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@DannyP posted:

Ed, you get me wrong methinks. I have no problem with car shows, cars and coffee, rat rods, weird stuff, or especially doing something COMPLETELY different.

My problem is putting some part(s) on your car to specifically get a "wow factor" reaction, rather than the utility of said part(s). That is done by only one type of person: an attention whore. Don't be that guy.

I think we can all agree that Ed would never be that.  Or a poseur...

Old Ed's too goldarned genuwine. 

There is a formula for success in the flat-4 world, a "recipe" (if you will) for a happy, cool-running engine with enough performance to be interesting, but something that will not break or leave you calling AAA every time you get an hour from home. Sane and safe people (I'm looking at you @Sacto Mitch) just stick to the script and motor along their way.

But being different is one of the big reasons I bought a clown car instead of a Corvette (well... that, and I like sleeping in the same bed as my wife).

Let's be honest here - getting reliable/usable power from a Type 1 is not cheap or easy. If any of us always followed Danny's "form over function" argument, then we'd all be rolling Mustangs or Camaros. 911s and Caymans would be out because they are an order of magnitude more expensive to reliably build to modern power levels. Speedsters and Spyders would definitely be out, no matter what's behind the seats.

Everybody thinks that getting away from the Type 1 means that they're going to get Honda-like reliability and LS-like power. I've got news for the "never touch it again" Subi guys - I've driven behind a couple of EJ25 cars and they can burn a fair amount of oil. They're not going to make more than 150 hp without getting into exactly the same kinds of trade-offs we make as a matter of course in the ACVW world.

We're all into this hobby, often with blinders to the outside world - so here's some news for the deluded:

If you really want fast/cheap/reliable (with by far the greatest bang for the buck) you'll always land on a domestic V8. Always. It's far easier and way, way less expensive to get a Mustang to handle well than to get a 911 to the kind of power a Coyote V8 makes in stock trim. A C8 Corvette is the miracle of modern mass-production - stupidly capable, ridiculously fast, roomy and comfortable. Sane/rational people buy them.

... and that's all cool, but it's just not me. I want to take the hard road. I've always loved the Factory-5 tagline, "built, not bought". No sane builder is going to put a boosted air-cooled engine in a fiberglass death-trap, unless he's uninterested in making money.

It is therefore the duty of the owner/operators of these contraptions to color outside the lines. I like going fast, and I like driving long distances. But I also like stuff I think is cool, even if the utility of it is dubious. I'm still enthralled with the twin-plug thing, and if my heads were not being held hostage in Denmark, I'd probably be merrily collecting parts for Erector-Set 2.0.

A blower would not tick any "functionality" box. But if it could be made to work, it'd definitely be cool. It'd never make enough power for me, never be reliable enough to cross time-zones in, so I'm not the guy

... but I'm hoping someone is.

Last edited by Stan Galat

There is a guy from Connecticut that shows up at local C&C's near me from time to time in his 62 (I think) VW Beetle sedan.  Beautiful car, black, lowered, roof rack, nice Ox blood interior, all the goodies.  He showed up at one show with a "Swamp Cooler" attached to the passenger door/window.  You know it's him when he arrives because it also has a Judson Supercharger which you can hear whining from roughly 50 yards away.  Makes it a real head turner (Hey!  What the hell is THAT?)

I've seen him at a few different shows near here, and I suspect he'll be at the "Volks Fair 22 in NH this coming weekend, but I've never asked him about performance, reliability OR longevity.  To me it's just a really cool car with an interesting gizmo on the engine that disappears under the hood and that the guy found and got to work, probably more as a curiosity than anything else and, OBTW - it gives a small performance boost, too.   It definitely has the "wow factor" just from the cleanliness of the installation and the quality of his work - It's all polished or black and it works.

The same goes for a couple of the local Hot Rod guys.  One of them has built Rods easily of Rod Emory quality and thoughtfulness - the kind of car that makes you say "wow, look at that" several times as you circle it, maybe on more than one lap, too, because it's just that cool to look at with all of its' thoughtful treats to the eye.  Treats that are functional, but done in a very classy way.

Form and function has it's place and, if it's done in a classy way, so does "Wow".

I think I found another car from a past "Volks Fair" that illustrates what @DannyP was mentioning - Doing things just for the "WOW" factor.

This is a 1972 VW underneath and I couldn't help but wonder, "Why?"

DSC02803

I guess that somebody needs a VW/Camaro, right?  And the thing is, this guy put a TON of work into it and a lot of really good craftsmanship.  It's almost as cool as that shortened VW Bus right behind it.  The bus probably has to be careful launching out of stoplights.

