Skip to main content

Thanks, Gordo.

Yeah I'll have to get up under there again. Dammit. The relays are not in the easiest spot to access (of course).

The harness did not originally include the relay circuits, I think. It's heavy wire from power to switch (the switch has a fuse) and back out to the lights. So I guess when I put it together I failed to appreciate that I'd linked the relays into a circuit with no fuse—or did I? If so, shouldn't be too much trouble to re-do with the fuse and switch on the other side of that equation, or link it to a fuse in the box, which is inches away.

Still shouldn't matter though if there's no short. So first thing'll be to suss out why it shorted. I have a suspect in mind...

On the other hand..."duty cycle?"

I wonder if it's possible I just grabbed the wrong relays, since these were in a box of electrical junk I amassed over the years, and probably from the Merklin Collection. I honestly never heard there were 30-amp relays with different duty cycles.

Last edited by edsnova

Turns out the relay is good. It was the relay plug that failed. Or, anyway, one spade connection.

Here's the relay as I pulled it out. 40 amps ought to be plenty.

IMG_6404

You can see the 30 pin got hot.IMG_6408

I went ahead and popped it apart since I'd never looked inside one before. IMG_6411

I mean, what's not to like?
I already knew I had the same condition as when I swapped that relay in a couple months ago. No lows, only highs. So, like last time, I switched the low beam relay to the high circuit. This time it worked!

Took a closer look at the plug housing.IMG_6417

Well now. Hmmm.

My best guess for now: when I put the "new" relay in, it pushed the spade on that jumper wire out of the socket. Not all the way, just enough so contact became tenuous. And then it commenced to arcing.

No sound, no smell. Just heat. No problem for a 15 minute test run, at least at first. ...

I pushed the rest of the wires out, then cut the melty one and soldered on a new spade end. IMG_6421

Tomorrow I'll hook up both relays without the plug casing and test to see if there's any heat still. Then I'll check the connections at the lights themselves, and trace to make sure I did indeed fuse this circuit correctly (which I think probably not, given the situation). If not it shouldn't be impossible to rearrange it so the circuits are properly fused via the panel, and if that's too hard I'll just do inline ones. Maybe I can get fuses built into the new relay plug. 

Attachments

Images (5)
  • IMG_6408
  • IMG_6404
  • IMG_6411
  • IMG_6417
  • IMG_6421

I used a couple of those fused relay sockets.  Mine use an automotive tab-style fuse on one side Of the relay and you can physically clip multiple relays together.   Got em from NAPA back when I installed the external cooler/fan and my O2 sensor, but Amazon has lots of them.

Still, I think you found the problem and have already addressed the solution so I doubt that you’ll need that.   
But’cha nevah know......

Ed, make sure that the little tab sticking out on the fast-on tab is clicking into the connector housing to prevent it from being pushed out by the insertion of the relay.  That ‘s a problem that’s bitten me more than a few times.  Looks like your connector housing is distorted from the heat so the lock-in tab might not be catching.

Last edited by Gordon Nichols

All fixed, btw.

IMG_6443

And yeah the tab on the spade connector (blue/14 gauge/#30) didn't engage which is why this whole mess happened. I spent like half an hour picking at the spades this time (one was a real bitch) to make sure those tabs were sticking out. Got them all locked in and realized there was no way to bolt the new relays on my nifty little homemade "relay bar" (shown above). The new holders had little nibs but the studs on my holder were too long to use. They would interfere with the relay bodies. 

The relays themselves had slots in back for metal clips (like the one between those two and the seat heater fuses), but I couldn't find my bag-o'-metal-clips-for-relays I bought like a year ago...

Finally found it and—joy!—discovered these newfangled fused relays used some newfangled kind of metal-clips-for-relays, which I did not possess. 

So, rather than just stuffing the mess up under the fender and maybe zip-tying it to a loom cover, and rather than buying yet another bag of metal-clips-for-relays, I drilled holes in two of my existing metal-clips-for-relays and then riveted those to the relay carriers and then affixed the carriers to the "relay bar," neat-like.

Some day this build is gonna end...

Attachments

Images (1)
  • IMG_6443
Last edited by edsnova

Well done, Ed!

Hey, when you get done with all that, I have a home theater system that has this basket of snakes behind it pretending to be an orderly set of cables (my usual OCD'ed-ness was overcome by an acute lack of patience).

Nice guest room down the hall, backyard pool, although my kitchen gizmo tells me it's only 66F in there right now so maybe that's not for you, but Kathy is a fantastic chef, we have plenty of wine and Insta-Cart is a few clicks away....   C'Mon up!   When you're done we can head to the Palmer, MA track and watch my neighbor race his motorcycle.  Sit on the hill with Portuguese wine and cheese, discreetly socially distanced across the ground cover.

Jus' sayin......    

BTW: The "high roller" connector terminals have dual tabs on them to insure that they don't push out the back (along with keeping the tab straight as the connection is made).   I have a very small Xelite screw driver (3/32" wide blade) that just fits in the locking tab release slot.  For the dual tab versions there was a special pickle fork tool to release them.  Those were usually for Mil spec or NASA spec stuff.

Last edited by Gordon Nichols

Wiring is a big Bug-a-Boo for a lot of people.  Do you try to make it organized and neat from the start (preferred, but it slows down getting started) or do you try to neaten it up after running leads to things?  (and then find out that your lengths, routing and/or turn radii suck).   And what do you do later on when you inevitably add or change things - Neatly include it in the harness or tie-wrap it alongside, just to "get r dun"?  Besides - Nobody's gonna see it, right?

And then there's that bit about; "Just wire it up.  You don't need a wiring diagram.  You'll remember where everything went." and we all know how THAT goes later on.  And that includes noting the wire color - They offer different colored wires for a reason!   Just ask @Alan Merklin (and others) how much fun it is figuring out wiring that someone else did when they only used red colored wires for the entire car!

In the industry, three people design harnesses: The product designer doesn't give a hoot about wire colors - All he/she cares about is signals, power and grounds from assembly A to B.  He/she will never have to troubleshoot or fix it.  
The manufacturing or field technician is the one who cares about colors because they need to find a fault fast.  They intuitively want to know that grounds are always green (brown if you're German), power is always red (sometimes black, if you're English) and can trace a signal by wire color (usually by different stripes).  The cable/harness designer is caught in the middle and is usually the one who chooses length, gauge, bends, anchor points and wire colors with input from the techs.  While there are industry standards for all this, it seems like every company uses a lot of leeway once you get away from basic power and grounds and as long as they're consistent over time, that's OK.

Sorry - This got a little long.  I used to live this stuff but even that doesn't guarantee that I always do a good job wiring things.  Sometimes OK is good enough.  

Last edited by Gordon Nichols

There was sale somewhere on that red wire used by Shade Tree Sam on two different Speedster projects .. I've seen lamp ( zip) cord, bell wire, Romex, 7 wire trailer cord too. In my rolling tool chest resides a dedicated large pair of scissors for the singular purpose of  eliminating wiring nests, once the deed is done it's easier to start from scratch then to figure out someone's wiring thought process.   For me wiring is the best part of assembling a car. On speedsters I use Greg's Vintage Motorcars harness because I know where every color wire goes by heart.  Going to Tom's Bucannon's  garage early next week to hunt some wiring gremlins he has.  

In my rolling tool chest resides a dedicated large pair of scissors for the singular purpose of  eliminating wiring nests, once the deed is done it's easier to start from scratch then to figure out someone's wiring thought process. 

I like the way you think, Alan. One of these days when I get a round tuit, I'm going to post a few photos of the MG TD replica project I picked up this summer. The previous two owners stalled on the wiring. I started by testing what worked, but didn't get far before smoke rolled out from under the dash. I cut the whole mess out, then used this street rod harness from Amazon, with modifications for rear engine and Volkswagen-specific items like the location of the brake lamp switches and particulars of the turn signal and hazard lamp circuits, plus grounds for every light and device mounted to fiberglass. 

Eric

My Spyder is a mess. The PO had wired one high beam to the other low beam. Only one of my turn signal tach indicators flashes, they both illuminate when I turn on my lights. I'm probably lucky it hasn't burned to the ground yet. 

I've often thought I should just buy a new harness from Carey, pull it all out and start from scratch. The immensity of the job is the only thing keeping me from doing it. 

