Thunder Ranch build thread

@Michael Pickett posted:

Ed, someone is going to cherish your work for a very long time

I certainly hope it's someone on this site.

After 40+ pages here, I'm betting this has been hashed out previous, BUT . . .

If it was me and I put so much blood sweat and tears into something so remarkably deft, I really don't know how I could part with it.  But that remains the plan, correct??

It is the plan, @El Frazoo. I'm going to get the car as squared away as I can, take some pics, make some driving videos and hopefully sell it on BaT. The way it's going that may not be until next spring. 

I want to auction it, frankly, because I'm not sure what to ask. I work cheap: $20 an hour at my regular job. Even at that rate, time and materials would put this car in the high 80s. 

I also know most guys will not care to spend money on the things I've done. It's not for them.

Given my own tastes and proclivities, I have pitched Projeckt Spyder to a very small, weird and little-understood subculture within the Plastic Clown Car subculture we all inhabit. I do not know how many people inhabit this subculture of a subculture, and I have no idea how much money they have. I just have a feeling: maybe I am not alone. Maybe there are others like me. Maybe—just maybe—some of them have the means to pay me for doing what they themselves cannot imagine doing for themselves.

This was always going to be an experiment in finding the market. 

How much could a small-motor plastic 550 be worth? 

A pretty nice one much like mine went for $40k on BaT the other day. It had the aluminum ovals on the rockers. It had the barberpole vinyl. Had the plastic windscreen. He even put one Bendix fuel pump in the driver's side cranny. 

—But not the correct two Bendix pumps. 

It also had quite a few cracks and blemishes in the gelcoat.

Not a Raby engine. No word on HP or gearing. No Vintage 190s.

VW pedals. Chinese gauges. Correct handbrake but in the incorrect location. No functional jack points, nor reproduction Spyder jack. The horns were not Frenched-in underneath like the originals, and my car. No brake cooling ducts. Not sure about the front grill. VW gas tank as usual. Fuel filler low as standard. Diamond tuck upholstered firewall on the engine side. 

No Knechts. No turn-key latches on the clam or front lid. Undersides of the lids not smoothed and painted body color like mine. No inner clam Swiss cheese thingie, nor any aluminum riveted junk hand-formed to mimic the real cars. No correct clam hold-up thing with the ratcheting effect. No "seat" for the spare tire nor any K-member framework on the rear chassis. No dust excluder brushes on the rear control arms. No aluminum underpan. No 547-type breather tube and fake oil tank next to a real, functional oil tank for pre-oil and starvation protection.

I could go on. I probably will some time.

My point is, every one of these details, plus myriad others I can't even remember, took time: time to research, to see what was right. Time to research similar suitable materials, time to plan, form and fabricate. Time to install. And usually, time to take it out and re-do it because it wasn't quite right.

My car is elaborately overdone. Like only one other one I know about. Like somebody cared.

At some point, we'll see if anyone else does.

And then, whether they do or not, I will set it free. Buddha said, "the root of suffering is attachment."

 

 

While I hope upon hope that you sell for $40K, the market for Spyders is still $25-35K used. You are taking an already small market and making it smaller. Clearly, this could work to your favor and if you have patience, you could wait out the money you want.

Next year may actually be better if the economy levels out. 

If it were me, I would plaster it over a brunch of free sites at $45K, ahead of BaT. If someone offers you $45, awesome. If you get offers you don't want to accept, don't but it would give you an idea of price by averaging offers. 

 

Just my 2 pennies.

There's someone out there who will understand what you've done, Ed.

Ed, it may take a while but your story will have to be told on how it was built.  

I also think a pre tour of selling would be in order as you will need to hone your skills in selling this thing and the search for the right buyer might be right around the corner or maybe around next year but it will come with patience.  

Also the cost of the roulette with this custom built is for me a BAT discourager for the 1st time the car is being offered. 

It may not get to the price of a BECK or Vintage but then, the exclusiveness and uniqueness of your build will be for the buyer to judge. 

In the end it will be worth what the cheque is cut for  

 

I followed a guy building a wooden boat on YouTube for three years.  The guy was the most meticulous person I think I’ve ever seen, ending every video by updating his material costs and time spent.  The boat turned out beautiful and I don’t think I disagreed with hardly anything he did.  He has no plans to sell but if he did, an “expert” would say it’s not worth as much as a vintage Chris Craft and, of course, worth a fraction of his time input.  Having watched it being built I and probably others would pay Chris Craft money for it.  So, you build things for the enjoyment and completion of the process and get what someone is willing to pay for the decisions, precision and quality you put in.  This is a great car Ed.

Thanks for the input, guys. Cards on the table, no bluffing. 

We went for like a 3-4 mile spin this afternoon and the car is doing pretty well. What a thrill to even just tool around in this beast!

Brake pedal is still low but I can lock them up. Possibly the left front locked first. Haven't gone fast enough to really test and bed the pads yet.

Brake line adaptor fittings are on the way. I also cured the brake line rub in the left rear fender well and touched up the paint there and installed the edge guards. 

Ride height seems set and I'm learning how to get in and out of the driveway without dragging the tail. 

Clutch chatters just a little on low RPM takeoff. Dammit!

Looks like the temp gauge is working. 80c (just under 180F) and steady. Obviously I need a longer, faster run on a hotter day to see better.

Warm idle was too low and wanted to stall. I turned the stop screws in a quarter turn on each side and we got 900 steady. 

Had a fuel drip from the accelerator pump on the left after I parked it. The cover screws were tight so I was going to look in there and see what's happening. I loosened the screws, then changed my mind. Tightened them, started the car to see if it leaked running, and it didn't.

So I let it idle a bit (this is when I upped the idle settings) and checked again, then turned it off and felt around where it had been dripping. And this time it was dry.

Also no oil drips from underneath. So maybe I won't be needing those JayCee pushrods after all. Fingers crossed.

I'm going to try to get the headlights aimed tonight.

I'll look for oil under the engine as well and try to pinpoint any drips. I am very sure my CB sump cover is not right, so that will come off and probably got back on with Permatex Ultra Grey at some point soon, with possibly one of the studs replaced. 

Bottom line: Just as soon as I can get the dang brake pedal up to a decent height I am going to absolutely thrash this baby. 

Ride height seems set and I'm learning how to get in and out of the driveway without dragging the tail. 

OK, but how about getting in and out of the car without dragging tail?

Not exactly like an MG, is it?

Greg fixed it on his later cars, but I'm going to assume your TR headlight buckets are similar to my earlier car.

I had to bend the tabs on the headlight bulb, and remove the wires from the 3 prong headlight plug in order to aim the headlights. At least if you wanted to light the highway instead of the trees!

You could cut out the back of the bucket alternatively, our headlights are inside the trunk instead of out there by the tires on a Speedster.

I also had to bend the springs that push the bulb assembly away from the adjustment screws. My screws were WAY out near the end of adjustment. Spyders have the buckets laid back at more of an angle than Bugs do.