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@DannyP posted:

Ed, you get me wrong methinks. I have no problem with car shows, cars and coffee, rat rods, weird stuff, or especially doing something COMPLETELY different.

My problem is putting some part(s) on your car to specifically get a "wow factor" reaction, rather than the utility of said part(s). That is done by only one type of person: an attention whore. Don't be that guy.

Oh, heaven forfend! I would never—nor, I'm sure, would any of us other Volkswagen Beetle owners.

@imperial posted:

Where is this Aircooled “recipe” ?

Lets say something in the 100hp range if you set 60 hp for a stock 1600cc dual port motor ,  

Thanks

Known formulas for Type 1 street success include

1915 CC engine, balanced, full-flowed with dual Kads and Engle W110 cam: 90-110 hp

2110 CB Performance "Builders Choice" or turnkey kit: balanced internals, full-flow oiling, Panchitos, dual Weber 44s, etc.: 150 hp

2332 with Kads as built by Vintage with about 150 hp.

Last edited by edsnova

The recipe, as I see it:

2110, full-flowed with a remote filter and cooler, good heads (Panchitos, Timms Stage 1, et al), Engle 120-like cam, good connecting rods, 1.25 rockers, fully balanced, 1-1/2 or 1-5/8 sidewinder header. 40 or 44 IDFs, depending on heads and exhaust.

Stock geared transaxle with a 3.44 R/P, replace fourth with a .93.

Roll that dude anywhere you like, with reliable 130-150 hp (depending on the carbs and heads).

@IaM-Ray posted:

Does Pat Downs do the oil galley full flow mod?  Or CB?

If you're referring to what's commonly called the Hoover mods- extending the horizontal galley in the right side of the case to the rear cam bearing and drilling through the bearing saddle to connect with it, opening the center cam bearing passage way for more flow, connecting the lifter oil grooves so the lifter bores don't wear as quickly (important with some of the more aggressive cam profiles), oil flows to the heads 100% of the time and associated rocker modifications for more lubrication and cooler spring temperatures, probably not.  Most engine builders will tell you they are not needed, cost too much to do and their engines have acceptable lives without the extra work, and you could argue that they are mostly right.  What they don't tell you (or maybe even understand themselves) is that with more oil flooding the rocker box area of the heads (the end result of all that work) you get more equal AND LOWER head temps (less guide and seat wear so longer intervals between valve jobs and less danger of seat movement/dropping), valve springs will last longer (especially important when the engine revs higher than stock), the right side rocker won't show signs of inadequate lubrication (common even in stock engines with high mileage- telling a smart man that the stock oil system is barely adequate as is) and THE ENGINE ITSELF WILL LIVE LONGER!

I'm of the opinion that these mods, along with going to the trouble of making sure there is enough airflow into AND THROUGH (to remove radiated heat that will otherwise be re-ingested into the cooling and intake systems and shorten engine life) are essential to allow your high dollar, higher hp aircooled engine to live as long as possible.  When you've got anywhere from 2500 to almost $5,000 invested in just parts (and the hours it takes to build it yourself) or upwards of 10,000- $12,000 (or more) into a turnkey 2.2- 2.3 liter (or bigger) engine, another 300- $400 in machining doesn't sound like that big a deal for the benefits received.

If you mean drilling/tapping the case for a full flow filter- yeah, they do that.

And @Stan Galat- I agree- either combo would make a great supercharged engine!

Last edited by ALB

As @ALB said, Hoover mods are the icing on the cake. If you plan on rebuilding your engine frequently and it's not for use in an airplane, you can skip them without worry.

Hoover built engines for aircraft and did a lot of tear downs to develop his methods. If you're doing your own work, it's not too hard to do the extra steps to ensure that you get oil flow to the places that commonly get starved.

I did them because my engine building goals included keeping my car for a long time and not having to redo the engine frequently even if I regularly pushed over 6000 rpm. It just seemed like common sense.

That said, thousands of less stressed air-cooled VW engines do just fine without them. Engine builders don't hear folks clamoring for them, so why add cost to an already expensive item.

Yeah, Ray, to me it seems a no-brainer as well, but the engine will run without it and it's a cost thing- most engine builders (I think) feel the pressure to keeps costs down enough that adding that little bit more to the price would result in lost work, so you can't really blame them.  A few years ago a member here (Paul?- from AZ) had his long block built by Competition Engineering.  When, at my suggestion he asked them about it was told they'd been building engines for 30? years, never done the mods and their engines lived acceptably long lives without it.  Otoh, anyone who has gone to the trouble to do ALL the mods will attest to their benefits- one road racer (on the Samba), after seeing the benefits on the track, does the mods to all the engines he builds now.  And yet, so many builders aren't even so much as willing to entertain the idea- so much for old dogs learning new tricks...