I had a clean start since the car had been sitting outside for 14 years. The PO had purchased a new harness from Henry, but being the first VW I had ever touched, there was lots of head scratching. Plus, my need for lots more relays, fuses, AC, ignition switched driving lights, fuel pump safety logic, oil pressure gauge, Speeduino, fuel injection and electronic ignition...

I wish I could say it's squeaky clean, but the best I can say is that it's well documented (I am too aware of my failing memory). Not my favorite part, but it beats fiberglassing by a country mile.

I had a clean start since the car had been sitting outside for 14 years. The PO had purchased a new harness from Henry, but being the first VW I had ever touched, there was lots of head scratching. Plus, my need for lots more relays, fuses, AC, ignition switched driving lights, fuel pump safety logic, oil pressure gauge, Speeduino, fuel injection and electronic ignition...

I wish I could say it's squeaky clean, but the best I can say is that it's well documented (I am too aware of my failing memory). Not my favorite part, but it beats fiberglassing by a country mile.

The best thing that ever happened to me, wiring wise, was having to work on amplifier racks like Gordon's second picture. I talked the company into buying a Brady label maker. At the end of the job, nobody wanted it. So I kept it. 

It makes fantastic labels that you can write stuff like "Headlight Fuse to Ignition switch" make two, (one for each end) and the label has a clear nylon tail that covers the label. 

If I ever do a new harness, it will be labeled to within an inch if it's life. 

 

Attachments

Images (1)
  • image

When I built Pearl, 25 years ago, I made a "hybrid" harness:  I pulled the entire harness(es) from the '69 VW donor, then pulled it apart and added to it for my needs and then installed it in the speedster.  The thought behind this was that all of the colors in the VW wiring diagram in my Bentley service manual would automatically match and all I had to do was add a few more wires and colors and Voila!  I'm done.

That was the thought process, but it probably doubled or tripled the time needed to get everything done, not to mention that nothing from the VW harness was the right length or ended up precisely in the right place so there was a lot of cutting and fiddling - Everything to the front was made from scratch because I added relays and a fuse box under the hood, not under the dash.  Now I have a gas heater in the nose and the harness for that was from scratch and grafted into the existing harness - a real PITA, but it got done and now I'm about to change a lot of the heater harness for the new fuel control module I'll be installing - The old module was in the nose, while the new module is behind the dash so the old harness is junk.

If I were to re-wire her I would assuredly get a new Speedster harness from whichever builder makes the most sense, lay it out on the floor, add the few things I need not already included, make them slightly long and un-terminated, write down the colors and gauge of everything added and slap that puppy in there and be done with it.  Then I could cut and terminate everything new in place.

IF I were to do it again.  Which, at my age, is unlikely unless a grandson wants to learn how to do that.

Last edited by Gordon Nichols

Ditto that! As a cheap, "nail straightening Yankee", I foolishly thought I would use the CMC harness. All new, but a complete rats nest and I'm not sure the gauge was right in a most places. I should note that I'm fussy about things like wiring. Neat, shrink wrap, rub protection, etc.

I FINALLY smartened up and called Will at Vintage Speedsters. Cheaper that a few other bids and CAKE to install. I can't tell you what a thrill it was to see the car light up after all this time.

Call Will. You won't be sorry.

This is how we did cabling at Data General Computers in the 1980's.  Once the prototypes were debugged, the cable designer copied the proto harness and drew a harness layout on paper, then all of the terminations and colors were noted along with bend radii and attach points and such.  Then multiple copies were made of the print and laminated for use in the cabling shop.  This could also be easily translated, if necessary (we built cables in Thailand and Manila, for instance).   

Cabling Board

Attachments

Images (1)
  • Cabling Board

As far as labeling, that's one of the things I love about the street rod harness I purchased from Amazon. Every wire is labeled with its purpose every couple of feet. The only downfall is some of the leads come up short when converting from front to rear engine, brake lamp switch up front, etc. I spliced in extensions as necessary and kept a spreadsheet of them so at one point, when I find time, i can build a proper wiring diagram in Visio. 

@IaM-Ray posted:

My issue with the thermal label makers is that they eventually will fade especially when heat is applied near them and then they turn black and you need to relabel.  Do those brady labels survive that?

Brady labels are tough as nails. As far as I know, the print is ink, not thermal. The major telecom company I used to work for standardized on Brady for labeling everything in the central offices, equipment, cabling, and fiber optic jumpers. Brady isn't cheap, but their stuff is good. 

@IaM-Ray posted:

My issue with the thermal label makers is that they eventually will fade especially when heat is applied near them and then they turn black and you need to relabel.  Do those brady labels survive that?

Yeah, Ray. They're not strictly thermal, they have a roll of labels and a roll of carbon paper-like vinyl. I think a laser burn the carbon onto the label. 

I have everything in my engine compartment labeled, including my spark plug wires, and they're as fresh as the day I put them on. 

They aren't so immune to solvents, though. I've tried to label my Wurth Brake-Kleen and Kerosene QuickShots and if anything gets on the lettering, it dissolves it. 

(But the printing on the wire labels is protected. The sprayer labels aren't. I just realized I should cover the labels with some clear packing tape and they'd be indestructible)

 

Heres a shot that shows my spark plug labels. Took last year during my shroud mods. They were one year old at that point. (They still look the same one year hence). 

image

Attachments

Images (1)
  • image
Last edited by dlearl476

As far as labeling, that's one of the things I love about the street rod harness I purchased from Amazon. Every wire is labeled with its purpose every couple of feet. The only downfall is some of the leads come up short when converting from front to rear engine, brake lamp switch up front, etc. I spliced in extensions as necessary and kept a spreadsheet of them so at one point, when I find time, i can build a proper wiring diagram in Visio. 

One of the things I love about my Mercedes is that all components have a code, and the wires between components have a color, a stripe, and the component numbers the wires run between are in a trace along the entire length of the wire. 

 

Here's a page from the WIS software. 

image

The plug on the transfer case control module is N78. The plug on the low range switch is S97/6. So the wire between the two will be labeled "S97.6-N78/A3" along its entire length. Makes it really easy to, say, make your own trailer light plug from a Crutchfield VW stereo plug because the Mercedes part is NLA. 

Attachments

Images (1)
  • image
Last edited by dlearl476
@IaM-Ray posted:

@dlearl476 which model do you have of the labeller?

Yeah, Ray. I have an IDXpert 2.0. The one on the left with the software/computer interface. I used to have to label 72 Channel mixing consoles, and all their inputs/outputs, so it was easier to do it on a laptop and hit "send" than "typing" it in the little keyboard. 

image

Of course, I haven't needed that capability since, although I've toyed with writing a program for, say, every wire on my Ducati. But once you get them labeled, you only need 1-2 labels at a time. 

Attachments

Images (1)
  • image
Last edited by dlearl476
@IaM-Ray posted:

https://www.bradyid.com/label-...l-printer-pid-139535

IT says that they use Thermal is this what you have?

It's true it is thermal transfer, but unlike a printer that prints on thermal paper (that turns black in the sun) it uses a carbon paper-like tape that is heat transferred onto vinyl. 

https://www.slideshare.net/mob...bel-printer-brochure 

 

imageimageimage

Attachments

Images (3)
  • image
  • image
  • image
Last edited by dlearl476

 

Real men don't need labels and documentation.

They're the wiring equivalent of reading the instructions. A real car guy can look at any bundle of wires and instinctively know where to start messing. And you don't repair so much as keep adding new stuff until it's all better.

My VS was delivered new to me obviously wired by some true car guys. The telltale hints were everywhere. Like in the engine compartment where a green wire was led to a cleverly hidden spot behind a bunch of other stuff and then butt-spliced to a purple wire. There was no reason to do that other than to throw off wusses who rely on color codes and labels to figure things out.

I'm a car guy. I just knew the purple wire and the green wire were the same one. Developing a feel for this kind of stuff can take a lifetime.

But it's under the dash where the 'car guy' school of wiring reaches high art. A mysterious, thick bundle of wires emerges from under some carpeting and then immediately disappears up and behind a steel crossbeam, where it's tightly zip-tied in place. Most of the wires from the instruments and panel switches are led into the same blind space.

You can play with lights and mirrors as much as you want, while lying upside down on the floor, clutch pedal jabbing you in the ear, but you will never actually see what is connected to what up there. Color codes? Labels? Seriously?

