$$$$$$$$$$. THE KEEL HAS BEEN LAID. $$$$$$$$$$$$

 Bruce I don’t know what brakes I would choose but if this were my build AND it were from scratch, nothing with the word EMPI would be on it anywhere. 

Every

Mistake

Passes

Imspection

I would think that single discs with some nice calipers would be more than enough; I hope Danny (and other Spyder owners) will chime in here. I'm guessing you're going 5x205 mm for bolt pattern- stay away from the Empi boat anchors. As well as being very heavy, quality will be hit and miss. I agree with Robert- stay away from Empi as much as you can. Are you going to put the Vintage 190 aluminum wheels on it?

Vintage Spyder is a couple hundred pounds heavier than an original, it still weighs much less than a Beetle.

In period, drums were almost enough. A lot of Spyder replicas were made with front Empi disc/rear drum on the 4x130 pattern. You don't hear too many owners complaining about the stopping power; guys throw them away because they want proper wide fives!

My car came with what I assume are the Empi wide 5 disc brakes. It's unfair to call them "boat anchors" as they much more resemble Olympic style barbells, only heavier. I've not used them yet but I think they'll stop the car fine. Danny will probably chime in with his experience; he's upgraded very ambitiously to Wilwood (I think) and they work great at much less unsprung weight. But he spent some serious dough and, remember, he tracks his car.

To paraphrase the old hot-rodder adage, 'Speed costs money; how fast do you want to stop?'

To paraphrase the old hot-rodder adage, 'Speed costs money; how fast do you want to stop?'

My quote:  "Lot's of go power requires lots of woe power"  ~

Al, right now I'm thinking vintage wheels. Greg says he can get 205s on them and under the wells in the back. I like those vintage wheels and the wide five look but I'm not totally set on keeping with that look. It is, after all, a replica. Therefore I would opt to use something else for wheels if it would get me wider treads on the back end. I think Greg said something about using Porsche  (9-something) 5 lug wheels to get me more rubber on the ground. Right after that he said that he's not sure what will work on this car in the rear because it's going to be IRS and that may change things.

I have been told that the EMPI discs can be drilled in a spiral pattern to help increase heat dissipation . Changing to a harder more aggressive friction pad also improves performance.  What to do, what to do........................Bruce

If it's EMPI, it SKIMPY is one of the shop mottos  LOL.

However, the EMPI discs are one EMPI item that are generally nice.  You do have to know that the caliper with the L cast into it goes on the right and the R caliper goes on the left, and chuck those cheap ass brake pads for something good.  Oh yeah, and find a good fabricator to make a custom set of anti rattle clips, but other than that...

The Ac Industries brakes are nicer, and they are what EMPI copied.  Those 2 seem to be the only game in stock street brakes.  Beyond them you get into Airkewld and CSP...

re: cross drilling, personally I recommend against it strongly.  a) I've seen too many EMPI discs drilled out that started to play "connect the dots".  b) there's no way to get behind the bolt surface to properly chamfer the holes on the face side of the rotor after drilled.

Now that is some really helpful input from a guy who builds these silly things every day!

Thanks Carey!!!!!!!

edsnova posted:

My car came with what I assume are the Empi wide 5 disc brakes. It's unfair to call them "boat anchors" as they much more resemble Olympic style barbells, only heavier.

chines1 posted:

If it's EMPI, it SKIMPY is one of the shop mottos  LOL.

I realize that EMPI brakes are de rigueur on lots of new stuff, but I'm not wild about them. Ed sends it right down the middle when he points out the big issue-- they're stupid-heavy, at the exact place you do not want heavy things.

The problem with all wide 5 discs made with iron hubs is that the hubs weigh a lot more than Aluminum or steel. The rotating (and unsprung) weight of the typical steel wheel/iron brake wide-5 set-up is quite a bit more than a 4 lug or late Porsche-drilled steel wheel and iron brakes, and you are getting bumkis for that weight-- no additional strength, nothing. Adding Aluminum wheels helps a little bit, but the 4 lug steelies and brakes still weigh a significant amount less in total.

I have no idea of it was a one-off or not, but Tom Boney rounded out the splines in his Speedster with a Subaru engine and EMPI wide-5 brakes last fall in the Smokys-- the stub axles looked perfect, but the splines were all sheared off. We were running hard, but you plan to drag-race this car, which subjects the hubs to a LOT of abuse. One point in isolation is only a single point-- but it's worth keeping in mind. I wouldn't want to become the guy who proves the point by converting a single point into a line.

You're building something special here, and going to a lot of expense to do it. Sticking ridiculously heavy hubs and brakes, which may or may not be adequate for the power running through them on an otherwise super high-end build seems like using the wrong parts. 

