Thunder Ranch build thread

Thanks, Gordo.

Yeah I'll have to get up under there again. Dammit. The relays are not in the easiest spot to access (of course).

The harness did not originally include the relay circuits, I think. It's heavy wire from power to switch (the switch has a fuse) and back out to the lights. So I guess when I put it together I failed to appreciate that I'd linked the relays into a circuit with no fuse—or did I? If so, shouldn't be too much trouble to re-do with the fuse and switch on the other side of that equation, or link it to a fuse in the box, which is inches away.

Still shouldn't matter though if there's no short. So first thing'll be to suss out why it shorted. I have a suspect in mind...

On the other hand..."duty cycle?"

I wonder if it's possible I just grabbed the wrong relays, since these were in a box of electrical junk I amassed over the years, and probably from the Merklin Collection. I honestly never heard there were 30-amp relays with different duty cycles.

@DannyP posted:

WOW! That was what, 2006-7 or so Jim??

@DannyP Yup, 2007! Makes me smile EVERYTIME I watch that clip. 

That was when I first met a bunch of my longtime SOC best friends at my first Carlisle event. 

Turns out the relay is good. It was the relay plug that failed. Or, anyway, one spade connection.

Here's the relay as I pulled it out. 40 amps ought to be plenty.

You can see the 30 pin got hot.

I went ahead and popped it apart since I'd never looked inside one before. 

I mean, what's not to like?
I already knew I had the same condition as when I swapped that relay in a couple months ago. No lows, only highs. So, like last time, I switched the low beam relay to the high circuit. This time it worked!

Took a closer look at the plug housing.

Well now. Hmmm.

My best guess for now: when I put the "new" relay in, it pushed the spade on that jumper wire out of the socket. Not all the way, just enough so contact became tenuous. And then it commenced to arcing.

No sound, no smell. Just heat. No problem for a 15 minute test run, at least at first. ...

I pushed the rest of the wires out, then cut the melty one and soldered on a new spade end. 

Tomorrow I'll hook up both relays without the plug casing and test to see if there's any heat still. Then I'll check the connections at the lights themselves, and trace to make sure I did indeed fuse this circuit correctly (which I think probably not, given the situation). If not it shouldn't be impossible to rearrange it so the circuits are properly fused via the panel, and if that's too hard I'll just do inline ones. Maybe I can get fuses built into the new relay plug. 

When I rewired my headlights, I wanted to keep the runs as short as possible, so opted for these relays and sockets with inline fuses.

Two years ago, and no problems.

Two 60-watt headlights are a 10-amp load, so even a 30-amp relay should be fine.

I used a couple of those fused relay sockets.  Mine use an automotive tab-style fuse on one side Of the relay and you can physically clip multiple relays together.   Got em from NAPA back when I installed the external cooler/fan and my O2 sensor, but Amazon has lots of them.

Still, I think you found the problem and have already addressed the solution so I doubt that you’ll need that.   
But’cha nevah know......

Ed, make sure that the little tab sticking out on the fast-on tab is clicking into the connector housing to prevent it from being pushed out by the insertion of the relay.  That ‘s a problem that’s bitten me more than a few times.  Looks like your connector housing is distorted from the heat so the lock-in tab might not be catching.

Great minds, Mitch. I was just looking at these.

All fixed, btw.

And yeah the tab on the spade connector (blue/14 gauge/#30) didn't engage which is why this whole mess happened. I spent like half an hour picking at the spades this time (one was a real bitch) to make sure those tabs were sticking out. Got them all locked in and realized there was no way to bolt the new relays on my nifty little homemade "relay bar" (shown above). The new holders had little nibs but the studs on my holder were too long to use. They would interfere with the relay bodies. 

The relays themselves had slots in back for metal clips (like the one between those two and the seat heater fuses), but I couldn't find my bag-o'-metal-clips-for-relays I bought like a year ago...

Finally found it and—joy!—discovered these newfangled fused relays used some newfangled kind of metal-clips-for-relays, which I did not possess. 

So, rather than just stuffing the mess up under the fender and maybe zip-tying it to a loom cover, and rather than buying yet another bag of metal-clips-for-relays, I drilled holes in two of my existing metal-clips-for-relays and then riveted those to the relay carriers and then affixed the carriers to the "relay bar," neat-like.

Some day this build is gonna end...

Clean job. 👍

Well done, Ed!

Hey, when you get done with all that, I have a home theater system that has this basket of snakes behind it pretending to be an orderly set of cables (my usual OCD'ed-ness was overcome by an acute lack of patience).

Nice guest room down the hall, backyard pool, although my kitchen gizmo tells me it's only 66F in there right now so maybe that's not for you, but Kathy is a fantastic chef, we have plenty of wine and Insta-Cart is a few clicks away....   C'Mon up!   When you're done we can head to the Palmer, MA track and watch my neighbor race his motorcycle.  Sit on the hill with Portuguese wine and cheese, discreetly socially distanced across the ground cover.

Jus' sayin......    

BTW: The "high roller" connector terminals have dual tabs on them to insure that they don't push out the back (along with keeping the tab straight as the connection is made).   I have a very small Xelite screw driver (3/32" wide blade) that just fits in the locking tab release slot.  For the dual tab versions there was a special pickle fork tool to release them.  Those were usually for Mil spec or NASA spec stuff.

Come on now, Gordy, you know @DannyP is the King of All Wiring.

