Switching from Kadron to Webber?

If he is using single throat Webers, then YES.....    Even twin choke carbs could be done for that amount I think....   Possibly less...

"Is $2k for Webber carbs + a tune as insane as I think it is???"

Absolutely, although $1K to pull the Webers from their boxes, set the float levels, make sure they're ship-shape and installing them is beyond insane....That Ludicrous!  It takes about an hour each to set them up (if you take a coffee break each) and another hour to install both of them so that's 3 hours at $333.33 per hour.  How does THAT sound?  And do the shop mechanics all wear long white lab coats with "Horst" or "Günther" or something similar on them?

There is probably NOTHING wrong with those Kadrons, except that you inadvertently stumbled upon an a$$hole who doesn't like to work on them.  Typically, on here at least, people who run Kadrons get them set up (by a competent person) ONCE and then never touch them again - they're that good (and, BTW, they're probably easier to work on than Webers).

The best thing I can recommend is find a decent Kadron guy from recommendations by people on here and wave that other, so-called "Weber Guy", a hasty farewell.  

Begs the question... Whats he charging you for the original service ?!

How many hours did he quote to install the Webers?

Thirty minutes to pull the Kadrons. Worst case... 2 to prep, install, and tune the webers.

Is this guy a neuro surgical expert who moonlights at the VW shop?

I don't understand this business model here. "These affordable carbs are junk... Upgrade to these wildly expensive more complex units..."

Remind him ro reference the VW pricing sheet, not the Porsche pricing. The P car tax may be at play here.

At $200 above retail for a 40mm Weber carb kit  http://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/6409.htm and another $1,000 to install and tune (at half that I'd raise my eyebrows) I agree with Gordon- it's a little excessive. Unless you really feel the need, stick with the kadrons and find another mechanic. Kadrons, when they're set up right (and not leaking from the throttle shaft bosses) are great carbs. A friend (who's info I trust) says to machine away the divider inside the manifolds (leave an inch at the bottom) so there's a big plenum. This will allow kadrons to idle as smoothly as a set of Webers and not affect power throughout the rest of the rpm range. Al

So, he pulls the Kadrons, installs and sets up the Webers.

Do you get the Kadrons back? What are they worth on the open market, should you decide to sell them to recoup some of the cost?

I was going to pull my Dual Dell 40's, box em', ship em' to a well known place in Colorado. They were going to rebuild them, set them up on their comparable engine to mine, with the approriate jetting, etc., tune them and return them to me for less than $400.00. All I had to do was remount them and, assuming I didn't mess up the linkage when I took them off, hook them up and be done with it.

Is there a similar Kadron focused shop that could do the smar for you somewhere? I gotta believe that the guys in SoCal can set you up with somebody.

$2k just sounds wrong, but I am no expert.

 

Check KaddieShack.

Looks like they can do a complete rebuild at a reasonable price, assuming you need it, but this sounds like  self involved mechanic issue.

I'd consider ALB's, TRP's and Gordon's sage comments on this.

Thanks, guys. Exactly as I suspected. I am looking for a Kadron-friendly shop now.

...And if you decide you want a new set of webers CB is awesone to work with, highly recommended, and cost was a fraction of the quote you received.

Pat helped me with new carbs this past summer.  He suggested the right size and set up, and set them up for me before shipping from CA to WA... all after a short phone conversation on my engine/driving needs.   All I had to do was bolt them on, and do minor adjustments... less an 2hrs of my time and im no expert.

Happy hunting.

 

Panhandle Bob posted:

Check KaddieShack.

Looks like they can do a complete rebuild at a reasonable price, assuming you need it, but this sounds like  self involved mechanic issue.

I'd consider ALB's, TRP's and Gordon's sage comments on this.

I have sent several sets of Kadrons to the Kaddie Shack. The carbs now live with Brian. I liked the work he did. Wished he was more dependable on timing/turn around.

Nothing wrong with those carbs if they are set up properly. Match them with a properly curved vacuume advance distributor and they are very solid. They got a bad rap in the past for a number of reasons. 

All that said, a properly set up pair of Webers that have been matched to your motor (displacement/cam/etc) are no more work than the Kadrons.

Maybe the mechanic is taking into account the time spent looking for brass thigies? Or... He's not really a Weber expert.

@JustinN FWIW, my previous VS had 1835cc with dual single-port Kadrons. Used as a daily driver for 15 years and logged 161,000Km (100,000 miles). Never touched the Kadrons, other than to re-synch on each tune-up (did 4 tune-ups & re-synch over those 15 years).