So I put the car up in the air and checked under the engine and—how about that?—no pushrod tube leaks and the drip from the front appears to be cured as well. Only the left valve cover was just a smidge wet (I'll pick up a new set of bails) and the sump plate is definitely seeping. No drips, but they will come. So that gets R&R'd soon.

I'm going to run this a few more miles and set the air/fuel mix and rig up the Black Box, but if things stay as they are I'll just leave everything but the sump as-is. Psyched.

Tonight I got the headlights rough-aimed. I think they might be OK so I don't need to pull them out and mess with the adjusters and such. We'll see.

Then I shook off the top for a test fit.

I'm confident that with some time and probably a few parts from @chines1 & co. this could be made to work, but frankly I don't have the patience. I'm going to fold it all up and call it and the glass windscreen a "standard toption" & let the next guy sort it out.

 

 

 

Like Danny says, they lay back more than in the Speedster. I ended up moving the pivot point on the light ring/bucket attachment.

https://www.speedsterowners.com/topic/headlights-6

I have more pictures if it'll help.

Did another lap around the block this a.m. & this time tested the GoPro.

 

(edit to replace above with higher res version).

I can't live with the brakes as they are so I put it up and pulled the floor off. I'm going to yank the MC and bench bleed it and put it back and see if that does anything. I tried to make Gordo's power bleeder last week but that failed, so I'll try again. There's definitely air in it. I think when I get that out I won't need the residual valves. We'll see.

While I was at it I pulled the wipers and the 356 screen and put the plastic one back in. Getting that mirror to not interfere with the windshield took some fabrication.

I really like the look, impractical though it may be.

@edsnova posted:

 

I really like the look, impractical though it may be.

No, that look is worth whatever it takes to get there. It's fantastic.

I've been very very tempted to do that to my car. That's the cherry on top.

Hey Ed. Would you mind taking a pic of the screen, mirror minus the glare? Maybe a top view, too?  I'm getting ready to ditch my Speedster windshield fir the lexan one as well and I'd like to take a look at the spacing. 

What did you do with your center support hole?

Thanks for taking us along for the ride, Ed. What a thing of beauty!

@Carlos G posted:

I've been very very tempted to do that to my car. That's the cherry on top.

I'll tell you this: "Project X" is crying for such a thing.

Astounding.

I can only imagine what a thrill it must be to be driving something you’ve worked so long and hard to build.   Congrats 

 

@dlearl476 posted:

Hey Ed. Would you mind taking a pic of the screen, mirror minus the glare? Maybe a top view, too?  I'm getting ready to ditch my Speedster windshield fir the lexan one as well and I'd like to take a look at the spacing. 

What did you do with your center support hole?

Center hole is just a hole. If you look at pics of the real cars, they usually have several unfilled former attachment points and such. I suppose I could stick a rivet in it.

The Fibersteel plastic screen is made to lay over and cover the mounting holes from the glass Speedster screen, so there's your fitment. You can just see a couple riv-nut edges peeking out from under the leather gasket on the right of this pic.

The tricky bits are the mirror and tonneau snaps. I just drilled a hole where I thought the mirror would look and work well, and then found the mirror that came with the plexi screen was a tad too tall, when stood upright as intended. It may be possible to just machine more threads up the stem to sink it; I opted to grind the top retaining nut at like a 15-degree angle and make a matching angled collet for underneath. 

The one Tenax stud I had installed, using the tonneau itself as a guide before any windscreen was attached, had to be relocated about an inch rearward in order to get enough headroom for the snaps to function (you can see that hole too). I also had to have the tonneau altered likewise. 

DM'd additional pics.

Lovely, and sounds good, too.

Fantastic, Ed.  Can't say much more than that.

Fast loud and proud , how cool for you ….well done !

 

Amazing job!!!

So I pulled the master cylinder and ordered a different model, having been schooled by @chines1 that the one I had in there, recommended by the PO with the universal endorsement of writing "USE THIS" in sharpie on it, is inadequate to the task of actuating four-wheel disc brakes. It was designed for front disc brakes and rear drums, as indicated by the single "D" on the end of its part number. The new one's bore will be 20.6 mm's in diameter, as indicated by two letter D's at the end of its part number. 

I am advised that this will or should obviate the need for the 2-lb residual pressure valves and the unobtaniam brake line adaptors I have ordered but have no confidence in their being the actual ones I would need for this job. 

Thoughts and prayers for me? Can I get an "amen?" 

While awaiting these possible final keys to Full Spyder Viability I've set my attention on creating a valid and functional flat towing system for the car.

As many Spyder owners have discovered, the standard VW flat towing device can work, but it's a bear to get it fixed to the beam, which is so far under the car and then unreachably up in the body work. 

On my car there is also an aluminum sheet screwed in under it, blocking access. 

But since I extended the frame forward to render the jack points functional, and since I also installed 7/16 bolts through these extensions from the bottom of the floorpan, I have the built-in makings of a potential towing system. 

All that's required is a sort of bracket or frame to extend from those bolts, past the jack points, to a spot under the grill. From there a simple horizontal pivot to the tow bar.

CAD:

It seems appropriate that the 1x2 box tubing I'm making this out of came from the same treadmill I fabricated the frame extenders from.

Holes for those big bolts....

Then measure again and relieve for the jack points.

Tomorrow I'll grind these holes out and locate these tubes in the box tubing so it fits over the jack points snugly. 

After that it's tack, test-fit, maybe tack again. 

Then I'll get some pins to fit through the fronts of these guys and gusset all that & tack it together. 

And after that I cut the ends of a regular VW tow bar and make box ends to fit over the ends of these brackets and slide the pins through.

Ed, you suffer from the curse of spare time ☺️

So THAT's where my drill press vise went!  I've been looking all over for that!

It's good to see you coming up with a continuum of projects during this Covid thing.  

@edsnova posted:

Center hole is just a hole. If you look at pics of the real cars, they usually have several unfilled former attachment points and such. I suppose I could stick a rivet in it.

The Fibersteel plastic screen is made to lay over and cover the mounting holes from the glass Speedster screen, so there's your fitment. You can just see a couple riv-nut edges peeking out from under the leather gasket on the right of this pic.

The tricky bits are the mirror and tonneau snaps. I just drilled a hole where I thought the mirror would look and work well, and then found the mirror that came with the plexi screen was a tad too tall, when stood upright as intended. It may be possible to just machine more threads up the stem to sink it; I opted to grind the top retaining nut at like a 15-degree angle and make a matching angled collet for underneath. 

The one Tenax stud I had installed, using the tonneau itself as a guide before any windscreen was attached, had to be relocated about an inch rearward in order to get enough headroom for the snaps to function (you can see that hole too). I also had to have the tonneau altered likewise. 

DM'd additional pics.

Thanks Ed. Took a brief look at your post, but I’ll take time to digest it later. I’m on my way down to change screens myself. Like yours, I have both sets of holes. My car had the lexan screen on it when I bought it and I had Carey et al put the Speedster screen on in preparation for my drive to NYC. 