Wiring is a big Bug-a-Boo for a lot of people.  Do you try to make it organized and neat from the start (preferred, but it slows down getting started) or do you try to neaten it up after running leads to things?  (and then find out that your lengths, routing and/or turn radii suck).   And what do you do later on when you inevitably add or change things - Neatly include it in the harness or tie-wrap it alongside, just to "get r dun"?  Besides - Nobody's gonna see it, right?

And then there's that bit about; "Just wire it up.  You don't need a wiring diagram.  You'll remember where everything went." and we all know how THAT goes later on.  And that includes noting the wire color - They offer different colored wires for a reason!   Just ask @Alan Merklin (and others) how much fun it is figuring out wiring that someone else did when they only used red colored wires for the entire car!

In the industry, three people design harnesses: The product designer doesn't give a hoot about wire colors - All he/she cares about is signals, power and grounds from assembly A to B.  He/she will never have to troubleshoot or fix it.  
The manufacturing or field technician is the one who cares about colors because they need to find a fault fast.  They intuitively want to know that grounds are always green (brown if you're German), power is always red (sometimes black, if you're English) and can trace a signal by wire color (usually by different stripes).  The cable/harness designer is caught in the middle and is usually the one who chooses length, gauge, bends, anchor points and wire colors with input from the techs.  While there are industry standards for all this, it seems like every company uses a lot of leeway once you get away from basic power and grounds and as long as they're consistent over time, that's OK.

Sorry - This got a little long.  I used to live this stuff but even that doesn't guarantee that I always do a good job wiring things.  Sometimes OK is good enough.  

@edsnova posted:

Come on now, Gordy, you know @DannyP is the King of All Wiring.

You're making me feel all warm and fuzzy and bashful and embarrassed.......

There was sale somewhere on that red wire used by Shade Tree Sam on two different Speedster projects .. I've seen lamp ( zip) cord, bell wire, Romex, 7 wire trailer cord too. In my rolling tool chest resides a dedicated large pair of scissors for the singular purpose of  eliminating wiring nests, once the deed is done it's easier to start from scratch then to figure out someone's wiring thought process.   For me wiring is the best part of assembling a car. On speedsters I use Greg's Vintage Motorcars harness because I know where every color wire goes by heart.  Going to Tom's Bucannon's  garage early next week to hunt some wiring gremlins he has.  

I always thought you use red wires with red fuses, yellow wires with yellow fuses, blue wires with...

Our Field Techs would often run across these sights at customer "data centers"

THIS is what it's supposed to look like:

Looks like a power pole in India.

@Alan Merklin posted:

In my rolling tool chest resides a dedicated large pair of scissors for the singular purpose of  eliminating wiring nests, once the deed is done it's easier to start from scratch then to figure out someone's wiring thought process. 

I like the way you think, Alan. One of these days when I get a round tuit, I'm going to post a few photos of the MG TD replica project I picked up this summer. The previous two owners stalled on the wiring. I started by testing what worked, but didn't get far before smoke rolled out from under the dash. I cut the whole mess out, then used this street rod harness from Amazon, with modifications for rear engine and Volkswagen-specific items like the location of the brake lamp switches and particulars of the turn signal and hazard lamp circuits, plus grounds for every light and device mounted to fiberglass. 

Eric

My Spyder is a mess. The PO had wired one high beam to the other low beam. Only one of my turn signal tach indicators flashes, they both illuminate when I turn on my lights. I'm probably lucky it hasn't burned to the ground yet. 

I've often thought I should just buy a new harness from Carey, pull it all out and start from scratch. The immensity of the job is the only thing keeping me from doing it. 

I had a clean start since the car had been sitting outside for 14 years. The PO had purchased a new harness from Henry, but being the first VW I had ever touched, there was lots of head scratching. Plus, my need for lots more relays, fuses, AC, ignition switched driving lights, fuel pump safety logic, oil pressure gauge, Speeduino, fuel injection and electronic ignition...

I wish I could say it's squeaky clean, but the best I can say is that it's well documented (I am too aware of my failing memory). Not my favorite part, but it beats fiberglassing by a country mile.

@Michael Pickett posted:

I had a clean start since the car had been sitting outside for 14 years. The PO had purchased a new harness from Henry, but being the first VW I had ever touched, there was lots of head scratching. Plus, my need for lots more relays, fuses, AC, ignition switched driving lights, fuel pump safety logic, oil pressure gauge, Speeduino, fuel injection and electronic ignition...

I wish I could say it's squeaky clean, but the best I can say is that it's well documented (I am too aware of my failing memory). Not my favorite part, but it beats fiberglassing by a country mile.

The best thing that ever happened to me, wiring wise, was having to work on amplifier racks like Gordon's second picture. I talked the company into buying a Brady label maker. At the end of the job, nobody wanted it. So I kept it. 

It makes fantastic labels that you can write stuff like "Headlight Fuse to Ignition switch" make two, (one for each end) and the label has a clear nylon tail that covers the label. 

If I ever do a new harness, it will be labeled to within an inch if it's life. 

When I built Pearl, 25 years ago, I made a "hybrid" harness:  I pulled the entire harness(es) from the '69 VW donor, then pulled it apart and added to it for my needs and then installed it in the speedster.  The thought behind this was that all of the colors in the VW wiring diagram in my Bentley service manual would automatically match and all I had to do was add a few more wires and colors and Voila!  I'm done.

That was the thought process, but it probably doubled or tripled the time needed to get everything done, not to mention that nothing from the VW harness was the right length or ended up precisely in the right place so there was a lot of cutting and fiddling - Everything to the front was made from scratch because I added relays and a fuse box under the hood, not under the dash.  Now I have a gas heater in the nose and the harness for that was from scratch and grafted into the existing harness - a real PITA, but it got done and now I'm about to change a lot of the heater harness for the new fuel control module I'll be installing - The old module was in the nose, while the new module is behind the dash so the old harness is junk.