My current VS is 1915 with dual single-port Kadrons. Again, is my daily driver and have logged 33,000Km (21,000 miles) in 3 years with one tune-up & re-synch.

Your mileage may vary. 

My vote would be to keep as much cash in your pocket for other frivolous activities and keep the Kadrons, with the help of a reputable VW mechanic in your area, other than the mechanic that blatantly tried to up-sell you to something you didn't really need! 

The man speaks the troof....

So, Justin.......  Just where in the "Geriatric Pan-Handle State" do you live?

Someone on here must be reasonably close to you and might recommend another mechanic whom they trust.

You can also Google Volkswagen Air Cooled clubs in Florida and ask other VW folks near you where they would go.   NOT to that expensive place.  

If it makes you feel any better, I have a retired friend (Chuck) who now lives in what's left of Marco Island.  He was once a computer executive and has a 2-year-old Cayman S that he drives a lot but knows nothing about - his friends told him that he should have a Porsche so he bought one.  He takes it in every 6 months for a "tune-up", even though there is pretty much nothing there to actually "tune up".  For the piece of mind his visits bring, he's charged $1,500 per visit, plus parts.  He's also been told that his tires are junk at around 15,000 miles (same shop) so at 14,500 miles he let's them put on a new set.  For $12,000 (I kid you not).  I never had enough "business status" for him to pay any attention to my car knowledge, so he just goes merrily through life getting taken by garage-types because he doesn't have the benefit of a forum and bunch of people like on here.

Good luck as a new owner.  And keep asking questions on here.  Don't be like "Stupid Chuck"!  He has more money than God.  You and I probably don't.

Funny story, Gordon. Even funnier since I too am a former tech exec living in SW Florida (Sarasota, to be exact - about 1 hr from Marco Island). That said, unlike Chuck, I am mechanically inclined and prefer to do my own work...but I come from an EFI era, so carb tuning is my kryptonite at the moment.

I am connecting with another, local guy on this forum who tunes his own Kardon carbs to see if he can help fill my knowledge gap.

A few more guys with Speedsters here in Florida and we might justify a gathering somewhere.......

Those P mechanics, they like to stiff even the little guy with a VW motor.

What's the name of the shop/mechanic so we can warn others to stay away?

I have a bridge for sale in NYC...it goes from Brooklyn to Manhattan and then back to BROOKLYN....I'll sell it to you cheap.

Run and find somebody else...

Justinn, There are a number of aircooled VW shops just north of you in the Tampa area that could assist.   Fisher Buggies and Sundance Bug and buggy. 

Panhandle Bob, Count me in on a FL gathering. We have another new VS owner in Jax that has expressed interest in a gathering as well. 

We need a census of owners in Florida and maybe lower Georgia and South Carolina(?), southern Alabama?  

I’m in Charleston, SC.

There are a L-O-T of Vintage Speedster owners on this  SOC site ---probably more than

all other brands of Speedsters combined.  Almost every VS has one thing in common and that is Kadron carbs.  I must say that in my 12+ years here I don't remember a single complaint against Kadrons except on this thread.  Leads me to feel like they are very reliable and dependable, as trouble free.  I had Kadrons when I had my 1915 Type I engine and never had a single  problem them in 4-5 years.

I have read a LOT of posts complaining about Webers though.

My engine is fortunate to have nice 40 Dells that were blueprinted by the great Art Thaeon. (sp?). Never a hiccup in 30,000 miles.

Just my own experience.

 

The 3 problems (that I know about) with Kadrons (in no particular order)- 

1- The linkage gets sloppy after a while and this makes it harder to set them up properly and keep them in sync. I believe Scat makes a nice replacement linkage.           

2- The throttle shaft bores in the carburetor bodies aren't bushed and after some mileage they wear, allowing unmetered air to enter. Kaddie Shack (and others) can install bushings.                                                                                                                             

3- Engines with even mild cams and kadrons will seem to run rough at idle. The engine is really only running on 2 cylinders (at idle) because of the firing order- both cylinders on 1 side firing (the 2nd not getting any fuel) and then the cycle repeats with the 2 cylinders on the other side.  I have been told (by someone who's information I trust) that if you machine the wall between the 2 ports to within an inch of the head flange so each manifold is one big plenum then the engine will idle as smooth as with Webers or Dellortos, and this will not affect power throughout the rpm range.

On the right engine (2100cc's and smaller with stock valve heads, appropriate cam and exhaust) they will make close to or the same power as with Webers or Dellortos throughout the rpm range (except for maybe the last few hundred rpm to redline), when jetted properly get great mileage, which will improve even more when drilled for vacuum, jetted appropriately (idle jet being a size or 2 smaller) and run with an svda distributor. With a couple different sizes of venturis available they will run equally well on a 1600 as well as something substantially larger.