But, like Carey warned me, the header is right in my line of sight. Now that I’m driving the car a lot, it really bugs me. I find myself slouching down in the seat to see under it which inevitable starts hurting my back. 

I’ll get to the mirror later. Checking the dimensions of that Cobra mirror someone suggested, it may be too tall. But I found one on Moss motors for a TD or TR-3 with a shorter stalk that might be perfect, as long as the angle will clear the clamshell. 

 

FYI, here's another source for vintage-style interior mirrors.

No experience with these, but they look promising.

 

Update: Finished drilling the big holes in the top to allow the jack points to dip into them, then fit them up with thick walled tubing to surround and capture the jack points and measured for square. I got them to within about a 16th of an inch and marked with tape to locate the tubing, then tacked and checked again.

Finding them still good I welded them around, and put beads on the cuts I'd made earlier to conform the part to the bend of the car's underside.  

Trying to decide now whether to ties these brackets together with a piece of big (but thinner) rectangular box tubing to prevent lateral stress on the jack points. It would seem overkill and make it very much harder to install these parts in the field, but still I ponder.

The next step is getting a squared box on the ends of these, with the through holes level and square to each other on the same plane, since on installation these bars each tilted in slightly (see top pic), making use of the existing holes problematic.

I'll probably get after that tomorrow or Sunday.

 

You might as well finish it.  You don’t want to go to the beach this weekend, anyway.

I can see again!

Got a few holes to patch, but I’ll do that in school this fall when I have access to the body shop again. 
Glad I didn’t order a mirror yet. Even the $10 one. It’s tight in there. 

You are are a fabrication god, Ed. Your updates and photos are a breath of fresh air in the dumpster fire we call 2020. Can't get enough, thanks!

@Sacto Mitch posted:

 

FYI, here's another source for vintage-style interior mirrors.

No experience with these, but they look promising.

 

Thanks, Mitch. Those first two look promising.  Yesterday during my intitial drive I was thinking I may have to adapt an adhesive windshield mount to invert and stick on the dash. 

I may be looking at custom motorcycle mirrors, too. I was so beat yesterday after doing the screen and messing with a missing swing arm cap bolt, I neglected to measure how much room I even have in there. 

@El Frazoo posted:

After 40+ pages here, I'm betting this has been hashed out previous, BUT . . .

If it was me and I put so much blood sweat and tears into something so remarkably deft, I really don't know how I could part with it.  But that remains the plan, correct??

I could never figure out why there were so many Spyders for sale with 200-1,000 miles on them on BAT. Granted, ingress and egress are a combination of yoga postures, but still. Had I not driven small cars all my life I think the size could be intimidating, too, and I assumed it was people who bought a Spyder then didn't really like them.

After reading the threads here it dawned on me: for some, the fascination is the building of the cars, not the owning/driving. I can see that. I look at my Beck like a 1:1 scale model I can tinker with. (And drive)

I also think that it takes a different kind of guy to own and drive one. I would imagine lots of guys get into one thinking it'll be a car - then buy it and figure out it's a very expensive and labor intensive motorcycle with 4 wheels. It rewards those who are not over 5'9" or so, and a buck-sixty at the outside. Corn-fed, white-bread primates need not apply.

Not everybody is cut out for that.

@edsnova Moving the pivot points out for the tow bar is a very good move on these low cars. I was going to play around with a spring loaded tow bar. My jack/tow points, are right about where your bolts are. With all the ups and downs around here, a typical tow bar would hit the body of my car.

Is the only attachment on those pieces the 5/16 bolts? Looks like the jack points just sit in that cup you made. I figured if you made something like this.

Those brackets could be slid onto the jack point, then bolted like you have them. They would have two attachment points. I was just thinking, if someone or something were to add pressure downward on the front of those brackets, they'd bend.

Just thinking out loud.

Carry on, bro.

CG

Dang. 
been wracking my noggin trying to figure this. At first I thought a horizontal hole and pin through the tubes and jack points but drilling those accurately now would be super difficult.

Thought about tapping a hole in the bottom of the jack points for a smaller screw to augment things. Still seems bodgy.

But you nailed it: a key hole with the roundy part at the front, the slot just wide enough to slide above the ball of the jack point. You slot these on and then feed the bolts up and tighten. If the bolt ever backs out or breaks the part stays locked on as long as you pull. 

The only problem: the plane of the tops of these brackets want to pass directly through the balls. Raising them up 3/8ths to make the key slots work might be more than I can achieve using my rudimentary tools and skills...

Yours is definitely the optimal design though. Thanks, Carlos.

 

Holy crap I just looked at your post again and yeah you frickin solved it.

i will adapt my design!

Here's a step further, to lock it in. The washer is welded to the little plate to help center the knob. Maybe the slotted hole can be made to help lock it in too.

Hopefully you can make sense of this quicky drawing.

BTW none of these drawings are to scale.

This is why I chose not to build my car. The artist and engineer in my head would want to reinvent EVERYTHING, and it'd never get done. YOU are the man for doing what you did to get yours done.

Super helpful. Thanks again, Carlos.

So I went out and started looking at the situation, pondering, drilling and cutting.

The fundamental differences between your drawings and what we're confronting are two:

First, the tube I set over the jack points in only slightly larger than they are. There's only maybe 1/8" all around. I wanted them snug but not too snug so I could maybe put a cutting of heater hose over them to keep the chafing down.

Second, the angle of all this is tight and so it the up/down clearance. The top of the main box tube would bisect the little ball on the bottom of the jack point. So the "slot" would have to extend down onto that.

Having said that, I think it will actually work.

I took an hour and made the slotted "caps" and fit them to the jack points.

Since it looks like it will be possible to angle the brackets up from behind, the way forward now is to remake them in cardboard and fiddle with the height of the round tubing until it's just even with the thin part of the jackpoint when the part is installed.

Those tubes are going to only be about 3/4" off the deck when this is done, but they may need to have a rake front to back. 

Once the heights are right I'll fix the slotted washers to them, test fit it a few times, then weld and grind it all down neat. 

When the washers are collared on the jack points they can't move up or down, so the clamping part will not be necessary.

Cool!

Just slap the end of that knob with some grease before a tow and away you go.

Carlos G.......Fantastic solution !!  Guess I'll get front jack points installed !.......Bruce

Bruce, the frame tubes must be extended in order to do this. Ed extended his.....

Thanks Danny....Yup, I saw that.  When I see what my front frame is looking like maybe it will be possible to build in some sort of mount for a set of the jack point ball-studs. OR, if that's not feasible, maybe some sort of sub-frame that inserts thru those two air vents that direct air to the brakes. The tow bar would connect to that and allow a much higher position of the tow bar.

I really like Carlos' ball socket design though. It sure eliminates a lot of the difficulty of maneuvering the whole  "weighty" mechanism into position with only one arm access !

Bruce

"I really like Carlos' ball socket design though. It sure eliminates a lot of the difficulty of maneuvering the whole "weighty" mechanism into position with only one arm access"

@aircooled

@Carlos G idea/design is brilliant! With regard to maneuvering a weighty mechanism into place, here is how I maneuver my tow bar for attachment to my lowered Speedster.

