, 18% of US drivers (of all ages) can drive a car with a manual transmission. KBB says that number is closer to 66%, but only 13% of new car models even offer a manual transmission - and of that number, the take rate for manuals is vanishingly small.

OTOH, no new car can be sold in the USA without ABS and traction control. Very nearly every new car comes with an electric steering rack.

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

Last edited by Stan Galat

I have an Outfront EJ25 in my VMC Spyder.  JDM engine.  I got a new shorblock for 2 reasons.  Engine number is on shortblock.  I did not want a Japanese ID number on my shortblock since it is checked by DMV in some states.  The other reason is to guarantee your cylinders are true so you don't get engine blow by.  The cylinders need to be carefully inspected and the heads need to be rebuilt but a new shortblock is the key to engine longevity.  My engine was built with high performance heads with performance in mind and has a "claimed" 230hp.  It flies to 7000 rpms in any gear with a flick of the throttle.  I have a Stinger ECU.  I would say with the Stinger you need to let the engine warm up a while before you drive or it will stall.  But after its warm it's bullit proof reliable.  In my Spyder I went with Outfront because I wanted more than 175hp.  I had the stock EJ25 in 2003 with the stock ECU in the first suby Spyder ever built by VMC.  In no way did that car come close to matching the performance of my current Spyder.  I wanted a stupid fast Spyder and that's what I got.  So if your car needs to be stupid scary fast the stock EJ25 with the stock ECU will not be enough.

That said I have ordered a Beck 356 to be built in a few years by Carey and I will run the stock EJ25 with the stock ECU.  This car will have AC, heat, stereo etc.  I want the dependability of the stock ECU. 

@550 Phil posted:

I wanted a stupid fast Spyder and that's what I got.  So if your car needs to be stupid scary fast the stock EJ25 with the stock ECU will not be enough.

@550 Phil Carey will build my 550 next year or so. My current Alfa Romeo 4C does 0-60 in 4.1 sec., and I want the 550 to better that. The 4C is 237hp pushing 2400lbs, so the 550 should do better if the tires can hold on. BUT, I hear you, and I want mine to be scary fast too. So, what should I be thinking about changing? Is it a different EJ25 from what Carey would normally use, or just some different parts there? Or different ECU? All of these? What would you recommend?

@DannyP posted:

I agree with almost everything our sage writer said above.

We all like to improve things from what they were back then. 50s Speedster, you say?

We have more power, better brakes, better tires. Most have added some anti-sway. Some have even(gawd!) changed the swing axle for IRS. How about that rack and pinion steering?

My point is we are all at least a little bit AWAY from the "original" experience.

The real question though: Where is our own personal line drawn? Is it radial tires? Disc brakes? IRS? Crank-fire ignition? 5 speed?

Or is the line EFI? Or the biggest line of all, gateway to all disconnection: drive-by-wire?

Glad you asked, D! I gave it a lot of thought in my Spyder, which is one reason it has "only" 30 percent more torque than an original. Every gear in my car gets you to about the same speed at redline as the same gear did in an original 550—40ish in first, 60+ in 2nd, 104 or so in 3rd and about 140 in top. But in my car they all come a little quicker—about 6 seconds to 60mph instead of 7 seconds.

And of course my engine's redline is 6000 instead of 7500 as in the 4-cam motor. So not quite like the original experience. But pretty close, I'll bet.

What else? Improvements! Dual circuit master cylinder plumbed to 4-wheel ("barbell") disc brakes. Radial tires with a summer compound—and they're quite a bit wider than the original 16s were (albeit much narrower than what most guys run).

These are just about the bare minimum things you have to alter from OE if you plan to drive these cars on public roads.

Is a crankfire ignition a bridge too far? Given what Rainer Cooney's doing with his replicas, I doubt it. EFI seems to be pretty agreeable to you and some others. I know I wouldn't hate it!

Drive-by-wire though...for me it would depend on the feel. If it felt the same as a throttle linkage (original Spyders had a rod linkage to the accelerator, didn't they?) I'd say go for it. The Morse cable is already "incorrect."

@Foleydb posted:

@550 Phil Carey will build my 550 next year or so. My current Alfa Romeo 4C does 0-60 in 4.1 sec., and I want the 550 to better that. The 4C is 237hp pushing 2400lbs, so the 550 should do better if the tires can hold on. BUT, I hear you, and I want mine to be scary fast too. So, what should I be thinking about changing? Is it a different EJ25 from what Carey would normally use, or just some different parts there? Or different ECU? All of these? What would you recommend?