The 1 thing that makes people nervous- extending the horizontal oil galley does come close to a depression on the outside of the case, and people have broken through there, so I do understand why they're hesitant to attempt it.  A friend and I drilled a junk case he had as an experiment, and when drilling through to see how much material there was didn't have to go far- only 1/32 or 1/16".  What I've suggested on several occasions on the Samba- sand the bottom of the depression with 80 or 100 grit sandpaper (you need to give the area 'tooth' to be sure the epoxy will adhere properly) and fill the bottom 1/4- 1/2" with epoxy before drilling and you won't have to worry about breaking through.  You could even fix a case by putting the drill bit back in with a little tape on it before the epoxy goes in.  Pull the bit out afterward, and if any tape got left in simply run the drill back through.

Bob Hoover mod gone wrong 2

This pic is from the Samba- that is easily fixable!

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Last edited by ALB

I’ll play devils advocate on the Hoover mods.  If the oil galley connection is so beneficial, why didn’t VW do it.  It certainly wasn’t cost, as the cost would have been zero, as they were drilling there already and would just have to drill deeper.  Todd Francis, the guy that makes the TF-1 engine case, isn’t sold on the mod either.  For him, it’s also not a cost issue, as he drills all the way through the horizontal galley and leaves it up to each buyer whether they want to drill the cam bore to connect them. Other builders feel that pushing more oil up to the head also takes oil away from the rod bearings.  As they say, pick your poison.  For the record, I’m leaning towards  drilling the cam bore when my TF-1 case arrives.

@IaM-Ray posted:

I thought most racers increased the oil pump capacity and dry dumped their engine….

I think the days of the big oil pumps is winding down.  25 years ago everyone thought you needed a 30 mm pump on a performance engine.  Now, it appears most are using 26 mm pumps.  
Dry sump gives you better control of your oil, no need for a deep sump, but requires more space.  

@LI-Rick posted:

I’ll play devils advocate on the Hoover mods.  If the oil galley connection is so beneficial, why didn’t VW do it.  It certainly wasn’t cost, as the cost would have been zero, as they were drilling there already and would just have to drill deeper.  Todd Francis, the guy that makes the TF-1 engine case, isn’t sold on the mod either.  For him, it’s also not a cost issue, as he drills all the way through the horizontal galley and leaves it up to each buyer whether they want to drill the cam bore to connect them. Other builders feel that pushing more oil up to the head also takes oil away from the rod bearings.  As they say, pick your poison.  For the record, I’m leaning towards  drilling the cam bore when my TF-1 case arrives.

I have to disagree with you, Rick- when performing a job repeatedly, drilling only 8" instead of 10 will add up.  Remember, the Beetle was concepted and built as an economy car and not drilling that last 2" as well as not drilling the connector from the end bearing saddle was a time and money saver.  VW got acceptable reliability without the extra steps, and since the idea was to produce the car as cheaply as possible they weren't going to just throw them in.  As I said earlier, I've taken apart a number of stock high mileage Type 1 engines over the years (even worked in a friend's shop 1 winter taking apart engines in prep for rebuild) and it was always the same- the left side rockers and shaft looked great, while the right side showed signs of marginal lubrication. And that was in engines that NEVER went any higher than 4500 rpm!  Of course, what works for 4500 rpm doesn't necessarily do it at 5500 and 6,000 rpm, hence people looking at ways to improve things.

As for more oil in the heads taking away from the rod bearings, if the engine never loses pressure then there's more than enough oil to go around and that statement is totally without any sort of data or fact.  When a VW engine's in good working order there's always more than enough pressure and flow to all points.  In the 10 or 12 (or longer) years that I've known about these modifications I have never (and by never I mean 'not once') ever heard of someone complaining about, or even suggesting that the Hoover mods starve the rod bearings- with excess pressure being constantly bled off, the 26mm pump produces enough pressure AND volume to more than cover it. 

@LI-Rick posted:

@ALB, that rod bearing issue I was speaking of came from Ron Fleming,  one of the pioneers in go fast VW’s.  When a guy like that says something, I take it into consideration, and trust that he has seen an actual issue.  

Ron's experience does carry weight- he's been at it as long or longer than pretty well anyone, and when he speaks I listen as well, as I will probably learn something.  THAT said, with so many people having success with the Hoover mods in street engines I can't help but think there's more to the story- could it be a high rpm drag race thing?  Super high (8,000- 9,000+) rpm's do require pretty substantial oil pressure, and maybe they're seeing something at those higher rpm's that our engines, even when capable of 6500- 7,000 rpms, don't experience?