If I were to re-wire her I would assuredly get a new Speedster harness from whichever builder makes the most sense, lay it out on the floor, add the few things I need not already included, make them slightly long and un-terminated, write down the colors and gauge of everything added and slap that puppy in there and be done with it.  Then I could cut and terminate everything new in place.

IF I were to do it again.  Which, at my age, is unlikely unless a grandson wants to learn how to do that.

Ditto that! As a cheap, "nail straightening Yankee", I foolishly thought I would use the CMC harness. All new, but a complete rats nest and I'm not sure the gauge was right in a most places. I should note that I'm fussy about things like wiring. Neat, shrink wrap, rub protection, etc.

I FINALLY smartened up and called Will at Vintage Speedsters. Cheaper that a few other bids and CAKE to install. I can't tell you what a thrill it was to see the car light up after all this time.

Call Will. You won't be sorry.

I know  Greg's  VSMC harness by heart if you get in a bind , let me know.

This is how we did cabling at Data General Computers in the 1980's.  Once the prototypes were debugged, the cable designer copied the proto harness and drew a harness layout on paper, then all of the terminations and colors were noted along with bend radii and attach points and such.  Then multiple copies were made of the print and laminated for use in the cabling shop.  This could also be easily translated, if necessary (we built cables in Thailand and Manila, for instance).   

My issue with the thermal label makers is that they eventually will fade especially when heat is applied near them and then they turn black and you need to relabel.  Do those brady labels survive that?

As far as labeling, that's one of the things I love about the street rod harness I purchased from Amazon. Every wire is labeled with its purpose every couple of feet. The only downfall is some of the leads come up short when converting from front to rear engine, brake lamp switch up front, etc. I spliced in extensions as necessary and kept a spreadsheet of them so at one point, when I find time, i can build a proper wiring diagram in Visio. 

@IaM-Ray posted:

My issue with the thermal label makers is that they eventually will fade especially when heat is applied near them and then they turn black and you need to relabel.  Do those brady labels survive that?

Brady labels are tough as nails. As far as I know, the print is ink, not thermal. The major telecom company I used to work for standardized on Brady for labeling everything in the central offices, equipment, cabling, and fiber optic jumpers. Brady isn't cheap, but their stuff is good. 

@IaM-Ray posted:

My issue with the thermal label makers is that they eventually will fade especially when heat is applied near them and then they turn black and you need to relabel.  Do those brady labels survive that?

Yeah, Ray. They're not strictly thermal, they have a roll of labels and a roll of carbon paper-like vinyl. I think a laser burn the carbon onto the label. 

I have everything in my engine compartment labeled, including my spark plug wires, and they're as fresh as the day I put them on. 

They aren't so immune to solvents, though. I've tried to label my Wurth Brake-Kleen and Kerosene QuickShots and if anything gets on the lettering, it dissolves it. 

(But the printing on the wire labels is protected. The sprayer labels aren't. I just realized I should cover the labels with some clear packing tape and they'd be indestructible)

Heres a shot that shows my spark plug labels. Took last year during my shroud mods. They were one year old at that point. (They still look the same one year hence). 

@Eric (McGruff) posted:

As far as labeling, that's one of the things I love about the street rod harness I purchased from Amazon. Every wire is labeled with its purpose every couple of feet. The only downfall is some of the leads come up short when converting from front to rear engine, brake lamp switch up front, etc. I spliced in extensions as necessary and kept a spreadsheet of them so at one point, when I find time, i can build a proper wiring diagram in Visio. 

One of the things I love about my Mercedes is that all components have a code, and the wires between components have a color, a stripe, and the component numbers the wires run between are in a trace along the entire length of the wire. 

Here's a page from the WIS software. 

The plug on the transfer case control module is N78. The plug on the low range switch is S97/6. So the wire between the two will be labeled "S97.6-N78/A3" along its entire length. Makes it really easy to, say, make your own trailer light plug from a Crutchfield VW stereo plug because the Mercedes part is NLA. 

Thanks for that I might start looking for one of those Brady Label makers. 

https://www.bradyid.com/label-...l-printer-pid-139535

IT says that they use Thermal is this what you have?

@dlearl476 which model do you have of the labeller?

@IaM-Ray posted:

@dlearl476 which model do you have of the labeller?

Yeah, Ray. I have an IDXpert 2.0. The one on the left with the software/computer interface. I used to have to label 72 Channel mixing consoles, and all their inputs/outputs, so it was easier to do it on a laptop and hit "send" than "typing" it in the little keyboard. 

Of course, I haven't needed that capability since, although I've toyed with writing a program for, say, every wire on my Ducati. But once you get them labeled, you only need 1-2 labels at a time. 

@IaM-Ray posted:

https://www.bradyid.com/label-...l-printer-pid-139535

IT says that they use Thermal is this what you have?

It's true it is thermal transfer, but unlike a printer that prints on thermal paper (that turns black in the sun) it uses a carbon paper-like tape that is heat transferred onto vinyl. 

https://www.slideshare.net/mob...bel-printer-brochure 

Thanks 

I use frosted Scotch Tape and a sharpie.

I feel like a man of the 60's, lost in the new millennium.......    

Real men don't need labels and documentation.

They're the wiring equivalent of reading the instructions. A real car guy can look at any bundle of wires and instinctively know where to start messing. And you don't repair so much as keep adding new stuff until it's all better.