Sorry it took so long to reply. Out front EJ25 basically has better heads and different ECU. This will provide higher compression which will allow you to take advantage of premium fuel.  I doubt a stock EJ25 would benefit from premium fuel.  I apologize to Carey if I’m incorrect but Carey rebuilds the heads but I’m not sure if he adds any performance modifications. I think the engine is stock and obviously he uses the stock ECU. That Suby engine with a restrictive exhaust system and a cat got 165hp. With the less restrictive exhaust the Beck Spyder is likely about 175hp. Even if Carey builds the heads, without a different ECU you won’t get much more than 175hp. I’m sure the car is very fast with 175hp. Stupid fast?  I don’t know. I know mine is pushing at least 200hp and sings to 7000 rpms. My cars in Charlottesville Va if you want a ride.
Carey has his recipe for success and it works very well. I think he leans toward dependability. I’m leaning that way with my 356 type D build and Carey will put a stock EJ25 in that car.

Phil, don't you have different cam(s) in there too?

And you're right, the Suby even at it's 10.3:1(I think) compression ratio runs great on 87 octane. If the CR is raised then premium is necessary. I think compression is 11.5:1 using the SOHC head gasket. The DOHC gasket is thicker which gives the 10.3:1 ratio.

With 11.5:1 on 93 octane with 2.5 liters of free-breathing massaged heads? Sounds like 200hp to me!

EDIT: I believe the numbers I quoted were hot-rodded numbers from the NASIOC website. I think the stock EJ25 is somewhere from 9.7:1 to 10:1.

Last edited by DannyP
@DannyP posted:

Phil, don't you have different cam(s) in there too?

And you're right, the Suby even at it's 10.3:1(I think) compression ratio runs great on 87 octane. If the CR is raised then premium is necessary. I think compression is 11.5:1 using the SOHC head gasket. The DOHC gasket is thicker which gives the 10.3:1 ratio.

With 11.5:1 on 93 octane with 2.5 liters of free-breathing massaged heads? Sounds like 200hp to me!

EDIT: I believe the numbers I quoted were hot-rodded numbers from the NASIOC website. I think the stock EJ25 is somewhere from 9.7:1 to 10:1.

Agreed.

I'm pretty sure that even with free-breathing heads, an N/A DOHC flat 4 can can't make 200 hp without bigger cam(s), and I'd almost bet that with those cam longer duration (longer overlap) cams and water cooling, 11.5:1 or even 12:1 would be entirely safe and possible. The Subaru bottom end fixes all the Type 1 weak spots and will very easily spin up to 7000 RPM without a lot of drama.

It's hard to see how an engine with more displacement, better cooling, and 4-valve heads wouldn't make at least as much power as a "200 hp" Type 1.

Last edited by Stan Galat

With a different cam and valves and a stinger type ECU, you can get 200hp but not much more.  My builder was adamant that even with all the mods  it still stays around that area.  I was going to have Lachute Performance build one for me but you get to a point of diminishing return as a Turbo is just so much more cost effective to get a 400hp engine if you like the turbo switch.

They also suggested we take a H6 subie and drop it in as the H6-3.0 is 58 lbs more and the 3.6 is 20 lbs more and oodles of torque if you want a solid 250hp with 250ft//lbs with no tune and good stability.

If superchargers come along any more it would be able to use a NA engine and get more than 200hp but then you might need forged pistons etc.  It is still cheaper to do a turbo.

I also enjoy NA better and honestly, if I want to launch myself my GTI is plenty fast with DSG but it is just not the visceral feel of the IM.

I never tried or was in Marty's car but I drove a 180hp turbo Audi in an IM and it was not my favourite as the trottle was more like a switch and you kind of just hung on for dear life when it took off on you.  It reminded me of driving a Kawasaki 1100 and from a standstill I had to hang on for dear life to hold onto the handle bars.  

I passed on a real nice VW bug convert 1959 with a 2110cc bags etc, because I just could not take care of another car. but if Rich Drewek @Rich Drewek sells his Ghia and the border is open I might consider it.

@Stan Galat @IaM-Ray @DannyP @Lane Anderson and all the rest of the boys discussing this subject.....i am sold on the SUBARU engine by OUTFRONT.....7K miles thus far and turnkey!....mine is the single overhead cam 180hp so i'm told....people ask if it is turbocharged...i just smile and say....no need!....it has torque for days....goes around corners in 3rd gear....and just have to press down the skinny pedal and it delivers all i need.....at 4K RPM in 3rd gear the car just comes alive and will scoot out and around what ever needs to be passed on the 2 way roads.....so far ,like i said  turnkey...bulletproof & zero tinkering...what's not to like?