@ALB, I don’t know if he was addressing any one type of motor, street, drag race, off-road.  
I know you participate on the Samba, and there has been quite a few discussions on the Hoover mods, but I’m not sure how many people actually do them.  Maybe there are thousands of motors out there built with the mods, but I would guess not. It seems that a relatively small amount of people have done them.  That is not to say I don’t believe they have merit,  but I haven’t seen any long term showing much improved service life on modded engines either.

Is there a way to add material, by welding, so one could drill a passage to do a full Hoover Mod?

I know some minor welding is doable. My case has a weld where the oil returns to the case from the filter. I'm sure they cracked it when they screwed in a brass 90 degree fitting, that I wish was a 45 or straight.

If I ever had to have my engine split for any reason, I'd like to have it done. More oil is better, right?

.

With all of these informed opinions on Hoover mods, I thought I'd try to bring some balance here with an uninformed opinion.

I have only my own experience with one motor. It is about as middle of the road as 'hi-po' motors get. Two liters and maybe 120 hp (I'm not the type who gets his motor dyno'd). But it's as mild-mannered as Clark Kent. This is a motor that was designed from the ground up to be unexceptional and it has lived up to its promise.

We're nearing 40K miles and, so far, power and oil consumption are as new — neither impressive nor disappointing. No signs of blue smoke on heavy throttle (not that I do that much). The builder said redline is about 6200, but the motor tells me I'd better cut out the funny stuff around 5000, so we have agreed to make that the limit.

I grew up in a time when drivers needed to bond with their motors if the relationship was going to endure. You'd make requests and listen to how the motor responded. They can be quite vocal about things if you listen. Flog them for spite more than they like and they will get even — never right away, but some day when you least suspect it.

You've probably already guessed that my motor has no Hoover mods. There's really nothing to be concluded from that. Like most of the reports above, this is anecdotal evidence, not statistical.

I do note that most of the reports of uneven wear are from motors that were torn down for other reasons. So, not having Hoover mods in a motor seems to have consequences, but probably not catastrophic ones.

If you plan on flogging a motor to death (and some plan that way), then it seems that Hoover mods may forestall that death, if not prevent it. But if you just want to get on down the road like most of us, you probably needn't bother.

I think one good thing about Hoover mods that @Michael Pickett 's experience has taught us is that they will protect you from being attacked by elephants.

Last edited by Sacto Mitch
@Carlos G posted:

Is there a way to add material, by welding, so one could drill a passage to do a full Hoover Mod?



I suppose so, but the hole I needed to drill goes through a small area after the lifter to the next bearing bore, so that would be quite a bit of welding. That small web is what needs the extra material. I've never seen anyone weld magnesium. That would be cool.

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@Carlos G, the problem with welding is two fold.  First, where the breakthrough usually happens is outside the case, in the recess behind the lifter bore.  Can’t really get a tig torch in there. Some have suggesting welding a plate over the recess, but there is the second issue, heat warpage.  This might necessitate a line bore of both the main and cam bearings.  Some have suggested filling the recess with an epoxy before drilling. Here is a picture of the recess.

B54504CA-B691-49BE-B4AD-50EFCDE8597C

The picture Danny posted, the oil galley looks like it was drilled on an angle. Maybe a bad day at the factory!

@ALB, if you ever get a chance, watch the episode of Engine Masters: Pantastic News!. In short, they test an oil pan, to see if a better pan can produce more power, by better controlling the oil.  It did produce more power, but the interesting part of all these dyno pulls was the oil pressure drop off at high rpm.  They wound up adding another quart, and the oil pressure dropped off even earlier.  They then removed the quart, plus an additional 1/2 quart and reran the test. Guess what happened? The oil pressure didn’t drop off. My point being, things aren’t alway as we think they should be.

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Hoover was messing with road race cars.

And I think the case he makes still makes sense, if the application is an endurance racer, sand rail or an often-flogged, high winding street machine.

You're driving a fake Speedster, pulling a hole shot out of a red light once in a blue moon and clocking 2,000 annual miles, or fewer? The Hoover mod is not your priority.

The real kicker though, is this, from the man himself: "But it’s interesting to note that Volkswagen included all of the modifications to the Type IV engine. In fact, you can find them in every modern-day engine. Which is just another of those ‘unimportant’ details."

@edsnova, I know Bob said that, but here is the inside of a Type 4 case. Where is that galley in the cam bore to transfer that oil?

Where are the grooves cut in the lifters?
Where are the swivel foot rocker adjusters?  This should be part of “all” that Bob said were included.  Maybe I’m not seeing something that is there?

Like I said earlier, I think these mods have merit. I will probably do most of them.  



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