Use two blocks of 2"x4" positioned to function as a fulcrum so that weight of front of tow bar raises rear portion up onto the torsion tubes. This enables me to simply reach in with one arm to insert pins (rear to front).

@MusbJim  I have a stack of different sized pieces of wood that I use for all kinds of different jobs. It's like my own adult Lincoln log set. Use more brain, less muscle.

@aircooled Ed's front jack points are more period correct for the 550. If your starting from scratch, you can do whatever you want.

Since my car was already built, I had to go another direction with my jack/tow points. Mine are farther under, but now seeing what Ed did, it's given me an idea to move them out some so that installing a tow bar would be more realistic. Currently my jack/tow points have just 3.25" clearance to the ground. Here is a link to what I did. https://www.speedsterowners.co...nt-spyder-tow-points  I haven't built a tow bar yet.

I am thinking that tie-rod knuckles have a  hardened concave disc in them that might be removed and re-purposed as part of this assembly. Also might the outside tube that the keyhole is cut into need only be large enough to receive the jack point ball, thus taking some of the lateral thrust while in tow or when breaking ?...........Bruce

@Stan Galat posted:

I also think that it takes a different kind of guy to own and drive one. I would imagine lots of guys get into one thinking it'll be a car - then buy it and figure out it's a very expensive and labor intensive motorcycle with 4 wheels. It rewards those who are not over 5'9" or so, and a buck-sixty at the outside. Corn-fed, white-bread primates need not apply.

Not everybody is cut out for that.

LOL. True Stan. But I'm pushing the envelope. 6'2", 275# here and I love my Spyder. As I explain to the curious: It's more like "putting it on" than getting in it, like a pair of gloves.  But once I'm in, it fits like a glove, too. 

So do tell, how do you pull it off ... I mean the suit. It reminds me of the time I sat in a Honda 2000 roadster I got semi stuck and had to pull myself out on all fours. 

Update: done, mostly.

The drilling and grinding was most of the time spent. A milling machine would've sped things up quite a bit.

Also working out how to re-shape the bolt ends to shim them to the body so they're level. This shouldn't be to hard to do with a piece of scrap and maybe a hammer.

The tricky part was cutting the tubing to the proper height, even on both sides, so the ends will jut out at the same angle and height. On the second one I cut too much near the back.

Here it is tacked for final fitting.

And welded and filled...

Installed. Still need to add some material on the low outside ends to make them come level. But I do think this will work.

Lookin good Ed ! When I see you struggle to hand shape those slots I really appreciate my little Clausing mill in spite of all it’s short comings. I don’t need it most of the time but when I do it’s a Godsend ! If you work with metal, you really need, a drill press, a lathe, and a mill. In that order too. Of course a grinder and welder ! The excellent info disseminated on this site truly amazes me all the time ! .............Bruce

Nice, Ed. Maybe you'll get a mill in time to build your next Spyder. 

@IaM-Ray posted:

So do tell, how do you pull it off ... I mean the suit. It reminds me of the time I sat in a Honda 2000 roadster I got semi stuck and had to pull myself out on all fours. 

Ingress: Open door, left foot on floor outboard of frame rail, right foot on seat, hands on rear bulkhead, slide down into seat. 

Egress: Hands on seat bolsters, push up to get left foot on middle bulkhead, push up, stand on seat, step over door. (I found the door is kind of useless for getting out. It's easier just to step over it.)

And it occurs to me that the better mod here would have been just to grind a horizontal slot in the front of the tube (or maybe the outside edge) right above where the ball would end, and rig it up for a stout bolt or pin to pass through there similarly to how the steering shaft is fixed to the coupler. 

Would've been tricky but no moreso than what I did and probably faster AND would lock the thing in against any deceleration stress. 

Dang.

I don't step on my seat unless I'm barefoot. Left foot next to frame rail, right hand on top of seat, left hand on steering wheel(not possible for banjo wheel guys). You do a rotate/pirouette thing and slide the right foot towards the gas pedal. Left hand on door sill, pick up left foot and head towards the clutch, and drop yourself in.

Getting out is the reverse, open door, push/pick your butt off the seat with left hand on sill and right hand on the back of the seat, put left foot just rear of bulkhead, and push up, rotating right foot out and onto the ground.

Getting in and out with the top in place is MUCH more difficult, and better off attempted sober.......

Update: new master cylinder came today.

The all-important double-D suffix:

Relieving the edges of the flange*:

Bench bleeding:

Installing this is much trickier than it ought to be, because of choices I made.* Much swearing is involved:

*I grind the flanges to make room for the nuts that hold in the pedal cage, because dumbass me did not realize—and didn't think to ask if—you could simply clock the master cylinder 90 degrees to align with the holes in the common cast aluminum pedal frames you see everywhere. Instead, I used the stock horizontal holes Thunder Ranch bored in the front firewall to mount the MC, and then drilled new vertical holes for the pedal, which would work fine and not be a big deal if the pedal frame did not both block access to the MC bolts put through the horizontal holes and not fit unless installed first. This means that R&Ring the MC involves an intricate three-handed juggling act in which one first installs the MC loosely with its bolts, then installs the pedal assembly by wedging/sliding it under the washers on said bolts, then starts the bolts and nuts holding the pedal assembly in place, then tightens the bolts holding the MC using a stubby 13mm wrench to them one flat at a time, then tightens the pedal bolts, then loosens the MC bolts and the pedal bolts in order to nudge the pedal into its most central location, then re-tightens the MC bolts one goddamn flat at a time, then snugs up the pedal bolts, and then finally grabs a hickory rolling pin and clops oneself in the base of the skull because MY GOD! WTF am I doing with my life??

 

Yeah, I "clocked" mine, but honestly it was still a rubrics cube to get together. The bad news is that the brake light switch ended up flush with the pan and I bottomed out on a curb just right causing it to leak.  Thank goodness I now had two brake circuits.  I'm replacing the fiberglass pan with a 1/8" aluminum plate  

Pro tip: be careful not to bung up the threads on the bolts so you can finger tighten them almost all the way. 

I feel the pain of one flat at a time tightening........

I'm so lucky Greg clocked mine 90 degrees CCW, so that the feed hoses come in from the passenger side and the pressure switches face upward toward the driver's side.

FYI, everybody likes "double d's" LOL!

"FYI, everybody likes "double d's" LOL!"

Look everybody, we got ourselves a comedian! 

Where's Vince when we need him...

vince would say

" What's lacking in chest is made up with zest "

Simmer down you guys.

Hey Ed, how did you make out with the MC/bleeding?

I just got the sandrail(customer car) back and finished the brakes today. I had replaced the MC and wheel cylinders a few weeks ago. Wilwood 3/4"(19mm) single action MC, 4 stock wheel cylinders on wide5 drums. Also new drums in the back and cut the front. New shoes all around. It also featured a turn/cutting brake. Could not get a good pedal after a quart of fluid passed through it and bubble-free. Second pump was great, but the first pump almost went to the floor.