@msjulie  You know I reread this post and it just dawned on me that you ordered a car from Vintage, and an engine from Outback, now called Outfront, so congrats.  

A Stock Subie with minimum mods will be a pleasant car to drive, enjoy the build process.  

One precaution, check the oil often as these engines can sometimes use a bit of oil and even subaru new cars have that warning.  Just don't get caught with the low oil.

Ray is correct. My wife's 2006 Impreza with over 200k on the clock gets checked every other time she drives it. I'd do the same with a new one until it breaks in and proves that oil doesn't isn't getting used.

On another note, after a half-day drive there, two days on the track(beating the snot out of it) and another half-day drive home, the Cayman used 4 ounces of oil. It has 107k on it. I'm pretty happy with that.

@DannyP posted:

Ray is correct. My wife's 2006 Impreza with over 200k on the clock gets checked every other time she drives it. I'd do the same with a new one until it breaks in and proves that oil doesn't isn't getting used.

On another note, after a half-day drive there, two days on the track(beating the snot out of it) and another half-day drive home, the Cayman used 4 ounces of oil. It has 107k on it. I'm pretty happy with that.

I nearly found out the hard way. On my maiden voyage, I just happened to check the oil at a second gaz stop and found my oil down a 1/2 quart, I say quart because I was down in Oregon here we say 1/2 a liter.    

Even modern cars can and do use oil after a big trip but since no one ever checks their oil no one knows.

A friend of ours has a Subaru Outback with the flat 6-cylinder engine.  It has always burned about a quart of oil every 400 or so miles (about a tank of gas) no matter how you drive it.  It was that way when new and has never varied from that rate, which our friend says that Subaru says is "within the normal range".  She's lived with and gotten used to it, just adding a quart or so every fill-up.  She now has well over 100K on it and says it's the best car she's ever had so I guess the oil consumption is just a minor inconvenience for her.

@barncobob posted:

my 17 P doesnt have a dipstick...u have to scroll thru numerous pages of tech questions,oil has to be certain temp,,etc. etc. etc. royal PITA

In 07 it was simpler, no dipstick then either. But when you turn the key to ON, it measures the oil level in a few seconds. If you've run the engine, it can take up to ten minutes(it shows a countdown on the screen).

A friend of ours has a Subaru Outback with the flat 6-cylinder engine.  It has always burned about a quart of oil every 400 or so miles (about a tank of gas) no matter how you drive it.  It was that way when new and has never varied from that rate, which our friend says that Subaru says is "within the normal range".  She's lived with and gotten used to it, just adding a quart or so every fill-up.  She now has well over 100K on it and says it's the best car she's ever had so I guess the oil consumption is just a minor inconvenience for her.

That sounds like Ron Mullis' car. The brand new factory short block has been that way from day one. I wonder if the ring gaps are aligned on those cars with that particular problem?

Last edited by DannyP
@IaM-Ray posted:

There is one thing that is constant with Subaru, you could get an oil user or not, if you do get one, and your within the Subie guidelines then all you can do is keep monitoring it and adding it and even with that it is still a reliable engine.

That’s weird. Seems like it would wreak havoc on emissions, and spark plugs.

I change my Spyder oil twice a year. It uses about 100cc in between but, judging by my garage floor, that’s mostly leaks.

None of my “regular” cars use any between changes at all, including my 2002 ML with 230,000 miles on it.

Last edited by dlearl476

Yes of course I don’t have stock cams. To make higher compression is all In the head work. But that also requires a different ECU setup to make the head work ..,work. My Spyder is one of the fastest cars I’ve ever owned with the exception of a 210hp caterham super seven. Again I think that Carey’s 175 hp setup will be a great performance car. But stupid is as stupid does. If you want stupid fast the sky is the limit. I’m getting older. My stupid days may be in the rear view.

@550 Phil posted:

I’m getting older. My stupid days may be in the rear view.

Boy, I hope not. Stupid-fast is just enough. Your current car is stupid-fast. You sold a perfectly good Intermeccanica because it wasn't stupid-fast.

We all dress it up and try to act in a manner befitting our age, but it's really just a veneer of civility overlaying some serious juvenile delinquency lurking underneath.