Danny has AirKewld brakes, and they're a nice bit of kit. They use steel hubs, with AL "hats" bolted to them. These hats are what the wheels bolt into. I've been running CBs wide-5 kit for 15 years, and like the fronts really well (the backs have some issues). Ron Lummis Racing builds a package similar to Danny's, but with the hubs bolted onto the hats from the back, so they can't be seen.

I wouldn't even consider the EMPIs, but that's just me. You may do as you wish.

You'd better wait till you get the suspension in there and then you can see what happens with the clearance.  It gets to be a pain when there is little room for rubber let alone choosing suspension parts to accomodate more width for tires. 

Wheels can be made fatter on the inside if Greg can modify them. 

Has anyone considered using a VW golf brake caliper?

I heartily thank all of you for the sage advice. Didn't even consider chamfers on the holes. Especially on the wide 5 flange side.  Splines and axle shafts have been a consideration already but it will play second to getting the suspension linkage set up. Yup, I would like big splines and shafts etc.  

Still, I would like to know how or where to find out how brake sizes are determined.

Carey....I feel awed and overwhelmed that you would take time out to offer some comments and advice to me.............Bruce

I agree with you that Carey is a gem to contribute to this list...

Bruce you could look at a 911 from the 1989 era and see what they use.   Then, you can see the sq inches of pad and the number of pistons used. 

This would be my suggestion.  That is what I did for the back of my car.

Now's the time to add jacking points

Ray Costa from over on Spyderclub? Cheers! You're right about the jacking points. Rears are easy, fronts more work though.

Okay, brakes. How do you drive Bruce? Do you do autocross? DE on high speed tracks? Just tool around? Drive really HARD on twisty mountain roads? Any brakes can lock the wheels up. But if you really use stock brakes they'll fade.

For me, I need 4 wheel disc and as much brake as is needed. The car weighs 1500 pounds. Lots of people talk about 1200-1300, but they're wrong. The car weighs 1500 with a type1 or maybe 1530 with a type4. Two good-sized adults, add 400 or so.

I found that rear drums(modified with type3 wider shoes) and CSP solid discs with street pads almost killed me.

I have Airkewld brakes all around, single piston w/ebrake rear(same caliper all the kits use) and 4 piston Wilwood calipers in the front with street/track pads. The rotors are solid blanchard iron, drilled and chamfered holes. They just plain work, all the time, every time. Doing 110 mph on the main straight of LRP into turn 1 with zero drama? Suck the speed down to about 60 at the very last marker? Yup. Lap after lap. No fade. No warping.

There were a few fitment issues, but my friend has a machine shop. The front inner seal area was not machined enough for the seal to stay in place. Also the OD of the hub nose was too large as well, had to shave it down so the grease caps would fit easier, and still be removable.

The hubs are aluminum all the way through, no steel. There is zero wear on the rear splines, and I have over 20,000 hard miles on them.  And Bruce, you can change the bolt patterns from wide 5 to 5 x 130 with 5 bolts per wheel. No other changes are needed. They are light.

They aren't cheap or easy but they do work VERY well.

They are stock width in the rear, but about 3/4" wider on each side in the front. Just be aware of this before you have the front suspension finalized. I had Greg put a 2" narrowed beam in the car and it all fits perfectly.

I'd go with Danny P's set up all day if I had the $$$ and/or opportunity to redo my brake set-up. This is one area you do not want to cheap out on IMO.

If you're serious about wanting to stop every time (as Danny says) then it's going to cost- either Airkeweld (as Danny did) or Kevin Zagar's Coolstop brakes with vented rotors. Neither are cheap, but you get what you pay for.

I am looking into Vdub Engineering brackets that go on ball joint spindles, followed by CSP Vented Rotors (5x130) and Wilwood calipers. I believe the Vdub guy is Ian and he is very knowledgeable. For me, the rotors have to be vented, at least up front, and that is where the availability of Wide Five units are just not there. I have seen one assembly offered, but the vendor admittedly called them boat anchors.

Brian

Originally I was going for Vintage wheels but rear tire size is inhibiting. So Ive been looking at 5 lug, 130 or 120 mm. (Porsche/Audi or GM. Even 4 lug 130s (which I had on the Speedster with Empi discs on all four with "sintered iron" pads.) Never had any problems with them and did stand on them a few times but not consistently to see how far I could push them. I do recognize the need to be concerned about having a good braking system but I don't want to over-kill and over-weight either. Additionally, I'm not into looks first and performance second. I'm more into performance, then make it pretty since I'm spending a lot of bucks.  Greg will probably meet with Kevin from Mendeola next week about the front suspension (hopefully) and, hopefully we can come to some decision about tires-wheel-brakes then............Bruce

IaM-Ray posted:

Has anyone considered using a VW golf brake caliper?

 

Rears with the parking brake function? I believe there have been kits in the past that used something similar (iIrc it wasn't a Golf piece specifically but something very similar). I don't know if they're still offered.