Installed a Wilwood 10 pound residual valve today, and got much improvement. But it was still a bit of a low pedal. Removed the turn brake assembly and replaced it with a brass brake Tee. 10 minutes later, all air was gone and finally had a nice high and hard pedal!

The CNC turn brake had seen better days methinks. I followed their bleeding instructions too, but it just wouldn't allow the air to escape. Oh well, he doesn't off-road anyway. So why does he need it?

Anyway, the residual valve does help with drums AND a MC lower than the wheel cylinders, for anyone's future reference.

Just got the bleeds done with Karen and we've got a nice high and firm pedal. Very psyched to put it back together and do a test drive tomorrow am before it gets too hot.

I was putting the front wheels back on when I noticed [Caution: Joe Pesci "Goodfellas" language]

The upper trailing arm is floppy. I loosened the set screw but I t seems it was set. Maybe the bearing disintegrated?

Anyway. 2020's been excellent so far.

Good job on the brakes and good luck on the trailing arm. Oy vey.

Is the front wheel hub nut tight? Seems like a lot of play for even the most disintegrated ball joint.

Are you sure that's not in the hub, @edsnova? It could be a matter as simple as your wheel bearing seats "bedding in" after your around the block drives.

The movement is not in the wheel bearing or the ball joint. It’s in the crux of the trailing arm.

Greg drills and taps a hole for a bolt in the beam. This bolt prevents the inner bushing from sliding in too far. If the inner torsion bar bushing slid in too far, you'll have that kind of massive play.

It sucks Ed, but I'd separate the ball joints from the spindle and get in there.

The good news is the upper ball joint will usually come out with the camber adjuster attached with no effort, just remove the nylock nut from under the spindle.

P.S.: Language is TOTALLY understandable!

Bonus points for using the word "crux".

Actually you were quite restrained, Ed.  I'd have been throwing stuff.

Yep, @DannyP, that's the plan after breakfast. 

Sorting this car reminds me of some of my experiences as a long-form journalist. I'd dive deep into a subject and come back, months later, with a 6,000 or 8,000 word draft that looked brilliant. Editor would agree and do some light trimming on it, and I'd read that and polish up a few more bits and send it back and then a day or two later I'd get called into the office and the editor would say something like "this is all great stuff, you know, but re-reading it I don't really understand what we're saying in this second section, and when this guy says this thing, I'm left with this question that we never address, and—"

—I'd have to re-report half the story and then rewrite the entire thing.

It helps to keep in mind that this process has never made the less true.

fwiw I never pulled the beam apart, since it came to me as a roller. I just shot some grease into the zerks at some point during my first few months of ownership. I did make sure all the nuts on the steering knuckles and ball joints were tight, and of course I pulled out, inspected and greased the wheel bearings before putting them back in and tightening it all down to spec. 

Until last night all seemed well. I'd like to think I'd have felt it if the wheel could move this much off plumb during my run round the block two weeks ago. It felt pretty tight in the S-turns.

I'll post again after I get in there and see WTF is what.

Finally got out there an hour ago. The bearing is good. The bushing is gone.

Gonna order both; pondering whether to do the whole set. 

My beam: Nice and greasy. Needle bearing striations. I took a piece of tubing and felt in for the "step" about 5 inches in the tube. Nope.

To double check I pulled Bridget's old beam out of the inky shadows in the corner of the shop and performed the same test. Yep:

I suppose the real scam way might be to fashion a hook and try to fish the original back into place...?

My tendency is to just get the one new bushing and bearing, install, maybe add a set screw to each corner and move along.

Delrin & etc. would seem overkill.

Any expert advice appreciated.

Welp... I dragged the inside of the beam multiple times with several hooks, including the windshield center rod I'd just removed. No sign of the inside bushing. It was very easy to feel on the old beam, so not sure what happened.

Maybe they just forgot to install it? Maybe the control arm seemed fine and stable until I put stress on it by actually driving the car?

Seems far fetched. But I know I shook that wheel hard several times in the past three years, particularly after setting the wheel bearing lash. It never moved. 

Anyway finding no inner bushing, I dug around the shop for some implements of reconstruction to pull out the needle bearing. 

Started with this lag bolt that came out of the deck 10 years ago. A little grinding on one side and it could just slide in against the spring pack and get the round part of the head behind the bearing.

By pulling it against this bit of tubing that was used to crate the lift, I could start to walk the bearing out, a little on the right of the spring pack, then a little on the left...

A few minutes later it was at the lip, and I was pulling it against the tube. I needed a bigger bit of tube.

Luckily I saved the leftover stuff I used to extend the frame rails.

This piece is just a little bigger than the top tube of the beam. Perfect. But now I needed a bit of flat stock to fill the space and give the smaller tube something to push against...

A few minutes later and

Ordering the new bearing and bushing now. 

Can you believe how much fun this hobby is? I honestly have no idea why everyone on Planet Earth isn't into this ****.

 

 

I've never had to deal with this, Ed. Good job pulling it apart. Greg could help you with placement of bolts to fix the inner bushing into place.

 

Everything in life happens for a reason that is often not apparent at the time.

If you hadn't been working on your deck ten years ago, you never would have solved this.

If this had been me, though, the lag bolt would have been behind three cans of paint and I never would have found it.

 

You know, Ed, this would all be much more fun if you were going to keep the car. Right now it must feel like you're solving all of these pesky problems for someone else. Aargh! However, brilliant work as usual.

I guess that is how Carey, Alan, and Greg feel with each build.  

Got my new outer bearing and inner bushings today. The bushing seems to fit the trailing arm well. But...there is apparently a bushing carrier that's supposed to go in with it (or already be in there) which is not there. 

And so it goes.

Had a tile order a few days ago porcelain and wrong ones sent, I got a second wrong ones sent... it happens.

You should see the parts I've got on the shelf because I thought I needed it and didn't understand the problem.

I've not seen any indication that these bushing carriers exist outside of old VW beams. I happen to have a spare. No idea if it's possible to remove one without destroying though...

My machinist buddy has pledged help. May end up turning something in aluminum.

I'm not mad so much as disappointed.

 

No, if you have the very old brass inner bushing it requires the also very old bakelite bushing carrier.  The Micarta inner bushings are a direct replacement for both inner bushings and carriers and don't have their own carrier, they insert into the beam raw dog.

That said, I got SO TIRED of dealing with he aftermarket JUNK quality of the inner micartas blowing apart, our cars with front beams now feature Airkewld beams with Delrin inserts replacing the bearing and Micarta.  Cost me 3x as much to build a front beam, but  ride quality is greatly improved and Im going on year 4 without a single replacement bushing required...

I replaced my Micarta bushings (1969 beam) with Urethane back around 2007 or so and have had zero problems since.

Thanks, @chines1 for the useful lesson.

So now it appears what maybe happened is the Bakelite disintegrated—or the Micarta replacements did. 