My VS was delivered new to me obviously wired by some true car guys. The telltale hints were everywhere. Like in the engine compartment where a green wire was led to a cleverly hidden spot behind a bunch of other stuff and then butt-spliced to a purple wire. There was no reason to do that other than to throw off wusses who rely on color codes and labels to figure things out.

I'm a car guy. I just knew the purple wire and the green wire were the same one. Developing a feel for this kind of stuff can take a lifetime.

But it's under the dash where the 'car guy' school of wiring reaches high art. A mysterious, thick bundle of wires emerges from under some carpeting and then immediately disappears up and behind a steel crossbeam, where it's tightly zip-tied in place. Most of the wires from the instruments and panel switches are led into the same blind space.

You can play with lights and mirrors as much as you want, while lying upside down on the floor, clutch pedal jabbing you in the ear, but you will never actually see what is connected to what up there. Color codes? Labels? Seriously?

Wiring and wiring repair on my car is done by feel and intuition. If you can't follow a wire through the maze to its source (about half the time), it's best to cut it off and wire in a new connection. The more wires, the more impressive it all looks when you're done taping it back together.

Labels? Nah.

Car guys just remember what everything does.

I once visited a computer Data Center in the US Pentagon.  After they check your references and scan you and probe you and poke you and pluck you and badge you and assign a Marine guard to you, you then have to walk down endless corridors and around a few bends and then take an elevator up or down (I honestly can't remember which, after the turns) and then they re-scan you and re-probe you and re-poke you and re-pluck you before allowing you to enter their sacred data space, all the while followed closely by that Marine Captain just waiting to throw your butt out of there if you mess up.

Once inside the Data Center, which I had to walk up a set of 6 or 7 steps to enter, I was led to our equipment which was a string of disk storage arrays, each the size of a kitchen refrigerator, all in a row in the middle of the room and our field install guys were just finishing up the install.  I looked through a hole in the floor where all of the interconnecting cables are lain and was surprised to see a huge mass of cables less than 12" below the floor - like an impervious carpet of cables, totally covering any trace of the real floor, just lying there and way more than needed just for our equipment.  "Wow", I said to one of the Pentagon IT guys, "Is this an older Data Center?  Is your sub-floor only 18" deep?"   

I was surprised because Data Center sub-floors are, by code, usually 24" - 36+" deep and then a support floor is suspended above that to give you space to run your equipment cables neatly under the floor and/or service them in the future.  

One of my DC field guys heard the question and answered it for Mr. Pentagon: 

"Nope, what y'all are lookin' at is a 8 FOOT sub-floor space, an' that's almost totally filled up with old cables" (as he gives Mr. Pentagon a cold look).  "When they reconfigure any-thang they just cut off the connector ends of the cables, leave 'em lyin' there and drag new cables through on top for the new stuff.  Someday, their Devil's payment's gonna come due and they'll have to pay someone to remove all those cables and some guys're gonna sell all-a them cables for the copper value and they gonna make a killin".

So there it is........   Your Gum-mint, hard at work.

I worked for a major university health system at one point and helped design and install the first internet network there (still remember my arpanet ID). We surveyed a wiring closet used for 3270 terminals and it had a similar appearance to Gordon's data center subfloor. 

I asked how they knew which terminals were attached to which cable and the closet team said it had been that way when they were hired. They said they just started unplugging cables one-by-one and waited to see which nursing unit called the help desk...

Oh, the early days.

@Gordon Nichols posted:

I use frosted Scotch Tape and a sharpie.

I feel like a man of the 60's, lost in the new millennium.......    

 

That won't work for me. At my age, I'm not supposed to mess with anything sharp!

@Gordon Nichols posted:

 

"Nope, what y'all are lookin' at is a 8 FOOT sub-floor space, an' that's almost totally filled up with old cables" (as he gives Mr. Pentagon a cold look).  "When they reconfigure any-thang they just cut off the connector ends of the cables, leave 'em lyin' there and drag new cables through on top for the new stuff.  Someday, their Devil's payment's gonna come due and they'll have to pay someone to remove all those cables and some guys're gonna sell all-a them cables for the copper value and they gonna make a killin".

So there it is........   Your Gum-mint, hard at work.

Similar to an episode early on in my career. I was an installation supervisor at a company that did 90% of its work for the RBOCs (regional Bell operating companies). New Jersey bell hired us to mine out abandoned power cable from overhead cable racks (think cable tray, but everything is laced instead of ty-wrapped) in a block-long multi-story, decades-old central office in Newark. I placed six guys on that job for 9 months on T&E (time & expenses). They mined out I don't recall how many tractor-trailer loads full of scrap insulated stranded copper cable, most of it 750 MCM (about an inch in diameter with the jacket removed) from 80+ years of abandoning old cable in place. In some spots, the abandoned cable was piled over 3' thick.  It's a wonder the 5/8" anchors supporting the threaded rod which the cable racks hung from didn't pull out of the structure.  

You know, IIRC 750 MCM 1" diameter cable weighs about 3/4's pound per foot which, at today's copper scrap pricing (I just looked it up) would be about $2.00 PER FOOT!

A trailer container is 48 feet long so a single length of cable would bring $96 bucks at scrap prices.  Multiply that by 100 cables across the floor for $960 per layer and 100 layers high and the copper scrap price alone, per trailer is around $96,000  

Holy Moly!

Most companies (especially RBOCs) usually depreciate stuff over 12-ish years so they've already written it all off, so they pay a contractor to remove it after 20-30 years and only recently have been getting a cut of the scrap prices - They used to just give it all to the removal contractor.