The 1 big caveat- don't let anyone convince you to spend the money on 44 or 46mm throttle bodies; these carburetors don't run well with this modification and at this point it really is time to go with Webers or Del's (or HPMX's or...). Al

 

I too have Kadrons and am looking to make the switch to Webers.  Earlier in the thread there was a mention of CB Performance.  When I checked with them, their price was quite reasonable (well under $1k) for a 40mm IDF set up.  

Installation, however, does sounds like the bulk of your estimate.

TheMayoMachine posted:

I too have Kadrons and am looking to make the switch to Webers.  Earlier in the thread there was a mention of CB Performance.  When I checked with them, their price was quite reasonable (well under $1k) for a 40mm IDF set up.  

Installation, however, does sounds like the bulk of your estimate.

The installation is easy. The tuning is what requires the right touch. When Anand, Teby, and Pat D surprised me with my Dellortos I helped with the installation and it was pretty straightforward. Pat's masterful hands did the tuning.

OK.

$2000 is bit high, but consider:

It's not just taking off the Kads and bolting on the Webers. The intake manifolds change, which means that the gasket surfaces get cleaned, the manifolds port-matched (I hope), and new gaskets cut. After the intakes are on, then the carbs and a new linkage. Normal shop-rate labor from a guy hoping to make a living wage is going to be $100/hr. There's not 10 hrs in labor, set-up, and tuning, but it's not $200 either.

A decent carb/manifold/linkage set from CB is about $800 (without shipping or tax), so it's not out of line at all for the shop to charge $1000.

I'm always amazed that most guys don't ever question whether or not they are worth what they get paid (if you make $60k/yr, you're making $30/hr before benefits and the attendant cost of business), but seem to think that everybody else ought to work for peanuts.

I completely agree that a good mechanic is well worth the money.  In fact, I have been fortunate to meet a local mechanic who I have been quite happy with so far.

Come to think of it; it cost me several hundred dollars in labor to have several hundred dollars of parts installed recently.  The money I spent was worth the Peace of mind and lack of stress on my end!

talk to the kaddie shack people about a balance tube on your kadrons. bill

 

where in fla are you? ile be in ft.myers  soon. bill

 

@buckwheat - I am in Sarasota, about 90 mins from ft. myers. I was at the Edison-Ford estate this weekend though (in ft. myers) for a car show!

Justinn...In comparison, If you're familiar with EFI....working on those kadrons  will be like tuning a Sears silent flush toilet....Keep the Kadron's......Bruce

dont know about those toilets, but leep the kadrons. bill
 Bill and Jean Demeter

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the Kadrons/K-dogs are not that difficult to tune. they are actually more for giving than the webers,  yet there is a big difference in power with the webers. I won't get between you and your mechanic, but the labor side of could include him pulling the motor to fit the carbs. the tin needs to be clearanced slightly, thats a challenge in the car. we also clearance the manifolds so we can use a socket over the mounting studs. We always rejet the carbs and before we install a set we completely disassemble them and set the float height. if you have a sync link linkage you have a couple hours with setting that up.  there is more but that should be enough to get where I am going.
if your not comfortable with the quote get another one.

@Anthony Have you had much experience with sync-link? They've been on my radar since I first saw them. $$$ is hard to justify though.

Bill Prout posted:

@Anthony Have you had much experience with sync-link? They've been on my radar since I first saw them. $$$ is hard to justify though.

Terry Nuckels raved about it until I bought one. Best money I've spent.

Same. Until you pull your motor.

To pull the motor you have to remove the throttle cable waaaaaaaaaaay up by the accelerator pedal. Not a huge deal but then you have this long snake of a throttle cable to contend with.  It's a minor trade off.

 

Anthony set up my hex-bar when we put in a new motor three years ago. Twenty thousand miles later, synch is still good and the adjustment nuts have never been touched. A few drops of Tri-Flow on the Heim joints twice a year or so seems to have prevented any noticeable wear.

I think the new distributor that cleared up my 'Weber' issues may have also taken the slop out of the hex-bar linkage.

I wonder if this miracle distributor could also fix Kadrons.

 

 

Probably not, but it might give you additional heat AND provide some drying to the air, negating the need for air conditioning there in the overheated yet "Golden State".

Sacto Mitch posted:

 

I wonder if this miracle distributor could also fix Kadrons.

Not likely.