Presumably I've got the same in all four corners which means I'm back to the Delrin stuff if I don't want to use the sand rail solution (Sorry, @Gordon Nichols, I don't. I actually bought and then, after reading up on them, gave away a set of those urethane sleeves years ago.)

It would have been really helpful for Cip1 to include a note on the page with those inner bushings, to the effect of, "Caution, you must use the correct bushing carriers for these, NLA." 

I love to waste $80 plus two weeks.

 

Courage, Ed.

Some day, you'll look back philosophically on all of this and think it was a pain in the ass.

 

Some day?

@chines1 posted:

No, if you have the very old brass inner bushing it requires the also very old bakelite bushing carrier.  The Micarta inner bushings are a direct replacement for both inner bushings and carriers and don't have their own carrier, they insert into the beam raw dog.

That said, I got SO TIRED of dealing with he aftermarket JUNK quality of the inner micartas blowing apart, our cars with front beams now feature Airkewld beams with Delrin inserts replacing the bearing and Micarta.  Cost me 3x as much to build a front beam, but  ride quality is greatly improved and Im going on year 4 without a single replacement bushing required...

Way to go Carrey, that is so helpful to so many I am sure. 

I have nothing useful, or even philosophical to add, other than to say I'm really sorry, man. 

Experience is the teacher who always gives the lesson after you've already failed the test. Nobody should have to go through this sort of thing, but anybody who does anything does. You are a doer. As such, you get smacked down, get up, dust off, and get smacked down again. Such is the lot of the builder of things.

You sir, are the man. 

Discussed matters with my buddy who has been a machinist for 30 years and builds Bugs and stuff in his spare time. He's never had a VW beam "this far apart." He offered to turn me up a carrier out of aluminum. I told him what Carey said, above, and we thought about what the other three corners of the beam held in store. All agree the best option is to R&R all the bushings and bearings in the beam with white Delrin. Ordered same.

I'll see if Cip1 will take back the unused bronze bushings and the one bearing I bought. 

What Stan said. You've just got to carry on and fix it. It's what guys with "the affliction" do.

 You've just got to carry on and fix it. It's what guys with "the affliction" do...........     "Ain't" that the gospel truth, that's how we get so many new parts for future use.

'Cause you never know when you're going to need a ......

...37mm reamer. One will be needed to do this job; they appear to retail for about $200 to $800. Insert crude joke wherever I’m already bleeding from...

Wouldn't it be nice to find out that Harbor Freight has one with a coupon or that you could rent one from Advance Auto for a day. Sigh. I guess you could rent it out to the VW community. Maybe a post to thesamba or shoptalkforums to see if anybody wants to help?

Borrowed the reamer from a neighbor. (I love my neighborhood).

Pacific Customs shipping the bushings UPS with expected delivery Tuesday. Cip1 sent a return code so I can ship back the unopened parts. 

Now it's down to taking the beam apart and cleaning out the grease. 

What a neighborhood! It's always nice to find another unindicted co-conspirator.

What the actual heck?

I wanna' know what kind of neighbors have weird VW specific tools in their stash?  I'd have a better chance of striking oil in my tomato patch while tilling it up next spring than I would have trying to find a VW beam reaming tool in a neighbor's garage.

I think you're making this stuff up now.

 

Stan, that's just life in our cosmopolitan urban centers of culture.

Need a pinion gear for your Isotta Fraschini?

Someone on the block is sure to have one.

 

@edsnova posted:

Borrowed the reamer from a neighbor. (I love my neighborhood).

Pacific Customs shipping the bushings UPS with expected delivery Tuesday. Cip1 sent a return code so I can ship back the unopened parts. 

Now it's down to taking the beam apart and cleaning out the grease. 

That's great news. Would love to see a DIY write up on that process. 

That's uber-cool! That thing looks adjustable. Is it?

It adjusts from a little smaller than 36mm to 38mm so that should be right. @dlearl476 I plan to write up the beam job on my blog.

@Stan Galat you'd fit right in this neighborhood. Retired GM forewoman and cable lineman next door on one side, truck driver the other. There's a plumber and two HVAC guys just up the street, three welders, two cops, several retired Bethlehem Steel workers...

We've got a Ham radio guy. Many, many boats.

There were two solid 10-second drag cars parked in driveways when I moved here, plus a big block Chevelle, a tribute Yenko Nova, and some other stuff I forget. One of the drag cars is gone now, and the guy sold the Nova (but still has the Chevelle). This is just stuff you see outside of garages. Also car trailers, two scrappers (Sandy and a guy whose name I don't know).

The guy who lent the reamer, Johnny, runs a diesel engine repair and machine shop in S. Baltimore. I believe he specializes in "glider" jobs. He flew into Carlisle last year in his little Cessna and met up with his step son, who drove his dune buggy up. Some of you might have met them though they were only on the field for a little while.

Johnny's good people, despite his enthusiasm for our current POTUS. He and his wife (just married, though you'd never have guessed they weren't married even 10 years ago), spent their honeymoon near and on Mt. Rushmore so they could attend the rally.

I first asked my machinist buddy (actually lives up county) about the reamer and he said his biggest one was under an inch, but found me a good option at $67 plus shipping. I texted Johnny and he got right back to me like "dang, I got every one but that one, mechanic says he took it home."

Then he texted back again 10 minutes later: "found it."

I told him no rush, parts just ordered from the west coast. An hour later he pulls up to his driveway as I'm walking by with the dog, gets out and gives me the box.

This is the same guy who, last spring, after I buggered up my first attempt at replacing Bridget's blown head gaskets, offered to deck the whole engine when I told him my regular machine shop said they couldn't do it without me taking the whole thing down to bare block. 

He backed his truck up my driveway the next morning, helped me load the Suby on the tail gate, and came back the next afternoon to unload it. 

I honestly hope like hell I can do him a favor some day. 

Best description of the America I love that I've read in months. Thanks for sharing, Ed.

No HOA. That’s the key to freedom.

@edsnova posted:

No HOA. That’s the key to freedom.

No kidding! Besides my automotive pursuits, I'm a ham, so the last thing I need is nosy neighbors with nothing better to do complaining about my antennae. Or the unusual things parked in my driveway.   

@edsnova posted:

It adjusts from a little smaller than 36mm to 38mm so that should be right. @dlearl476 I plan to write up the beam job on my blog.

@Stan Galat you'd fit right in this neighborhood. Retired GM forewoman and cable lineman next door on one side, truck driver the other. There's a plumber and two HVAC guys just up the street, three welders, two cops, several retired Bethlehem Steel workers...

We've got a Ham radio guy. Many, many boats.

There were two solid 10-second drag cars parked in driveways when I moved here, plus a big block Chevelle, a tribute Yenko Nova, and some other stuff I forget. One of the drag cars is gone now, and the guy sold the Nova (but still has the Chevelle). This is just stuff you see outside of garages. Also car trailers, two scrappers (Sandy and a guy whose name I don't know).