But enough of how the phone company (and many others) spend the monthly payment you send to them.

Let's get back to Ed's Spyder sorting.

Sorry, Ed!

Thank you, Gordon. 

A few weeks ago when I did the airport photo run my neighbor followed on his bike and told me he thought the car was "crabbing." The front and rear wheels are within about 1/16 inch of the same distance apart (a smidge longer on the driver's side) so it should be pretty straight, I told him. Front track is a little wider than the back, so maybe he was seeing that? 

The car "felt" straight.

Still. I decided to center the car on the lift and run strings to measure off of to re-check toe and camber. My camber measurements were as I'd left them. A little more on the passenger than driver's rear to account for the driver's weight. 

I did find that my track width, as measured from the outsides of the tires, was virtually identical front to back. So my neighbor was right.

Rear toe-in measured 3/8", almost all of it on the driver's side. The rear end of the car was constantly making a wide right turn. 

That meant setting the driver's rear wheel backward a little—with the salutatory effect of centering it better in the wheel well. I set it back around 3/16" and the new measure was 1/8 toe-in with a very slight LEFT turn. As making these adjustments requires loosening the spring plate bolts and then rocking the car/turning the tire until their relative positions diverge—an operation difficult to achieve with micrometer precision—I decided to leave well enough alone.

This also makes the left wheel base of the car about 1/4 inch longer than the right. 

?

Front toe measured zero+, or maybe just 1/16" in. I assume that's because I raised the front a little—toe seems to go out when the wheels go down and in when they go up. So we'll see if this causes any issues at high speeds in crosswinds and adjust later as needed. So far, probably not.

Took it for a 10-mile spin: very nice. The steering wheel is now maybe one spline off center, but the car feels livelier without being squirrely. Tracks and stops true. Spun it up to 5500 in second* to test the valve cover gaskets and such, and checked around the engine for oil leaks when I got home. Looks like no drips above the underpan now. And I have a new sump gasket and hardware to fix the one stud leaking under there.

Hated to do it, but...front license plate bracket.

This attaches via the last two (or probably any two) of the top grille screws to put the plate low and on the left. I drilled for lightness and painted it body color to keep it inconspicuous as possible, though still best to delete it I think.

This car is for sale, if anyone is interested.

--

*A word on the engine: it is loud, but very pleasant to hear. Quite "authentic" right now in its low RPM softness and hesitancy. Even in its present state of tune it feels like it's rarin' to go above 4000, and very eager still at 5500. I feel like once I get a proper spark map dialed in and then tweak the air-fuel ratios it should be even better.

Good luck on the sale, Ed. Whoever gets this car is getting a masterpiece!

It is finished, congrats Ed. Hope the sale comes quickly. 

Yeah, not going to list it until the final tuning is done but open to offers.

Turns out I can't program the Black Box ignition module without a laptop running Windows 7 or previous...so I've got my bro-in-law setting up an old box to send me.

Hope to get that sorted before the weather goes away. And after that it's onto the Webers, which seem to work pretty well after Carey & co. went through them. But the wideband will tell the tale.

I figure it'll be spring before I can list. Not in a big hurry.

Short update: test-drive yesterday including some highway felt very good. No more tire rubbing in the fenders on sharp, fast turns; stable at speed, just a subtle hint of cowl shake at 60 mph. Revved it up to 6k in second gear getting on the beltway and the engine felt and sounded very willing to do more.

On the way home I pulled into the landfill and drove onto the scale, which read 1720 with about 2/3-3/4 of a tank of gas. Weighed myself and my briefcase when I got home: 171.

So, 1549 pounds wet/empty. Seems about right.

Idled down to Mariner Park to try a couple pics, but it was pretty busy down there & a trio of students were trying to rehearse their lines for a Shakespeare play so I didn't stay long.

Checked the engine: no oil drips apparent. Everything in order.

I've met you.  For you and your briefcase to weigh 171, it must be one helluva heavy briefcase!

@edsnova posted:

...a trio of students were trying to rehearse their lines for a Shakespeare play so I didn't stay long...

'Tis the east, and Ed's Spyder is the sun.

@Gordon Nichols posted:

I've met you.  For you and your briefcase to weigh 171, it must be one helluva heavy briefcase!

Uh, yeah Gordon. The briefcase has gained several pounds over the past year or two.

About 19 I would imagine.

So I'm guessing all your extra "doo-dads" added 50-100 car pounds? Not bad considering all the stuff.

Mine weighs about 1500. I think Carey says 1400 plus is normal for Becks.

Seems reasonable, Danny.

@edsnova posted:

Weighed myself and my briefcase when I got home: 171.

I weighed a buck-sixty-five on my wedding day. My good friend bet me a steak dinner there'd be 10 more on my first anniversary.

I bought steak.

I'm still a little salty that he didn't tell me there'd be 10 lbs more EVERY anniversary...

@Stan Galat posted:

I weighed a buck-sixty-five on my wedding day. My good friend bet me a steak dinner there'd be 10 more on my first anniversary.

I bought steak.

I'm still a little salty that he didn't tell me there'd be 10 lbs more EVERY anniversary...

I would have had to buy him 7 steak dinners

@WNGD posted:

I would have had to buy him 7 steak dinners

7?!?

I scoff and your "7". I crossed 255 recently. That's 90lbs of rippling romance more than the boy-groom of Turkey-Town weighed in at 35 years ago.

Drag your knuckles on the ground more. It'll remove your knuckle hairs. That may make you lighter LOL!