Wiring and wiring repair on my car is done by feel and intuition. If you can't follow a wire through the maze to its source (about half the time), it's best to cut it off and wire in a new connection. The more wires, the more impressive it all looks when you're done taping it back together.

Labels? Nah.

Car guys just remember what everything does.

 

Last edited by Sacto Mitch

I once visited a computer Data Center in the US Pentagon.  After they check your references and scan you and probe you and poke you and pluck you and badge you and assign a Marine guard to you, you then have to walk down endless corridors and around a few bends and then take an elevator up or down (I honestly can't remember which, after the turns) and then they re-scan you and re-probe you and re-poke you and re-pluck you before allowing you to enter their sacred data space, all the while followed closely by that Marine Captain just waiting to throw your butt out of there if you mess up.

Once inside the Data Center, which I had to walk up a set of 6 or 7 steps to enter, I was led to our equipment which was a string of disk storage arrays, each the size of a kitchen refrigerator, all in a row in the middle of the room and our field install guys were just finishing up the install.  I looked through a hole in the floor where all of the interconnecting cables are lain and was surprised to see a huge mass of cables less than 12" below the floor - like an impervious carpet of cables, totally covering any trace of the real floor, just lying there and way more than needed just for our equipment.  "Wow", I said to one of the Pentagon IT guys, "Is this an older Data Center?  Is your sub-floor only 18" deep?"   

I was surprised because Data Center sub-floors are, by code, usually 24" - 36+" deep and then a support floor is suspended above that to give you space to run your equipment cables neatly under the floor and/or service them in the future.  

One of my DC field guys heard the question and answered it for Mr. Pentagon: 

"Nope, what y'all are lookin' at is a 8 FOOT sub-floor space, an' that's almost totally filled up with old cables" (as he gives Mr. Pentagon a cold look).  "When they reconfigure any-thang they just cut off the connector ends of the cables, leave 'em lyin' there and drag new cables through on top for the new stuff.  Someday, their Devil's payment's gonna come due and they'll have to pay someone to remove all those cables and some guys're gonna sell all-a them cables for the copper value and they gonna make a killin".

So there it is........   Your Gum-mint, hard at work.

Last edited by Gordon Nichols

I worked for a major university health system at one point and helped design and install the first internet network there (still remember my arpanet ID). We surveyed a wiring closet used for 3270 terminals and it had a similar appearance to Gordon's data center subfloor. 

I asked how they knew which terminals were attached to which cable and the closet team said it had been that way when they were hired. They said they just started unplugging cables one-by-one and waited to see which nursing unit called the help desk...

Oh, the early days.

 

"Nope, what y'all are lookin' at is a 8 FOOT sub-floor space, an' that's almost totally filled up with old cables" (as he gives Mr. Pentagon a cold look).  "When they reconfigure any-thang they just cut off the connector ends of the cables, leave 'em lyin' there and drag new cables through on top for the new stuff.  Someday, their Devil's payment's gonna come due and they'll have to pay someone to remove all those cables and some guys're gonna sell all-a them cables for the copper value and they gonna make a killin".

So there it is........   Your Gum-mint, hard at work.

Similar to an episode early on in my career. I was an installation supervisor at a company that did 90% of its work for the RBOCs (regional Bell operating companies). New Jersey bell hired us to mine out abandoned power cable from overhead cable racks (think cable tray, but everything is laced instead of ty-wrapped) in a block-long multi-story, decades-old central office in Newark. I placed six guys on that job for 9 months on T&E (time & expenses). They mined out I don't recall how many tractor-trailer loads full of scrap insulated stranded copper cable, most of it 750 MCM (about an inch in diameter with the jacket removed) from 80+ years of abandoning old cable in place. In some spots, the abandoned cable was piled over 3' thick.  It's a wonder the 5/8" anchors supporting the threaded rod which the cable racks hung from didn't pull out of the structure.  

 

You know, IIRC 750 MCM 1" diameter cable weighs about 3/4's pound per foot which, at today's copper scrap pricing (I just looked it up) would be about $2.00 PER FOOT!

A trailer container is 48 feet long so a single length of cable would bring $96 bucks at scrap prices.  Multiply that by 100 cables across the floor for $960 per layer and 100 layers high and the copper scrap price alone, per trailer is around $96,000  

Holy Moly!

Most companies (especially RBOCs) usually depreciate stuff over 12-ish years so they've already written it all off, so they pay a contractor to remove it after 20-30 years and only recently have been getting a cut of the scrap prices - They used to just give it all to the removal contractor.

But enough of how the phone company (and many others) spend the monthly payment you send to them.

Let's get back to Ed's Spyder sorting.

Sorry, Ed!

Last edited by Gordon Nichols

Thank you, Gordon. 

A few weeks ago when I did the airport photo run my neighbor followed on his bike and told me he thought the car was "crabbing." The front and rear wheels are within about 1/16 inch of the same distance apart (a smidge longer on the driver's side) so it should be pretty straight, I told him. Front track is a little wider than the back, so maybe he was seeing that? 

The car "felt" straight.

Still. I decided to center the car on the lift and run strings to measure off of to re-check toe and camber. My camber measurements were as I'd left them. A little more on the passenger than driver's rear to account for the driver's weight. 

IMG_6456

I did find that my track width, as measured from the outsides of the tires, was virtually identical front to back. So my neighbor was right.

Rear toe-in measured 3/8", almost all of it on the driver's side. The rear end of the car was constantly making a wide right turn. 

That meant setting the driver's rear wheel backward a little—with the salutatory effect of centering it better in the wheel well. I set it back around 3/16" and the new measure was 1/8 toe-in with a very slight LEFT turn. As making these adjustments requires loosening the spring plate bolts and then rocking the car/turning the tire until their relative positions diverge—an operation difficult to achieve with micrometer precision—I decided to leave well enough alone.

This also makes the left wheel base of the car about 1/4 inch longer than the right. 

?

Front toe measured zero+, or maybe just 1/16" in. I assume that's because I raised the front a little—toe seems to go out when the wheels go down and in when they go up. So we'll see if this causes any issues at high speeds in crosswinds and adjust later as needed. So far, probably not.

Took it for a 10-mile spin: very nice. The steering wheel is now maybe one spline off center, but the car feels livelier without being squirrely. Tracks and stops true. Spun it up to 5500 in second* to test the valve cover gaskets and such, and checked around the engine for oil leaks when I got home. Looks like no drips above the underpan now. And I have a new sump gasket and hardware to fix the one stud leaking under there.

Hated to do it, but...front license plate bracket.

IMG_6460IMG_6464

This attaches via the last two (or probably any two) of the top grille screws to put the plate low and on the left. I drilled for lightness and painted it body color to keep it inconspicuous as possible, though still best to delete it I think.

This car is for sale, if anyone is interested.

IMG_6457

--

*A word on the engine: it is loud, but very pleasant to hear. Quite "authentic" right now in its low RPM softness and hesitancy. Even in its present state of tune it feels like it's rarin' to go above 4000, and very eager still at 5500. I feel like once I get a proper spark map dialed in and then tweak the air-fuel ratios it should be even better.

 

Attachments

Images (4)
  • IMG_6457
  • IMG_6456
  • IMG_6460
  • IMG_6464

Yeah, not going to list it until the final tuning is done but open to offers.

Turns out I can't program the Black Box ignition module without a laptop running Windows 7 or previous...so I've got my bro-in-law setting up an old box to send me.

Hope to get that sorted before the weather goes away. And after that it's onto the Webers, which seem to work pretty well after Carey & co. went through them. But the wideband will tell the tale.

I figure it'll be spring before I can list. Not in a big hurry.

Short update: test-drive yesterday including some highway felt very good. No more tire rubbing in the fenders on sharp, fast turns; stable at speed, just a subtle hint of cowl shake at 60 mph. Revved it up to 6k in second gear getting on the beltway and the engine felt and sounded very willing to do more.

On the way home I pulled into the landfill and drove onto the scale, which read 1720 with about 2/3-3/4 of a tank of gas. Weighed myself and my briefcase when I got home: 171.

So, 1549 pounds wet/empty. Seems about right.

Idled down to Mariner Park to try a couple pics, but it was pretty busy down there & a trio of students were trying to rehearse their lines for a Shakespeare play so I didn't stay long.

IMG_6471IMG_6479

Checked the engine: no oil drips apparent. Everything in order.