Not every car has to be fast. But the car you need to be fast better (in matter of fact) actually be fast.

Get the stock EJ25 with the stock ECU for the "D", but don't ever sell the Spyder.

Regarding checking oil - the majority of cars owned by the immediate family are VW products of the turbo charged flavor and VW/Audi will tell you a quart every 1-3k miles is normal so there's that habit builder.

Speaking with John at Outfront, he says his new engines should have a specific break-in period; oil change at 50 miles, then again a 2 and 3k (if I recall correctly) and only after that time can you use synthetic in the car.  I asked about break-in oil and I may have heard him say it's in there for first 50 to get proper ring seating.

Would be curious if others have performed similar process with their new subie speedsters/spyders and how your oil consumption is/has been.

The waiting is indeed the worst part!

@Foleydb posted:

I am definitely leaning toward more power in the new 550 build. When the time comes I will discuss the options with Carey and we will see where this ends up. It will be a year at least, but I will let you all know where we come out.

Make sure it stops and handles as good as it goes stupid fast. More than 200hp in any Spyder is a fool's errand.

I choose my speedy moments a lot wiser now, but the itch is still stronger than ever. Track time REALLY helps scratch that itch, in a safe environment. Having my wife in the passenger seat helps choose those moments too...

We've had really good luck with OEM short-blocks since the time of Joe and Ron's motors.  Not sure if Subaru figured something out they were doing wrong or what the story is.  They don't tell you much...  Thats not to say none consume oil, as that seems to be "hit or miss" but even the ones that do consume seem to be at a MUCH slower rate.

As for performance, and as several stated above, my target is reliability and usability first.  It is much less common for us to do a built motor and alternate engine management, but we do on occasion.  One major thing to keep in mind is that Subaru provides us/you with a 2 year warranty on your engine in stock form.  Any alterations voids that warranty.  I have not idea what type of warranty Outfront provides, if any, but that is just one consideration...

@msjulie posted:....

The waiting is indeed the worst part!

Oh, don't let it kill you baby, don't let it get to you
To make me want to live like I want to live now, yeah, yeah, yeah, ...
The waiting is the hardest part
Every day you see one more card
You take it on faith, you take it to the heart
The waiting is the hardest part

-Tom & his band  1981

61SCc6kZv8L._SL1200_

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 61SCc6kZv8L._SL1200_
Last edited by americanworkmule

I was looking at a BAT auction, then I thought I wonder how much power it makes?

1982 Porsche 911SC Targa is powered by a 3.0-liter flat-six paired with a five-speed manual transaxle, (180hp)
 
2dr Coupe 6-cyl. 2993cc/172hp Bosch K-Jetronic FI
All in all they weigh 2315 lbs and have 180hp, sounds a lot like a Speedster with a subie 165-180 hp range or 180-200hp with a bit of work NAspirated, add a 5 speed and your back in 1982

Attachments

Images (1)
  • mceclip0

at 4K RPM in 3rd gear ....the SUBARU exhaust note isn't half bad...but i concur, apples & oranges when talking about that flat 6 noise....in 1976, left burbank in my  18 yr old spoiled rich  brat friends 1976 911S at 3pm and were in the lodge in mammoth at 1/4 till 8pm having a beer....i was like a dog with it's head out the window the whole time....that sound never gets old

Back in the 80s, my friend Walter let me borrow his 1972 911T with MFI. For a week.

I was hopelessly hooked. That car was telegraphic, even with some worn out parts. After one day I never wanted to bring it back.

Later, he slowly rebuilt every part of that car, this time with a 5 speed instead of the stock 4 and a 911s 2.4 motor that he built. I lowered it, aligned and corner-balanced it. Best handling car I've ever driven, with 195/65R15s all around.

@jncspyder posted:

at 4K RPM in 3rd gear ....the SUBARU exhaust note isn't half bad...but i concur, apples & oranges when talking about that flat 6 noise....in 1976, left burbank in my  18 yr old spoiled rich  brat friends 1976 911S at 3pm and were in the lodge in mammoth at 1/4 till 8pm having a beer....i was like a dog with it's head out the window the whole time....that sound never gets old

Actually, with unequal headers the sound is very nice IMO, but as @DannyP just mentioned the early 70's to early 80's IMO is the sweet spot and maybe it is because of the more visceral and mechanical functionality of these cars compared to the newer series which are so different.   They are closer to the 356's in driving experience.

Post Content
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×
×