Truth be told, I'm a little over my mid-1990s fighting weight as well...

We're into the picture-taking phase of this endeavor.

@Stan Galat posted:

7?!?

I scoff and your "7". I crossed 255 recently. That's 90lbs of rippling romance more than the boy-groom of Turkey-Town weighed in at 35 years ago.

Good Grief, Charley Brown!  If you're tipping the Toledo @ 255, you're lucky that original wager wasn't an Over/Under Bet. If it had been, you'd probably have bought him the whole friggin' cow by now!

Beautiful photos, Ed. It is truly a stunning example. I'm not going to ask you what kind of price you're hoping to get for it, but I would suggest you go for more than $0.25 per hour that you've got in it. This car is the epitome of a work of love and attention to detail. Just wow!

What Michael says.

That is one amazing accomplishment, Ed.

Amazing car, Ed!

As for "...90lbs of rippling romance," that started my day off with a belly laugh.

That's one fine looking Spyder Ed !!!  A real head turner in the Blue too !!

All my best accolades are in order for you, followed by a deep genuflect with hat in hand and a show of leg !!...........Bruce

From one Journalist to another (through me), a genuine "Tip 'O the Hatlo Hat" from Jimmy Hatlo, Illustrator for the Hearst Syndicate newspapers and one who brightened everyone's day for many years, just as you have done with your Blog and posts here.  Now we can all watch Merklin the Magician build his Dune Buggy.....  But it won't be the same.

Well Done, Ed!

Gordon......Jimmy Hatlo !! Holy Crap !! Haven't heard that name for a while ! I absolutely loved his strip called "Hatlo's Inferno" !  It should have been in Mad Magazine as a regular feature as well.  Thanks for the nostalgic trip !.............Bruce

Spherical bearings installed on the throttle linkage.

Lookin’ good, Ed!

Listen up, young ones. Ed's attention to detail is what we mean when we say "Welcome to the madness." Plus, why he can expect to get a premium price on this one.

RS-60 Mark and I should have patented that heim-joint thing back in 2006.

Looks good, Ed.

So all week I've been playing with these carbs. Finally (I think!) got them dialed in today.

To recap: last Saturday a.m. I headed out to maybe show the car at an unofficial gathering nearby. I was a block from home when I aborted the mission: popping, blurby backfires, rough going told me I should once again clean some idle jets.

So I decided to install the Jet Doctors, and did that, and pulled out all the idles and mains and doused them with Gumout and blew a little air through some orifices on the carbs and splashed carb cleaner and/or gasoline on my face, as one does.

Got it back together and went to reset the mixture screws and it wouldn't set.

Noticed just a tiny bit of slop in the hex bar on the driver's side so i figured what-the-hey and cut the mount towers off the air cleaner bases, drilled and tapped and socked in a couple 5/16 heim joints, and epoxied some artfully cut down bolts in the hex bar ends. Crossed that off my punch list and returned to trying to set the carbs right.

Long story even longer: they wouldn't set. Three times I started over, warmed up the car, detached the linkage, set the mixture screws a half turn out from gently seated, set the idle stops a half turn in, checked the pull with the snail and got them even, and then went after the mixture screws for best idle.

Oh, it idled just fine. But underway I'd get those same symptoms, more or less: A bit of a stumble on takeoff. Popping on light acceleration. Popping on decel. Blurgy transition to the mains.

I mean...drivable. Almost not bad. But I know what it's supposed to act like, and this wern't it.

I pulled out the carb cleaner again...

Turns out that left side carb, with the linkage attached, was not quite setting back down on the idle stops. Oh, it got mighty close! So close I didn't see it—three times.

It was less than a paper's width off the stop. I loosened the lock nuts on the down rod and turned the rod about a half turn. Tightened up. Rechecked with the snail. Went around the mixture screws again. Took a ride and finally we're back to normal.

Oh, it still needs attention. Nothing like Danny's yet.

But now we'll be working from a slop-free (slop-proof!) linkage kit as we try to get this beast the best it can be.

EFI in this car would be a stretch on its authenticity, but you can see why I like it. Nice sleuthing, Ed!

A half-turn out? That's not normal for Weber idle mixture volume screws.

Mine are a little over a turn out. Normal is between 1 and 1.5 turns out. More than 1.5 turns out and your idle jets are too small.

Your idle jets are too big if you have lean peak idle speed at 1/2 turn out.

What size are they, Ed?

Good catch, Danny. My error. I actually started with the mixture screws one full turn out, and after adjustment I think they are out something close to 1--1.5 turn all around. Turning them in a quarter turn made it lose rpms, so I turned them out a little....

Half turn in from where they touched was where I put the idle speed screws to start.

The idle jets all say 50, but I don't know if Jake reamed them when he built the engine. From what I read on the innerwebs it seems likely they're a little bigger than 50.

Pump jets say 50. I don't know what the mains say.

The .50(means 50% bypass) pump jets are normal in a VW. You won't have to change them.

A .50 idle jet is probably right for a 1915cc. You'll know for sure once you run the wideband on it.

If I end up visiting your area I can give it a tweak, but have no idea if that will be soon or springtime.

Ed...The only thing I can add to your punch list is this. The two aluminum bars that slide onto the hex bar may have their holes drilled at different lengths. This changes the throttle positions on the carbs in relation to each other all thru their rotation except at idle. The best way to check this is to remove the hex bar and slide the two aluminum bars onto the hex bar, then look to see if the holes on the opposite ends of the aluminum bars are in perfect alignment. (mine were off by 1 mm)   It can get worse. Tighten the aluminum bars onto the hex bar with the set screws and again check for perfect alignment in the opposite holes.  What I found is that the alignment changed every time I moved and reset them.  This is why I went to the  Vintage Speed Throttle linkage and never looked back.  It also looks more "period relative" !...Bruce

Bruce, I'm cornfused:  Are you talking about these arms?