Attachments

Images (2)
  • IMG_6471
  • IMG_6479
Last edited by edsnova

From one Journalist to another (through me), a genuine "Tip 'O the Hatlo Hat" from Jimmy Hatlo, Illustrator for the Hearst Syndicate newspapers and one who brightened everyone's day for many years, just as you have done with your Blog and posts here.  Now we can all watch Merklin the Magician build his Dune Buggy.....  But it won't be the same.

Well Done, Ed!

hatlo-hat-tip-300 

Attachments

Images (1)
  • hatlo-hat-tip-300

So all week I've been playing with these carbs. Finally (I think!) got them dialed in today.

To recap: last Saturday a.m. I headed out to maybe show the car at an unofficial gathering nearby. I was a block from home when I aborted the mission: popping, blurby backfires, rough going told me I should once again clean some idle jets.

So I decided to install the Jet Doctors, and did that, and pulled out all the idles and mains and doused them with Gumout and blew a little air through some orifices on the carbs and splashed carb cleaner and/or gasoline on my face, as one does.

IMG_E6533

Got it back together and went to reset the mixture screws and it wouldn't set.

Noticed just a tiny bit of slop in the hex bar on the driver's side so i figured what-the-hey and cut the mount towers off the air cleaner bases, drilled and tapped and socked in a couple 5/16 heim joints, and epoxied some artfully cut down bolts in the hex bar ends. Crossed that off my punch list and returned to trying to set the carbs right.

Long story even longer: they wouldn't set. Three times I started over, warmed up the car, detached the linkage, set the mixture screws a half turn out from gently seated, set the idle stops a half turn in, checked the pull with the snail and got them even, and then went after the mixture screws for best idle.

Oh, it idled just fine. But underway I'd get those same symptoms, more or less: A bit of a stumble on takeoff. Popping on light acceleration. Popping on decel. Blurgy transition to the mains.

I mean...drivable. Almost not bad. But I know what it's supposed to act like, and this wern't it.

I pulled out the carb cleaner again...DWIA2126

Turns out that left side carb, with the linkage attached, was not quite setting back down on the idle stops. Oh, it got mighty close! So close I didn't see it—three times.

It was less than a paper's width off the stop. I loosened the lock nuts on the down rod and turned the rod about a half turn. Tightened up. Rechecked with the snail. Went around the mixture screws again. Took a ride and finally we're back to normal.

Oh, it still needs attention. Nothing like Danny's yet.

But now we'll be working from a slop-free (slop-proof!) linkage kit as we try to get this beast the best it can be.

Attachments

Images (2)
  • IMG_E6533
  • DWIA2126

Good catch, Danny. My error. I actually started with the mixture screws one full turn out, and after adjustment I think they are out something close to 1--1.5 turn all around. Turning them in a quarter turn made it lose rpms, so I turned them out a little....

Half turn in from where they touched was where I put the idle speed screws to start.

The idle jets all say 50, but I don't know if Jake reamed them when he built the engine. From what I read on the innerwebs it seems likely they're a little bigger than 50.

Pump jets say 50. I don't know what the mains say.

Ed...The only thing I can add to your punch list is this. The two aluminum bars that slide onto the hex bar may have their holes drilled at different lengths. This changes the throttle positions on the carbs in relation to each other all thru their rotation except at idle. The best way to check this is to remove the hex bar and slide the two aluminum bars onto the hex bar, then look to see if the holes on the opposite ends of the aluminum bars are in perfect alignment. (mine were off by 1 mm)   It can get worse. Tighten the aluminum bars onto the hex bar with the set screws and again check for perfect alignment in the opposite holes.  What I found is that the alignment changed every time I moved and reset them.  This is why I went to the  Vintage Speed Throttle linkage and never looked back.  It also looks more "period relative" !...Bruce

Bruce, I'm cornfused:  Are you talking about these arms?

Oldhex

And if so, wouldn't any differences in the angle of the arms in relation to the hex bar be compensated for by the adjustable downlinks?

Danny and I adjust the idle stops with the linkage disconnected at one end, then conect the linkage and adjust the downlinks at 2500 - 3000 rpm to tune them in which makes them even.  

Are you talking about something different?

Attachments

Images (1)
  • Oldhex

.

The wise men tell us that the key to getting rid of linkage gremlins is to get the down links (the adjustable links that run vertically) dead-on vertical. That eliminates having to guesstimate and make a bunch of angles the same because, well, vertical is vertical, right?

The problem is that that's near impossible, so you make it as close to vertical as you can and then think clean thoughts.

The guy who set mine up is a pro and he pretty much nailed it. After six years, both sides are still about as close to each other as possible. When you hear an engine with both sides in synch, you never forget it. You can tell if a car driving past is in synch or not just from that sound.

For a long time, I thought I had synch or jetting issues or some dirt in the jets between idle and about 2500 rpm.

Miraculously, that all went away when I found a distributor without spark scatter.

Before you get mired in the whole jetting and linkage thing, I'd strongly recommend checking for spark scatter with a timing light by slowly working your way up the rev range from idle. It's easier and much less painful than what lies in wait for you down that other rabbit hole.

.

Last edited by Sacto Mitch

Ed ....Yes, those are the arms I was talking about. Centerline to centerline should be equal. If they are not, then the pull radius will be different from side to side.  It might be easier to visualize if one side was an inch shorter than the other side. Obviously they would start out from the same position at idle but as the throttle is opened, one side will reach WOT first. (Wide Open Throttle) The carbs would never be in sync all thru the process except at idle. The little pull rods will not compensate for the difference in pull radius.  I hope this helps.

Maybe to prove it to yourself, try setting the throttle, at say, 1500 rpm and get an airflow measurement with your "snail".  At that point adjust the carb linkage so that the snail reads equally on both sides. Then reset the throttle to 2200 rpm and take another snail reading. if everything is perfect, the snail should read higher but equal on both carbs. If not, it's a good guess where the problem is.  Just like Stan says, then it's JB weld and re-drill time to make the centers the same

The same for the lock/set screw that holds those arms to the hex bar. Each time you loosen one and retighten it, you will get a different snail reading.

After screwing around a lot and making some modifications, I was never happy with that linkage system so over the wall it went into my secret parts disposal system.

As I said, I used the Vintage Speed linkage without serious problems plus there is the advantage of being able to simply disconnect the linkage (magnetically) without having to readjust it all again. For perfection the "wheel/cable" system is even better.

Dual carbs are a PIA but when adjusted perfectly, it is a sweet sound to hear !

My guess is that the manufacturing tolerances are not up to par on the hex bar system for starters..............Bruce

The synch thing only really matters up to about 50% throttle. After that the throttle plate is open wide enough that you won't feel it, and the motor probably won't either.

What I did: I put a set screw on both sides of each arm, and the center pull also. I used red loctite. The threads on CB linkage are 1/4-20 'Murican threads. Then I never touched them again. Every hardware store should have Allen set-screws.

If you're lucky enough to have a Spyder, it's easy to see all the angles, you can step back and look at it, especially if the rear clamshell is off.

You Speedster guys can either use an angle gauge(I have a 12" digital readout level that was inexpensive and can be calibrated for whatever is "level" for you. Or, you can set them up while on the engine stand before installation.

.

@Stan Galat posted:

Alas, he has a Black Box and a locked out distributor. Down the rabbit hole he goes....



OK, so there aren't any springs or weights or pivoting bits to set the advance, but the spark still gets made by the same genuine made-in-China electronic gizmo, no?

I think I'd still want to check for spark scatter just to rule that out before descending into the darkness.

.

It was 40 degrees F when I got up this morning so of course I ran the car 25 miles out to Hunt Valley's unofficial, semi-social-distanced Cars & Coffee to test the seat heaters (which worked niiice) and

DEBUT THE CAR IN PUBLIC

The result was pretty much as expected.

I got basically swarmed as soon as I pulled in, so I backed into a slot near some VWs, as is right and proper.

IMG_E6564

First guy who said anything pronounced it the "coolest car here." The second guy declared there was "no plastic whatsoever" on the vehicle. And I did correct him.IMG_E6566IMG_E6567

I was happy to see @East Coast Bruce there (pictured below with a friend of his whose name slipped my mind). Bruce was kind enough to stand quietly, nodding for like five minutes while I droned on insufferably about all the crap I did to the car.