The guy who lent the reamer, Johnny, runs a diesel engine repair and machine shop in S. Baltimore. I believe he specializes in "glider" jobs. He flew into Carlisle last year in his little Cessna and met up with his step son, who drove his dune buggy up. Some of you might have met them though they were only on the field for a little while.

Johnny's good people, despite his enthusiasm for our current POTUS. He and his wife (just married, though you'd never have guessed they weren't married even 10 years ago), spent their honeymoon near and on Mt. Rushmore so they could attend the rally.

I first asked my machinist buddy (actually lives up county) about the reamer and he said his biggest one was under an inch, but found me a good option at $67 plus shipping. I texted Johnny and he got right back to me like "dang, I got every one but that one, mechanic says he took it home."

Then he texted back again 10 minutes later: "found it."

I told him no rush, parts just ordered from the west coast. An hour later he pulls up to his driveway as I'm walking by with the dog, gets out and gives me the box.

This is the same guy who, last spring, after I buggered up my first attempt at replacing Bridget's blown head gaskets, offered to deck the whole engine when I told him my regular machine shop said they couldn't do it without me taking the whole thing down to bare block. 

He backed his truck up my driveway the next morning, helped me load the Suby on the tail gate, and came back the next afternoon to unload it. 

I honestly hope like hell I can do him a favor some day. 

Gift cards in the mail are always good.

Trailered the Speedster to the coast last year. The AirBnB we like to stay at is in the middle of a 100 acre working vineyard for a winery named Castoro Cellars. Plenty of room to park my truck and trailer while we drive all over in the Speedster. On our last day while headed back to the AirBnB I ran out of gas, I know, rookie mistake. Anyway, called the lady that manages the property and asked if her husband was still on the ranch property and if he could bring me a gallon of fuel. She said he was in town but would call him. He showed up about twenty minutes later with several gallons of fuel. I thanked him profusely and we went back to the property, loaded up, and headed home. I made sure I sent her a gift card via the mail to thank her for the roadside service.

+1

Or the color of my mailbox, or the color of paint I can use, etc, etc

Gift cards: When Connie and I moved here to West Virginia a week later one of our fellow Speedster guys " Bill " on this site who also lives in WV sent us a local restaurant dinner for two gift card with a note ......" Welcome to West Virginia "  !

probably gonna be Jim Beam Red Stag in this instance.

@edsnova posted:

probably gonna be Jim Beam Red Stag in this instance.

That works well also.

Do unto others as they would have you do unto them. Sounds like a good plan

Ed skills amaze me day in and day out, Ed could fall into a septic tank and emerge holding a diamond ~

Hey Ed, Ream THIS!

Channeling Vince, sorry, back to your regular discourse...

HOA: they suck, I'm with y'all on that.

Ed, sounds like our kind of neighborhood! And lucky you with the cool neighbors!

A revisionist hit, by Ed (sung to the Everly Brother’s Dream)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbU3zdAgiX8

Ream, ream, ream, ream
Ream, ream, ream, ream
When I want to, fix my car
When I want to, drive it far
Whenever I want to, all I have to do is
Ream, ream, ream, ream

When I feel blue, in the night
And I wake up, in a fright
Thinking of that damn car
All I have to do is ream

I can make it work, but I’m feeling like a jerk
Anytime night or day
Only trouble is, gee whiz
I'm reamin' my life away

My car is blue, and I am too,
I borrowed a tool, feel like a fool,
I know what must do, find a way to
Ream, ream, ream, ream, ream

I’ve never been so down, feeling like a clown
Anytime night or day
Only trouble is, gee whiz
I'm reamin' my life away

I’m so damned pissed, that I could die
I want to drive my car, and that is why
Whenever I need to, all I have to do is
Ream, ream, ream, ream
Ream, ream, ream, ream

Fade away with steady stream of tears….

Wow! That was good!
Pete

Fantastic!!!

That just puts a bow on it.

@Bob: IM S6 wins the internet for today.

Update (tech question): 

Torsion leaves, to my knowledge and by my experience, are supposed to slide out pretty easy once the center grub screw is loosened or removed.

Mine don't budge.

Took the grubs out of the adjusters. (Double-checked to make sure I had the right set of screws—the fixing grubs and not the adjusters). Tapped the upper (4-pack) with the rubber mallet. Tapped the lower (10-pack). Both slid about an inch and then stopped. 

Moved on to a block of wood and a bigger hammer. Then just the hammer. No joy. They'd slide a little one way then the other. Tried pulling with a vicegrip. I shook them, rattled them. Tapped them laterally with some vigor. Got a couple cold chisels and selected just one leaf at a time for attention.

Nothing worked. 

Examined matters more carefully and found I was sliding the whole center housing back and forth, so I oiled the holes and returned the grub screws in a couple three threads, not enough to make contact with the leaves. 

Now the spring packs slide about a quarter inch each way, max. 

Got the larger hammer. Whaled on 'em some, both individually and en blanc. Nope.

What am I missing? I did this job on Bridget most of a decade ago, and had another guy's beam completely apart and back together in a few hours on Saturday circa 2015.

Any advice appreciated. 

Knowledgeable advice moreso.

 

Any welded in height adjustment screws in the middle of the beam?

Yes, the height screws are there, in a bracket welded to the front(s) of the beam. They push on the grub screws and their little aluminum slider housings.

They look like 

I had to fiddle with mine to loosen their grip on the bars. 

I have never had any luck hammering on the end of the torsion bar stack-up to try to remove the bars.  It always seemed to do more harm than good.

It sounds as if (a.) the center grub screw has somehow distorted the top two thin leaves making it difficult to get the dimpled center of the leaves past the center donut and (b.) that the leaves are rusted together or (c.) that the donut is rusted to the leaves (most likely).

The stack-up is two thins on the bottom, two thicks in the middle and two thins (with the grub screw depression) on the top.

Re-assemble one of the trailing arms to the end of the torsion bar.  The other end of the torsion bar should NOT have the trailing arm assembled to it.  Use the assembled trailing arm as a sort-of slide hammer base by hammering against the inside of the trailing arm to force the bar stack outward from the center.

Usually the leaves slide right out with moderate effort, but sometimes, if they've become rusted together, they can be a real bear.  You could try heating the center donut a bit to see if that releases the leaves - a longer shot, but that sometimes does the trick.  IIRC, that center donut is captive in the torsion tube by three dimples tapped into the torsion tube to hold it in place.  Feel around the tube and you should feel them.  That's why it only goes so far and stops.  Putting the grub screw into the center donut (but not all the way in to the top two torsion bars) keeps it from moving more because the screw/bolt has less play and holds it closer.

BTW:  I would strongly suggest that you not remove the torsion bad stack entirely, tempted though you may be.  They can be a super-duper-major PITA to get back through the square-ish hole in the center donut.  Instead, tap against the trailing arm and pull them out to one side so that 4" - 6" of the far side of the bar is still in the center donut, then use your needle bearing puller/slide hammer/reamer to do whatever work you're doing on that side, then push them back in, swap trailing arms and pull it over to the other side to service that side of the tube.  