And if so, wouldn't any differences in the angle of the arms in relation to the hex bar be compensated for by the adjustable downlinks?

Danny and I adjust the idle stops with the linkage disconnected at one end, then conect the linkage and adjust the downlinks at 2500 - 3000 rpm to tune them in which makes them even.  

Are you talking about something different?

I've had a pair of arms where the larger hex hole and the small hole for the little linkage heim joint were drilled on different centers between the two pieces. I had to fill the small hole on one arm with JB weld and re-drill it 1/8" closer.

I believe that's what Bruce is talking about.

It is. EVERY length and angle matter. They must be equal left and right at all points in order for the hexbar to work right with the no-slop heim joints.

Ahhh....    OK, that makes sense.  I just couldn't visualize what he wrote.

Now I have one more thing I have to go out and measure.......    

Thanks!

.

Just make sure all of these angles are the same on both sides, and you're good:

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These motors are dead simple.

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The wise men tell us that the key to getting rid of linkage gremlins is to get the down links (the adjustable links that run vertically) dead-on vertical. That eliminates having to guesstimate and make a bunch of angles the same because, well, vertical is vertical, right?

The problem is that that's near impossible, so you make it as close to vertical as you can and then think clean thoughts.

The guy who set mine up is a pro and he pretty much nailed it. After six years, both sides are still about as close to each other as possible. When you hear an engine with both sides in synch, you never forget it. You can tell if a car driving past is in synch or not just from that sound.

For a long time, I thought I had synch or jetting issues or some dirt in the jets between idle and about 2500 rpm.

Miraculously, that all went away when I found a distributor without spark scatter.

Before you get mired in the whole jetting and linkage thing, I'd strongly recommend checking for spark scatter with a timing light by slowly working your way up the rev range from idle. It's easier and much less painful than what lies in wait for you down that other rabbit hole.

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Alas, he has a Black Box and a locked out distributor. Down the rabbit hole he goes....

Ed ....Yes, those are the arms I was talking about. Centerline to centerline should be equal. If they are not, then the pull radius will be different from side to side.  It might be easier to visualize if one side was an inch shorter than the other side. Obviously they would start out from the same position at idle but as the throttle is opened, one side will reach WOT first. (Wide Open Throttle) The carbs would never be in sync all thru the process except at idle. The little pull rods will not compensate for the difference in pull radius.  I hope this helps.

Maybe to prove it to yourself, try setting the throttle, at say, 1500 rpm and get an airflow measurement with your "snail".  At that point adjust the carb linkage so that the snail reads equally on both sides. Then reset the throttle to 2200 rpm and take another snail reading. if everything is perfect, the snail should read higher but equal on both carbs. If not, it's a good guess where the problem is.  Just like Stan says, then it's JB weld and re-drill time to make the centers the same

The same for the lock/set screw that holds those arms to the hex bar. Each time you loosen one and retighten it, you will get a different snail reading.

After screwing around a lot and making some modifications, I was never happy with that linkage system so over the wall it went into my secret parts disposal system.

As I said, I used the Vintage Speed linkage without serious problems plus there is the advantage of being able to simply disconnect the linkage (magnetically) without having to readjust it all again. For perfection the "wheel/cable" system is even better.

Dual carbs are a PIA but when adjusted perfectly, it is a sweet sound to hear !

My guess is that the manufacturing tolerances are not up to par on the hex bar system for starters..............Bruce

The synch thing only really matters up to about 50% throttle. After that the throttle plate is open wide enough that you won't feel it, and the motor probably won't either.

What I did: I put a set screw on both sides of each arm, and the center pull also. I used red loctite. The threads on CB linkage are 1/4-20 'Murican threads. Then I never touched them again. Every hardware store should have Allen set-screws.

If you're lucky enough to have a Spyder, it's easy to see all the angles, you can step back and look at it, especially if the rear clamshell is off.

You Speedster guys can either use an angle gauge(I have a 12" digital readout level that was inexpensive and can be calibrated for whatever is "level" for you. Or, you can set them up while on the engine stand before installation.

.

@DannyP posted:

...The synch thing only really matters up to about 50% throttle....

Danny, you monster.

Under 50% throttle is where MOST of us do about 95% of our driving.

.

Correct, Mitch, I was implying to worry about just off idle more than WOT.

.

@Stan Galat posted:

Alas, he has a Black Box and a locked out distributor. Down the rabbit hole he goes....

OK, so there aren't any springs or weights or pivoting bits to set the advance, but the spark still gets made by the same genuine made-in-China electronic gizmo, no?

I think I'd still want to check for spark scatter just to rule that out before descending into the darkness.

.

@Sacto Mitch posted:

.I think I'd still want to check for spark scatter just to rule that out before descending into the darkness.

The horror of Chinese distributors. The horror...

It was 40 degrees F when I got up this morning so of course I ran the car 25 miles out to Hunt Valley's unofficial, semi-social-distanced Cars & Coffee to test the seat heaters (which worked niiice) and

DEBUT THE CAR IN PUBLIC

The result was pretty much as expected.

I got basically swarmed as soon as I pulled in, so I backed into a slot near some VWs, as is right and proper.