IMG_E6569

One guy did express tentative interest in purchasing a 550 Spyder replica so we exchanged numbers.

Plan to show it in Annapolis tomorrow and I think after that we'll put some Stabil in the tank and top it off and call it a season.

Attachments

Images (4)
  • IMG_E6564
  • IMG_E6566
  • IMG_E6567
  • IMG_E6569
@Sacto Mitch posted:

.



OK, so there aren't any springs or weights or pivoting bits to set the advance, but the spark still gets made by the same genuine made-in-China electronic gizmo, no?

I think I'd still want to check for spark scatter just to rule that out before descending into the darkness.

.

Mitch I think you're right and I will do it but here's the thing:

Currently the 009 (copy?) with Pertronix is my spark system. It is not yet "locked out" and it works like they work. I know damn well I have spark scatter in the mid throttle, mid rpm range. That is the nature of this beast.

The engine runs very nicely right now. I have not taken apart the hexbar to check the downrod hole centerline but I did check the angles on the outriggers and they are the same side to side. Remember, Raby built the engine and Cary Hines set it up so it lacks some of the amateurish oversights some engines like this come with. It's good.

But not perfect.

So I have two main tasks left to accomplish. I am not sure in what order but I think this is it.

1. Receive from my bro-in-law a WinTel laptop running a newly installed version of Windows 7; load my "Black Box" installation/tuning program onto that, and then pull and lock-out the disty and wire up the Black Box. The system comes with a standard spark map and @DannyP has shared his car's map with me so I think I have two reasonably good places to range between as I dial in an advance curve that's right for this engine. I'm running less cam and lower static compression so I expect we'll run more spark advance throughout than Danny does with his hi-po 2165. I also have the parts I need to add a vacuum advance to the system so the light load timing can go way above the SOC standard 30 degrees @3000 I am running now.

2. Screw in an O2 sensor and take wideband air/fuel readings while underway under a variety of conditions, from just off idle and no load to WOT up hill, and as needed adjust the carb's jetting and various screws and geegaws so that it reads around 14 to 1 at idle, about 13 to 1 at WOT and about 14.5 at flat highway cruise.

There is a small but not insignificant chance I might do the latter adjustments on a chassis dynomometer, depending on availability.

.

Jeesh, Ed, paragraphs 1. and 2. above sound like the clinical definition of a rabbit hole and I have no doubt that you will enjoy every minute of exploring the innermost recesses thereof.

And you will almost certainly emerge, a few weeks from now, with a much better running engine.

I'm only suggesting you look for spark scatter and maybe note how much there is (and where on the curve) before you venture below. Could help establish a baseline before you start messing around with all that other stuff.

My own 009 clone said 'Pertronix' on the side, but I think Pertronix make only the spark module, and that the whole mechanical body comes out of the same Chinese factory that they all do.

Whenever I would set the advance, I'd see the timing mark at idle and from about 2500 rpm on up, but in between, it would literally disappear - no timing mark at all.

Thing is, even so, the engine never really ran poorly. It was pretty smooth, didn't pop or cough, and transitioned pretty well. But if I tried to hold a steady engine speed at, say, 2000 rpm, there was a little, nagging miss that wouldn't go away. I also found I could set the mixture/volume screws until it just purred, but the next time out I'd have to set them again to get the same degree of smoove.

I swapped in the basic CB Magnaspark II, and the timing mark suddenly appeared across the whole rev range, and the nagging miss was gone, too.

Don't want to belabor the point, but if you're getting serious about getting dialed in, here's another data point that might help - and it's pretty easy to check.

.

@edsnova posted:

What you seem to be saying, @Sacto Mitch, is that if there is spark scatter from the 009 now, there will still be spark scatter after I put the Black Box on top of it.

And this would seem to be both an obvious thing and something I had not heretofore considered as a possibility...

I would bet you a malted beverage that this is not going to be the case. Once the Black Box is active, the distributor will only serve two functions:

  1. The ignition pickup
  2. Actually distributing spark (which doesn't need to be very accurate to be accurate)

100% of the advance curve is in the box.

.

Ed, I honestly don't know.

But if you're having problems with spark later on, it might help to know what the dizzy is doing all by itself before you add the box.

And it's just a matter of hooking up a timing light and watching the timing mark as you slowly run up the revs.

I DO think that most of the problems with the ersatz 009's are in the advance mechanism, but it's hard to know for sure.



.

The correct translation for black box is: Flugschreiber.

I am very mildly disappointed in you for making SchwartzBox up. I know you are at one with the Schwartz and all.

But congratulations are in order, it can be VERY difficult to get older stuff to work on Windows 10. It will be fine, and then it won't be after the darn thing auto-updates and irrevocably deletes old drivers that worked fine.

I had to buy a new USB-serial converter after my 2006 or so Radio Shack model ceased to work a couple months ago. Apparently Prolific or FTDI(can't remember which one) got tired of all the cheap backward-engineered and cloned Chinese copies out there. They obsoleted all the clones and also legit products that happened to be old.......

We do have fun.

Here's some shots of this a.m.'s run to the town dock in Annapolis. Many thanks to Cory D for literally showing me the way here.

Contrasting automotive stylings of 1955:

IMG_E6575

Ran very well on the way down, though with ambient temps in the low 40s, oil temp barely touched 180. The passenger side clam latch stuck and I had to shake the engine cover to get it to open. 

IMG_E6577

It is, as the kids say, "Rocktoberfest."

IMG_E6578

Cory did not even open the Hoopty. I was a little sad about that.

IMG_E6579

The guy with this '62(?) Bug is a detailer. Which you could have guessed.

IMG_E6580

Donors everywhere...

IMG_E6582

The one guy on the lot with a legitimately smaller car.

IMG_E6583

Yes, yes, it eez un SS.

IMG_E6585

Attachments

Images (8)
  • IMG_E6575
  • IMG_E6577
  • IMG_E6578
  • IMG_E6579
  • IMG_E6580
  • IMG_E6582
  • IMG_E6583
  • IMG_E6585

That's great, Ed. It is tough competition, but I suspect that your attention to detail will be recognized by at least one of the 10,534 judges or junior judges. What's up with that? Maybe they hope to help generate donations by broadening the participation. In any case, it looks like a great and timely event that should put your car on a prominent stage. Take some good pics and best wishes.

.

I've always thought the hard tonneau one of the coolest accessories to these cars, if the aerodynamic theory behind its justification was a little thin.

The streamlined driver's headrests of the '50s were equally cool, even if they were mostly justified by 'scientific' antecedents like this:

Flashy

But I've noticed you've stepped up your game in the area of CAD design by using a box from a space heater/ventilation fan - technically, an aerodynamic device.

This attention to detail is not lost on us.

.

Attachments

Images (1)
  • Flashy
Last edited by Sacto Mitch
@Sacto Mitch posted:

.

I've always thought the hard tonneau one of the coolest accessories to these cars, if the aerodynamic theory behind its justification was a little thin.

It makes total aerodynamic sense on a car with a driver-only windscreen, or none at all. Behind a full windshield, either glass or plexi, not so much.

I drive three quarters of the time solo, and mostly when it's warm, so I don't feel the need. Besides, I have the canvas tonneau that I can run with.

It's definitely cool, though.

Very nice, heavy workable stuff I wish I'd had when I started the project. Hammers out like

@DannyP is spot-on re the aero effect of it. The Germans tested and the tonneau was second only to the "Buckelwagon" design which authorities nixed for lack of rear visibility.

I do think the tonneau looks cool even with the full screen, as seen on the car from which I took inspiration.

IMG_E6699

Attachments

Images (1)
  • IMG_E6699
Last edited by edsnova

A number of times I got to watch a black man in his 80s hand form brass and Sheet Metal for Stanley steamers the man was so proud of  is work he was always eager  to show interested people his craft in every detail. Unfortunately before I realized this would have been a great stop on the Pumpkin Run in Pennsylvania sadly, Clarence passed away

Last edited by Alan Merklin

.

I had mostly frittered away four years at college without finding any academic discipline I especially wanted to devote the rest of my life to when I asked a teacher I respected for some advice.

He said not to worry about it much. We are who we are and will turn out mostly the same no matter which path we take. We'll succeed or not, prosper or not, lead or follow, be brilliant or not, and ultimately feel fulfilled or not whichever craft, profession, or enterprise we choose.