The rear calipers I have look EXACTLY like those that came stock on my Corrado(which had Golf running gear) from the 90s. I can't verify part number but they do look the part.

RacerX posted:

I am looking into Vdub Engineering brackets that go on ball joint spindles, followed by CSP Vented Rotors (5x130) and Wilwood calipers. I believe the Vdub guy is Ian and he is very knowledgeable. For me, the rotors have to be vented, at least up front, and that is where the availability of Wide Five units are just not there. I have seen one assembly offered, but the vendor admittedly called them boat anchors.

Brian

Brian, that sounds good for the front. I wish CSP would share their parts info as replacement rotors are a common part(not proprietary). They fit something, I could never figure out what, and I looked. I simply couldn't find them anywhere else, and they're pricey from CSP. FYI, the hubs are different for the solid and vented CSP kits.

What are you doing for the rear? 

I ended up going front/rear from Airkewld due to the system working together and the similar look, since they are exposed. I realize I could cover the fronts with drumskins but the rear has a machined step that precludes a drumskin.

aircooled posted:

Originally I was going for Vintage wheels but rear tire size is inhibiting...

 Greg will probably meet with Kevin from Mendeola next week about the front suspension (hopefully) and, hopefully we can come to some decision about tires-wheel-brakes then............Bruce

What wheel/tire size are you thinking for the back? Have you considered having a pair of Vintage wheels widened? You could turn a pair of 5 1/2" into 6 1/2's or 7's and then the only limitation would be tires... 

Danny touched on something that has always bugged me. I just wanna' know what parts are being used in various brake kits. Every last kit with e-brakes uses the same calipers, but it's a big mystery what they're from.

I've heard, "a car that was only sold in Brazil", which seems bogus (and invented just because they are Varga, a Brazillian company).

Anybody? @chines1?

Well Jetta mkIV rears have been used at the back which I think is what DannyP is taking about for Calipers  and you can use an Empi disk ... you might have to clearance the bracket a bit

ALB posted:

Have you considered having a pair of Vintage wheels widened? You could turn a pair of 5 1/2" into 6 1/2's or 7's and then the only limitation would be tires... 

 ^ If you must have wider wheels, I would do this.

ALB posted:

IaM-Ray posted:

Has anyone considered using a VW golf brake caliper?

 

Rears with the parking brake function? I believe there have been kits in the past that used something similar (iIrc it wasn't a Golf piece specifically but something very similar). I don't know if they're still offered.

Al, Golf or Jetta use the same parts essentially but not the GTI, GLI those might be slightly different.  But they are used by some builders but no retail vendor would disclose the data.  I would find that normal business if they did the research themselves and put a package together and want the sales.  

One of my early cars a 535, 1987 version I was talking to a mechanic about a front end shake and he says well we ordered special suspension bushings and when we looked at them we realized the speed shop simply cut the 735 bushing and made them fit in the 535... hence his last purchase as a mechanic from the speed shop. 

DannyP posted:

RacerX posted:

I am looking into Vdub Engineering brackets that go on ball joint spindles, followed by CSP Vented Rotors (5x130) and Wilwood calipers. I believe the Vdub guy is Ian and he is very knowledgeable. For me, the rotors have to be vented, at least up front, and that is where the availability of Wide Five units are just not there. I have seen one assembly offered, but the vendor admittedly called them boat anchors.

Brian

Brian, that sounds good for the front. I wish CSP would share their parts info as replacement rotors are a common part(not proprietary). They fit something, I could never figure out what, and I looked. I simply couldn't find them anywhere else, and they're pricey from CSP. FYI, the hubs are different for the solid and vented CSP kits.

What are you doing for the rear? 

I ended up going front/rear from Airkewld due to the system working together and the similar look, since they are exposed. I realize I could cover the fronts with drumskins but the rear has a machined step that precludes a drumskin.

Danny,

On the rear, I would have to go with the Coolrydes set up that would facilitate an ebrake. I haven’t talked to VDub engineering about the backs. He also does p-car component swaps. Vented rears with Wilwoods would be the ticket and it appears that’s what Coolrydes’ kits include. After taking another look at their site, I see they do offer wide 5 kits with vented rotors front and back too.

The rear calipers were used by both Ford (US) and GM (Brazil, S. Africa, maybe elsewhere), however the Ford are very slightly different in the castings.  Ford used them on the Taurus and Sable (Mercury) and the pads and rebuild kits from Ford will work, but the caliper as a whole will not. From memory the years were 93-02.  The Brazil GM application was the Brazilian Monza.  At least that is what I was told, and I was also told it was the same as the Opel Asconda (sp?)...

Kevin Zagar from Mendeola Suspensions will meet and confer with Greg Leach this Friday on building in the front suspension system on my Spyder. This should be fun !    I hope I can time it right to be there when this happens so I can take some photo's.

Bruce