First guy who said anything pronounced it the "coolest car here." The second guy declared there was "no plastic whatsoever" on the vehicle. And I did correct him.

I was happy to see @East Coast Bruce there (pictured below with a friend of his whose name slipped my mind). Bruce was kind enough to stand quietly, nodding for like five minutes while I droned on insufferably about all the crap I did to the car.

One guy did express tentative interest in purchasing a 550 Spyder replica so we exchanged numbers.

Plan to show it in Annapolis tomorrow and I think after that we'll put some Stabil in the tank and top it off and call it a season.

@Sacto Mitch posted:

.

OK, so there aren't any springs or weights or pivoting bits to set the advance, but the spark still gets made by the same genuine made-in-China electronic gizmo, no?

I think I'd still want to check for spark scatter just to rule that out before descending into the darkness.

.

Mitch I think you're right and I will do it but here's the thing:

Currently the 009 (copy?) with Pertronix is my spark system. It is not yet "locked out" and it works like they work. I know damn well I have spark scatter in the mid throttle, mid rpm range. That is the nature of this beast.

The engine runs very nicely right now. I have not taken apart the hexbar to check the downrod hole centerline but I did check the angles on the outriggers and they are the same side to side. Remember, Raby built the engine and Cary Hines set it up so it lacks some of the amateurish oversights some engines like this come with. It's good.

But not perfect.

So I have two main tasks left to accomplish. I am not sure in what order but I think this is it.

1. Receive from my bro-in-law a WinTel laptop running a newly installed version of Windows 7; load my "Black Box" installation/tuning program onto that, and then pull and lock-out the disty and wire up the Black Box. The system comes with a standard spark map and @DannyP has shared his car's map with me so I think I have two reasonably good places to range between as I dial in an advance curve that's right for this engine. I'm running less cam and lower static compression so I expect we'll run more spark advance throughout than Danny does with his hi-po 2165. I also have the parts I need to add a vacuum advance to the system so the light load timing can go way above the SOC standard 30 degrees @3000 I am running now.

2. Screw in an O2 sensor and take wideband air/fuel readings while underway under a variety of conditions, from just off idle and no load to WOT up hill, and as needed adjust the carb's jetting and various screws and geegaws so that it reads around 14 to 1 at idle, about 13 to 1 at WOT and about 14.5 at flat highway cruise.

There is a small but not insignificant chance I might do the latter adjustments on a chassis dynomometer, depending on availability.

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Jeesh, Ed, paragraphs 1. and 2. above sound like the clinical definition of a rabbit hole and I have no doubt that you will enjoy every minute of exploring the innermost recesses thereof.

And you will almost certainly emerge, a few weeks from now, with a much better running engine.

I'm only suggesting you look for spark scatter and maybe note how much there is (and where on the curve) before you venture below. Could help establish a baseline before you start messing around with all that other stuff.

My own 009 clone said 'Pertronix' on the side, but I think Pertronix make only the spark module, and that the whole mechanical body comes out of the same Chinese factory that they all do.

Whenever I would set the advance, I'd see the timing mark at idle and from about 2500 rpm on up, but in between, it would literally disappear - no timing mark at all.

Thing is, even so, the engine never really ran poorly. It was pretty smooth, didn't pop or cough, and transitioned pretty well. But if I tried to hold a steady engine speed at, say, 2000 rpm, there was a little, nagging miss that wouldn't go away. I also found I could set the mixture/volume screws until it just purred, but the next time out I'd have to set them again to get the same degree of smoove.

I swapped in the basic CB Magnaspark II, and the timing mark suddenly appeared across the whole rev range, and the nagging miss was gone, too.

Don't want to belabor the point, but if you're getting serious about getting dialed in, here's another data point that might help - and it's pretty easy to check.

.

Eddie (@edsnova),

FWIW, The Black Box software will run on later versions of Windows. I had it loaded on Windows 10 before my computer was stolen in Avignon, France last fall.

It was a Macbook Air, and I was running it in Bootcamp. I connected through a serial port adapter I bought on Amazon. No issues.

What you seem to be saying, @Sacto Mitch, is that if there is spark scatter from the 009 now, there will still be spark scatter after I put the Black Box on top of it.

And this would seem to be both an obvious thing and something I had not heretofore considered as a possibility...

@Stan Galat PM sent.

@edsnova posted:

What you seem to be saying, @Sacto Mitch, is that if there is spark scatter from the 009 now, there will still be spark scatter after I put the Black Box on top of it.

And this would seem to be both an obvious thing and something I had not heretofore considered as a possibility...

I would bet you a malted beverage that this is not going to be the case. Once the Black Box is active, the distributor will only serve two functions:

1. The ignition pickup
2. Actually distributing spark (which doesn't need to be very accurate to be accurate)

100% of the advance curve is in the box.

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Ed, I honestly don't know.

But if you're having problems with spark later on, it might help to know what the dizzy is doing all by itself before you add the box.

And it's just a matter of hooking up a timing light and watching the timing mark as you slowly run up the revs.

I DO think that most of the problems with the ersatz 009's are in the advance mechanism, but it's hard to know for sure.

.

I have zero experience with CB's Black Box. I have experience with a large POS 009 with +/- 5 degrees at 3000 rpm.

I hope that Stan is correct, but if the spark trigger is in the POS 009, the scatter may remain. If the trigger is elsewhere(and I hope it is, and it's on the crank) then it will certainly NOT scatter.

Well. We shall see.

For reasons I am in no way clear about after enjoying two fairly potent malt beverages in quick succession, zee ShwartzBox is now up and running on my work laptop, under Windows 10.