I'm amazed at the number of people who are 'finding themselves' through YouTube channels - turning their passions into focused pursuits for which there would never  have been dedicated booths at any career day seminar.

Maybe YouTube is the new home for those lost legions who would have, in simpler times, majored in Sociology.

.

Last edited by Sacto Mitch

I can still remember sitting at some high-school function, listening as some sort of speaker or another droned on about "following our passion". I remember laughing out loud as I sat there.

My passion at the time was fast cars and pretty girls, and at the time I could afford quality in neither of them. In my limited experience, it was already pretty clear that nobody was going to just give me the money required for either of them. Regardless, I was pretty sure that if I followed my passions to their logical endpoints, I was more likely to end up in prison than being Time Magazine's "Man of the Year", so the whole thing kind of rolled off my back.

The "follow you passion" thing always sounded like the Haight/Ashbury philosophy of somebody who was blessed with either good looks or a trust fund (or both) anyhow. It was understood that smart-mouthed punks from small towns in flyover country would need to work in order to acquire things. The trick was in the matter of finding a trade or craft (and that it would be something practical was without question) which suited the raw material I'd been given, and which the marketplace would fairly compensate. I needed it to be tangible, something where I could directly see the results of my effort. Becoming a small cog in a mighty wheel was not going to cut it.

My problem was impatience. School seemed like kicking the can down the road, since I couldn't really major in women, cars, and heavy metal. I was wired to work, and so I worked. A lot.

I didn't have a friend named Steve Wozniak, so I wasn't going to "build the future". I'd grown up digging ditches and baling hay, and my lack of exposure to the nerve-centers of the Death Star left me with the distinct impression that my life's work would be... well... work. I understood that my vocation would probably not be a passion or a vacation, but rather something I'd need to get up and do every day for the next 50 years or so-- something I didn't actively hate, but also something I wasn't going to do just for the heck of it.

I was glad to eventually find something I was good at which was compensated at a level I felt was comparatively fabulous. My search was certainly not targeted in any way, and I doubt I would have chosen it if all of the options had been laid out in front of me. I certainly didn't leverage all of the raw material I'd been gifted.

But it suited me, and it turned out I was good at this thing and that people wanted to give me decent enough money to do it. It mashed buttons inside my head I didn't know I had. I wouldn't have done it for free, but I didn't mind the lousy stuff that drove most other people away. It was unquestionably better than any job that came before it. The stress that is baked in the cake releases just the right amount of adrenaline to clear my head and point me straight problems which need to be solved-- and if there has one thing I have consistently liked, it is an adrenaline high. The stubbornness that checkmated me in other undertakings drove me to solutions in this vocation. It's been a good fit.

My job afforded me the opportunity to explore many avenues I never would have had otherwise, and paid for things and experiences I never thought I'd have-- but I've never thought about doing it for fun. When I am done doing it, I'll be forever done with it.

I've got family and hobbies, and I try to live with a purpose greater than my own comfort in order to provide fulfilment. At the core, like most of us-- I'm selfish and lazy, and I've tried to shake these tendencies off. "Following my muse" has always seemed like a great way to make sure that nothing I did really mattered to anybody but me.

I know that there are people for whom work is something they'd do for free, but they seem to be outliers and freaks of nature to beat up old pipefitters like me. I look at it the same way I look at professional athletes or titans of commerce or exceptionally attractive people-- it's nice for them, but it has no relevance whatsoever to my situation. I feel like my situation is more common than not.

I'm running what I've got, and what I've got is baked in the cake. I'm not chasing after any rainbows until my slice of cheese is well and fully moved. I figure I'll know when that time comes. If that means I'm forever a small fish in a small pond, I'm 100% good with it... as long as I've got a family who loves me, a decent place to live, cars to tinker with, and some purpose larger than myself.

We should all be so blessed.

By the way, I don't fall into that hippy dippy find yourself bucket. I just have never known exactly what I wanted to do. I did know what I found interesting and ended up lucking into jobs that turned into careers, until I would be lured away into something else. Any efforts I exerted in shaping my my job paths failed for the most part. I got used to people saying "no."

I never thought I was describing you (and hoped you'd know I didn't mean you)-- just all of the gauzy "guidance" I received back in 1980 or so.

I preferred fast girls and pretty cars but whatever.

I flailed most of my life but that was the era we grew up in. I was a world class dope so my dad put me in aircraft school so the former military guys could slap me around some -it worked. From there everything seemed achievable.

Now, my son is graduating from a maritime academy. A whole lot smarter than I ever was. I told him repeatedly about all the things my dad tried to teach me and failed. Seems like some of my chiding stuck.

Happy Thanksgiving to you all!

It’s common this time of year to reflect on life and the things for which we're thankful.  I try to make it a daily habit and lately in these reflections I've stumbled onto something I’m continuing to ponder.  It seems to me the things of which we are most afraid, and the things for which we are most thankful, are largely things that are out of our control. Mmmmmm.
Anyway, I have been a lucky man.  I still am.  I have done many, many things to keep the wolves at bay.  I’ve made it, lost it all, made it again, lost it again, and managed to land on my feet yet another time.
Somehow, in spite of my tracing parabolic family finance curves, my wife and I raised two daughters that are way more accomplished in their 20’s than most in their 30's.  They're real braggin’ material and they make my heart swell to bursting.  I tried to instill in them the ability to take a risk and to live a life with purpose.
I also tried to let them know that the myth of “Do what you love and you’ll never work a day in your life” is a myth.   I’m lucky now to be doing something I adore, and as a result I work harder than I ever have done.  (Dad's philosophy tenet number 67: If it proports to be a life philosophy, but it fits on a bumper sticker, it's probably a punch line.)
No matter what we do, there’s always an element of work.  Don’t avoid the work, revel in it.  Work is restorative, it can give meaning and context to all that we do. It's the only thing that moves mountains.
Everything I’ve done has in some way informed the things that followed. I still use things daily that I learned as a doorman.  The kind of care and planning that goes into working a job site in 38 degree rainy weather without freezing to death, can make a budget meeting with a board of directors a much more pleasant experience.  And even if that meeting gets unpleasant, one can always seek comfort in the knowledge that at least an icy trickle of water isn’t currently running down your butt crack. (Could be worse. Could be raining).
Nothing is waisted and effort is always rewarded…eventually, and not always how you’d pictured it.  There’s always something new to learn, and wonder can always be found in the gifts, expertise, and fortitude of those around you.
I’m no where near as eloquent as our Donald Hall of the pipe fitters, but he inspires me to share.  Thanks for all the hard work, Stan.  Happy Thanksgiving to all.

The buck starts here.

IMG_6765

As usual, we're starting with scraps I happened to have saved from other misadventures.

IMG_6768

The wide end pieces have previously served as a boat engine hoist and probably for some other things. They're PT and over a decade old—nicely seasoned, straight and hard as rock.

IMG_6770IMG_6771

According to the profiles I took of the dash and rear scuttle, most of that closest piece above needs to be planed away. And I don't have a power planer or even an old school hand plane.

The flat pieces of cardboard and masonite I used to find the shape both seemed to lay-in just fine, but I couldn't really affix them at all four corners for a careful study all by myself.

Going to have to think about the next step, including whether maybe the next step is a full-scale mock-up in papier mache or carved foam to get the real news in 3-d.

Attachments

Images (4)
  • IMG_6765
  • IMG_6768
  • IMG_6770
  • IMG_6771

Just an aside, but the mention of the Mosquito (aeroplane, that is), in terms of the relationship between wood and metal, made me think of my father.

He was an untrained bucksaw carpenter, but was employed during WWII to build Mosquitos here in Canada.  He could build almost anything out of lumber - he once build our house using the plans he kept in his head - and I guess that's what was needed when putting together a plywood airplane.

So, never underestimate what can be done with a few sticks of wood.

Right, Ed?

Having never done this before, I'm no expert, but I guess making the form will take at least as long as the finished piece. I'm 4 hours into the project right now. If it takes another 10-12 to get the buck right, that's no big deal.

The actual part will only be 3-5 pieces: two plates with attachment studs to be riveted on the back, the main cover, and maybe a bit of angle tucked in along the door edge to stiffen it up.

This sheet material wants to be formed, so I'm hoping once I get the buck just right it won't be too terrible a struggle to make the actual tonneau.

@Sacto Mitch teak is too expensive for me but as an TD replica owner I agree polished wood looks pretty cool on an old car.

Ed, you might try emailing or calling Wray Schelin (Sha-Leen) at Pro Shapers for his advice on how to shape that.

He's about the best there is and runs regular classes on metal shaping.

https://www.proshaper.com

My guess is he'll tell you to segment the buck more with narrower strips slightly apart to get the curves and flow you need, but whado I know.....  Tell him what you have for tools available and see what he comes up with.

Tell him that Gordon from the Porsche 356 club sent you - He should remember.

Last edited by Gordon Nichols

It is, I believe, slightly arched toward the outside edge. It will be folded over on the front and flanged on the other three edges, with the inside edge rounded over and the outside and rear flat at 90-ish degrees.

Here's what a real one looks like, flipped over (as stolen from type550.com):

real1

Gonna re-check the front-rear profiles tonight and transfer them to the edges of the 2x lumber. If the shape is as I think, I'll dig out my dado blades and run that last board on my table saw six or eight times, adjusting the depth as I move across to get the curve right, then finish with the belt sander this weekend. Pretty sure I'll want a solid or near-solid buck for this.

If it's curved like I think, the rear flange would be the only tricky one—and should not be too hard to fold in since the area under the panel is completely open. Think of it as a pleat. You could hide a couple of them under the mounting plate for that far pin and they'd be basically invisible.

Or (and!) before I even set it down on the buck, I can roll the whole panel in my little  bead machine, using two rollers with no bead, to stretch the top just a little and make it want to curve, as in an English wheel. I've also requested a set of spoiler dies for Christmas, which could impart a pretty major curve across the panel directly if needed (it won't be though).

Thanks, @Gordon Nichols, for reminding me of Schelin. If I still lived in Fairfield I'd probably indenture myself to him for a bit. I will reach out. There is certainly an order of operations to this that will make it either comparatively doable or damn near impossible. Maybe he'll tell me.

Attachments

Images (1)
  • real1

Thanks for the picture Ed.  If I was doing this, I would wheel the panel to get the arch, and then I would make a set of tipping dies for my bead roller.  You can tip the flange in about 20 degrees each pass and get it close and finish with a hammer and dolly. In the curved corner I would try to shrink the metal, if you have one available.

100_2573100_2574100_2579100_2581IMG_0030https://www.lazzemetalshaping.com

Ed,  check out the videos by Lazze, he is a master of metal working.  Unlike others, he is not a big believer in beating up the metal with hammer and shot bag, but prefers to work the metal into shape thru wheeling and shrinking/stretching.  I had never done any metal shaping before watching his and Wray’s videos, and was able to make motorcycle fenders  after a few tries.

The front fender in the last picture on Trusty Rusty is one I made.

Attachments

Images (5)
  • 100_2573
  • 100_2574
  • 100_2579
  • 100_2581
  • IMG_0030
Last edited by LI-Rick
@LI-Rick posted:

100_2573100_2581IMG_0030https://www.lazzemetalshaping.com

Ed,  check out the videos by Lazze, he is a master of metal working.  Unlike others, he is not a big believer in beating up the metal with hammer and shot bag, but prefers to work the metal into shape thru wheeling and shrinking/stretching.  I had never done any metal shaping before watching his and Wray’s videos, and was able to make motorcycle fenders  after a few tries.

The front fender in the last picture on Trusty Rusty is one I made.

Nice work, Rick. I'll have a look at Lazze's vids.

@edsnova I am continually amazed at your resourcefulness and persistence.  And I, too, think that your skills would be in high demand as a teacher to others wanting to get into fabricating work.

@Stan Galat you'd be lucky just to find the lumber!  

Back in May or June I wanted to build a new outside storage rack for 2 kayaks and a canoe.  NOBODY had any PT lumber when I called, but then I visited my local hardware/lumber store and told the store manager (I've known him for 30 years) about my plight and he asked, "What and how much are you looking for?"  

Really......   Just how much lumber can a kayak rack take, anyway?  Put everything I needed in the back of a pickup and it would almost disappear.  So he cut me a favor and told me to show up the next morning at their distribution center and it would be ready for pickup, just wear a mask.

It seems that they had hundreds of PT boards in all sorts of sizes but were only doling them out to a few contractors who were working on "essential" stuff - like me!

IMG_0917

Attachments

Images (1)
  • IMG_0917
Last edited by Gordon Nichols
@Stan Galat posted:

Given the price of COVID lumber, I'm not sure I could afford the buck.

Again, I had the lumber on hand because I never throw anything away. The 2x4s were (I think) part of a big work table the PO left in the garage, which I cut up and remade into a garden cart and a bar top about six years ago. Not sure of the 2x3's provenance, but I've had those four-foot bits of 2x6 since at least 2008, and I moved them to this house when my wife and I bought it.

Not saying my way of living makes any sense whatsoever. But not going to any store or buying any material or tools (so far) probably made the difference between trying this project and not bothering. I just think it's cool to be able to say I've got zero cash sunk in a particular handmade item.

It never lasts though.

Going to probably invest in a shrinking disc now and maybe buy (or make) a set of shearing dies and a tipping die.

The first time I saw a shrinking disk in action I could only think, "THAT'll never work!"

And then it miraculously did it's thing, much to my amazement, and the metal shrunk.  

There are a lot of metal working tools and techniques that I am totally unaware of, so I just plod along doing the best I can with what I have.  I do have a 150# antique blacksmith's anvil, though....  One of a few things I inherited from my Dad's shop and it comes in very handy now and then.  It's just a total bear to move around in the shop and it takes three strong people to get it up on top of a stand so most of the time it just sits in one spot.

Ed,

I took my Beck 550 out for a drive today and got some pic's for you of my Fibersteel alloy tonneau. It has about a 3/4" lip on each side and at the rear. The front is flat. I had to drill and add the two Tenax buttons at the front, drill and rivet then bend two hard but flexible plastic tabs to the right side of the tonneau so it can attach to the side curtain studs. I cut a 2" long x 1" wide x 1/8" thick piece of steel, drilled a hole in it and tapped it. I mounted that behind the firewall with two rivets and drilled one hole in the back of the tonneau to mount the it to the rear where you see the SS screw. It takes about 5 minutes or less to install or remove it. Hope this helps you a little in you fab up.

BTW, I think you know I have the same Raby built series engine with DTM fan housing. I believe our engines may have been built at the same time. My ally seats were hand made by Chris Runge. I have great pads for them but they are supper comfortable with out any padding. "I don't have to show you no stinking padding!"

PeteMy Beck 550's Fibersteel Alloy Tonneau [1)My Beck 550's Fibersteel Alloy Tonneau [2)My Beck 550's Fibersteel Alloy Tonneau [3)My Beck 550's Fibersteel Alloy Tonneau [4)My Beck 550's Fibersteel Alloy Tonneau [5)My Beck 550's Fibersteel Alloy Tonneau [6)My Beck 550's Fibersteel Alloy Tonneau [7)My Beck 550's Fibersteel Alloy Tonneau [8)My Beck 550's Fibersteel Alloy Tonneau [9)

Attachments

Images (9)
  • My Beck 550's Fibersteel Alloy Tonneau  (1)
  • My Beck 550's Fibersteel Alloy Tonneau  (2)
  • My Beck 550's Fibersteel Alloy Tonneau  (3)
  • My Beck 550's Fibersteel Alloy Tonneau  (4)
  • My Beck 550's Fibersteel Alloy Tonneau  (5)
  • My Beck 550's Fibersteel Alloy Tonneau  (6)
  • My Beck 550's Fibersteel Alloy Tonneau  (7)
  • My Beck 550's Fibersteel Alloy Tonneau  (8)
  • My Beck 550's Fibersteel Alloy Tonneau  (9)

Right you are, Bruce. Could've swore I had one but nowhere to be found. Anyway I got the buck pretty close to right with the routers, dado and the belt sander.

And with a little MAP heating and watery sponge cooling this evening the metal laid right down on it.IMG_6810

IMG_6812IMG_6813

I think my next step is to set up and practice with the bead roller until I can stay on a line, and then buy or make a tipping die to help with that long outside fold. I could do it with the seamer but rolling would probably be much neater.

Attachments

Images (3)
  • IMG_6812
  • IMG_6813
  • IMG_6810

You are very brave Ed !  I've never done any metal shaping except for spinning copper over a  wooden core (buck?) on a lathe and then finish it with a hammer.  It would be scary to do a hunk of sheet metal as big as you're doing !

Heres a pic of the copper cover I made to fit over the ships compass on my binnacle that came off a Japanese cargo ship sunk over in Kwajalan  Island in 1944......Bruce

Attachments

Images (1)
  • IMG_3163

I looked at a lot of metal spinning u-tubes first. The very first time I ever saw metal spinning done was at the Wallace Silverware Factory in New Haven (Think). The guy was spinning solid silver creme pitchers. I was fascinated by how simple he did it and never forgot it.

I did some smaller practice runs first to get the hang of it on my lathe. The hardest part was clamping the stock tight enough so it wouldn't spin loose from the grip of the lathe centers/drive. I finally gave up and soldered a flange on that would keep it from spinning loose. The most difficult part was forming the edge flange which I ended up doing with a hammer over a wood form.

I think I had more control doing this smaller project Ed.  Yours is massive ! How do you control warp ?  I have tried a few times to form aluminum with dismal results. Plus my total lack of ability to weld aluminum with  acceptable results. This limited my ability to correct or repair my mistakes on my own.  At least with copper I can solder with good success.  I really appreciate your work and effort on making this cover and watch very closely what your doing. I'm sitting in the front row of your readers here and paying attention. More photos and detail are especially valuable to me as the craft nut I am.

Keep up the good work Ed !.......................Bruce

P.S.  Drilling Holes....Seems simple enough huh ?  I'm laughing with you guys !  How many of us have had disasters just drilling one ? How bout Ed's stainless fuel tank when he had hard spots in the metal ? Or hole saw disasters ? Or drifting off center ? Or the wrong size hole for the tap you want to use ? Or drilled in the wrong place ? I swear, drilling holes seems simple but when I really think about it, it's probably one of the most demanding things there is to get right. Lane, Bob, Gordon,  thank you for the good laugh today !

I've had this bead roller for three years and I think I've rolled about four beads in it. It works, but it's what you get for $150 or whatever: an entry level thing. Cruising around YouTube over the past few weeks I've learned a bit about what these machines are capable of doing when in capable hands. Aside from Schelin and some others I've come across this guy—Jere Kirkpatrick. Apparently his claim to fame is having worked with Shelby on the first batch of Cobras.

He's not the only one who shows how to mod a cheap Harbor Freight or Woodward Fab bead roller into a pro machine, but he seems to be the most thoughtful.

So with Jere as a guide I (of course) rifled through my scrap metal pile and started in to fortifying my little bead roller.

Here's a three-foot piece of 3/8 x 2 mild steel bar. I cut it in half...

IMG_6816

Then notched them near the ends to allow me to make the 45-degree bends:

IMG_6818

Laid out:

IMG_6820

I traced them...

IMG_6830

Ground away the powder coat or whatever.IMG_6831

While I was at it I slotted the top shaft hole to give adjustability thereIMG_6829

Tomorrow I'll fire up ol' sparky and see about burning some wire. IMG_6827

One of the things I found that I think might end up being better than Jere's system is a power winch I took off a boat trailer I bought over a decade ago. I swear I've tried to give it away at least twice. Now I think it'll be perfect for motorizing this shop accoutrement: It's got loads of torque and a hella reduction gearbox built in. All I need is a 12 a/c to 12 DC inverter and a foot pedal controller, plus a way to attach it where the crank handle is now. But that's for later.

In between taking apart the bead roller to mod it, and working on a jewelry box I'm making for my wife for our 10th wedding anniversary, I took the seamers and a hammer to the actual Spyder part and started rolling down that inside edge.

IMG_6822

In thinking very slowly about how to make this I decided that the inside edge has to be first, in order to tuck the tail in behind the rear flange.

IMG_6825

The bottom of that skirt will be rolled up and under later. This little exercise took me about 15 minutes and, even using crude tools, it looks pretty clean.

IMG_6823

—which gives me the idea that maybe I don't need to make a tipping die to do the other bends; maybe I should try my luck with the seamer, flanger and hammers, particularly since I'm going to have to fix the wrinkles with the dolly and hammer anyway.

But I'm in no hurry.

Attachments

Images (10)
  • IMG_6830
  • IMG_6831
  • IMG_6816
  • IMG_6818
  • IMG_6820
  • IMG_6829
  • IMG_6822
  • IMG_6825
  • IMG_6823
  • IMG_6827

Spent some more time tuning up the bead roller today. Tapped three sets of quarter/20 holes to copy Kirkpatrick's "spreader."

IMG_6835IMG_6836Also tapped the upper bearing carrier and a spot next to the depth adjuster and installed a spring so the dies will unload whenever that screw is backed out.

IMG_6837IMG_6843

This isn't as trick as Kirkpatrick's "quick release" system but it should be much better than the nothing I started with.

I tested the welder at 120 and 105 with some thick metal I had in the bucket. V'd out the inside corners of my stiffening bars and let them have it.

IMG_6847

After that it was a matter of

IMG_6852

Attachments

Images (6)
  • IMG_6835
  • IMG_6836
  • IMG_6837
  • IMG_6843
  • IMG_6847
  • IMG_6852

Ed, I did something similar about 10 years ago.  I picked up a used HF bead roller off craigslist for $40, and used mostly material on hand to make it into something usable. The only other part I bought was the large pulley I found on eBay.  If you don't power it, I suggest using a wheel on the end, as it gives way more control than the crank.



Instead of a spring to retract the upper roller, I made a captured bolt.  When I crank the tension down, the roller goes down, when I release the tension, the roller goes up. I also added Zero fittings to keep the shafts greased.

Were you as surprised as I was how much deflection a piece of 3/8" steel plate had?After the bracing with the tube. there is no more deflection.IMG_1120IMG_1122

Attachments

Images (2)
  • IMG_1120
  • IMG_1122

Half inch, on mine... Yeah, Rick. I was amazed that it moved. I like your captured bolt idea but I think the spring is easier. Also, the Woodward machine I have had grease zerks as delivered, a nice touch.

I finished the spreader/depth guide and made the T handle for the depth bolt yesterday and now we're on to the motorization project. I started a thread in the Technical General section to glean advice on that.

IMG_6859IMG_6863

Attachments

Images (2)
  • IMG_6859
  • IMG_6863

@LI-Rick I'll hammer and dolly the corner a little more, to bring it out a quarter inch at the apex and smooth the folds, then run the edge through the bead roller and/or use a shrinking disc. They'll go away.

As it turned out I missed my mark at the front of the piece, mistakenly thinking I had a little wiggle room up there. So I had to remove the fold and then fold it over again about a quarter inch inside. I cut the buck down just a skosh to avoid that mistake on the next one.

Test fitting again...

IMG_6918IMG_6919IMG_6920IMG_6921

Basically we're there. I still have to turn that inside edge under; I made a little guide out of aluminum tube to aid in that endeavor. Then just smooth out the wrinkles on that corner and a tap out couple little dings on the leading edge.

I got some galvanized steel stock to make the pin holders with. The sockets will be the same things the Speedsters use to plug in the side curtains. I need to source a couple more German Tenax buttons and drill with precision to locate them on the front of the piece.

I think this is going to work.

Attachments

Images (4)
  • IMG_6918
  • IMG_6919
  • IMG_6920
  • IMG_6921
Last edited by edsnova

Spent another couple hours hammering and test fitting today. I turned the inside edge around a piece of tubing I curved in a vice.

IMG_6924IMG_6925IMG_6926IMG_6927

IMG_6929IMG_6933

I pushed out the rear outside corner a little and smacked a high spot along the back edge.

KTUE1188

The fit is now just about right.

IMG_6932

I need to wait until my shrinking disc gets here to knock down the little dings along the front edge of the piece. I may also have to put a little work into the field area in front of the rear outside corner to make the transition curve regular and smooth.

Ordered three new German Tenax lift buttons and started making my rear pin carriers. The pins are just cut bolts and the carriers are galvanized stock. They'll each get four rivets as original.

Honestly I'm thinking of making a batch of these if there's interest.

Attachments

Images (8)
  • IMG_6926
  • IMG_6924
  • IMG_6925
  • IMG_6927
  • IMG_6929
  • IMG_6933
  • KTUE1188
  • IMG_6932
Post Content
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×
×