I actually got a bar stack to go in first try once.  ONCE.  I greased the hell out of everything and put an o-ring around the stack-up to hold them in place and damned if they didn't whistle right through first try.   Every other time I had to push two horizontal leaves leaves at a time through and those top two were always a bear.

Congratulated myself for a week, after that.

Thanks, Gordon. Yeah, that's the plan, just shift them over to one side and then the other. I, too, have had them out and had to reassemble the beam.

FWIW, the lower stack is complete with the small leaves, and those six small ones slide easy. It's the four big ones in the center of the stack that won't budge. The upper tube has only those four, and the same issue.

I soaked them again in Liquid Wrench and we'll see what's what tomorrow. I'll try reassembling a torsion arm on one side. Maybe the upper only, as the lower still has the whole hub assembly still attached. 

@edsnova posted:

FWIW, the lower stack is complete with the small leaves, and those six small ones slide easy. It's the four big ones in the center of the stack that won't budge. The upper tube has only those four, and the same issue.

Ed, forgive a stupid question (I'm a complete Luddite when it comes to beams) but could this be the source of your problems?  My web search for pictures to help me understand what you were describing shows both the top and bottom stacks having 10 leaves each. 4 wide ones and 3 narrow ones top and bottom. 

I can imagine a scenario when everything was tight, until you drove it, when the missing leaves wallered out and damaged the bushing, allowing the play you discovered?  

The leaves shouldn't touch the bushing, like ever . If you remove leaves I believe you are supposed to cut some small pieces for each end and the middle adjuster so they don't all get buggered when you lock them in with the grub screws.

@dlearl476 the center mount is machined so the leaves fit just so—you can see this in the pic I posted a few posts above this one. You can remove the small leaves without causing any trouble; the holes are stepped so the leaves can't twist or "waller" out. And, indeed, they have not done so in my application.

It appears VW designed these beams this way deliberately, to allow for easy changes in spring rates on lighter vehicles such as the Spyder. 

As Danny says, adding plugs made from cut leaves would be extra insurance, not necessary. I have run my MG TD replica with two sets of 4 leaves in front for most of a decade now, no problem. And it really improves the ride quality and handling.

Oh, also: once the beam is assembled, the leaves can't touch the bearings or the bushings. This is because they are captured inside the trailing arms which ride inside the bushings and bearings. 

@edsnova posted:

@dlearl476 the center mount is machined so the leaves fit just so—you can see this in the pic I posted a few posts above this one. You can remove the small leaves without causing any trouble; the holes are stepped so the leaves can't twist or "waller" out. And, indeed, they have not done so in my application.

It appears VW designed these beams this way deliberately, to allow for easy changes in spring rates on lighter vehicles such as the Spyder. 

As Danny says, adding plugs made from cut leaves would be extra insurance, not necessary. I have run my MG TD replica with two sets of 4 leaves in front for most of a decade now, no problem. And it really improves the ride quality and handling.

Oh, also: once the beam is assembled, the leaves can't touch the bearings or the bushings. This is because they are captured inside the trailing arms which ride inside the bushings and bearings. 

Gotcha. Thanks for the explanation. 

And we're on to PLAN C.

I tried pushing, pulling, tapping, whacking. I put the control arms back on and tapped and whacked them to try to pull the springs out. 

I tried selecting just one leaf at a time with the vice grip to pull on. 

I looked carefully at the center adjuster thingie. I looked at another identical adjuster thingie I happen to have in my spares stash.

See that slot? What if I twist the spring pack around until that slot shows in the oval adjustment hole and then I hit it with Liquid Wrench and then try to pry on it with a screw driver to like open it up slightly?

What indeed!?

Nothing is going to get those torsion springs to budge.*

Which means the puller I made to get the old bushings and bearings out will not be working on this beam.

Which means how do I get the new Delrin stuff in place when it comes Tuesday? And HOW CAN I REAM THOSE NEW BUSHINGS AS REQUIRED?

Plan C: Forget the Delrin and just replace the bearing and bushing in the top driver's side.

Complication: New Micarta inner bushings also require reaming.

What to do?

I pulled the OG VW bearings and bushings from my spare beam...

They came out intact. 

So now it's down to making an installation tool. I have another washer like the puller washer I can hog out the center square to clear the spring pack, and a piece of pipe with a slightly smaller OD than the top tube's ID. If I cut the end square and tack the washer on centered it should work as a useable drift. I'll mark the depth and try to figure out a way to make it into a press so I don't damage the bushing.

Or there's OPTION D: Pull and wreck the outer bearings and use the drift to drive the inner bushings in farther, then install the Delrin, after first installing in the spare beam and pre-reaming it there, then pulling it out. 

WHAT THE HELL AM I DOING WITH MY LIFE I'M SUPPOSED TO BE A GODDAMN WRITER!!

==

*Some of you may be wondering why I have made no mention of the Flame Hammer. The reason is simple: The beam is under a 1/4 full gas tank and surrounded on all sides by fiberglass. Also it is chock full of grease. Could a torch be used? Sure! I could just remove the fuel tank and shroud the fiberglass with whatever. Can you tell me the smoke point of the grease that's been pumped into the beam? How about the powder coat? AND WHY IS THIS NECESSARY??

 

I would take some time away, Ed.

It's troubling to see a writer resort to all caps and doubled punctuation.

I worry that you're reaching some tipping point from which there's no return. You don't want future generations looking back and summarizing your life in the sad story of Ed and the torsion bars.

These are simple, mechanical things. We have the ability to reason and opposable thumbs. Over centuries, we have shown that we can master mechanical things and make them do our bidding.

Maybe some trout fishing or a few days on the Chesapeake will help you reset?

When you come back, you can buy a bigger hammer.

 

 

 

What Mitch said. We get smarter when we get away from the problem.

The 356 style center adjusters that we use look the same as what you have.  They may be different (likely are) but just in case... our have a hidden set screw that locks the bars to the center section, and then a 2nd exposed set screw at the adjuster.  I'm sure you've looked, so this may not be your issue, but just in case rotate the leaves 360 and look for a hidden set screw while you rotate.

Also, i can't tell how yours are attached.  I've seen versions where you cut out a section of the beam and weld in the adjuster to replace the section you cut out, and there are versions where you mill a slot and just weld the adjuster bracket to the existing beam. If yours is the former, I can see where it would be easy to have a blow through in the weld that would act as a permanent stop locking the center section in place.

holy ****.

THERE IS ANOTHER SET SCREW HIDDEN INSIDE THE MECHANISM THAT YOU CAN ONLY SEE IF YOU ROTATE THE MF AFTER REMOVING WHAT YOU THOUGHT WAS THE GODDAMN SET SCREW??

And thank you, @Sacto Mitch, it's the trout fishing what did it.

Welp...

Quarter inch allen fits these. You can reach the lower one by feel if you stand directly under it and feel around and curse until your finger joints scream as loud as you do.

So that's good.

Pulled the outer bearing on the passenger upper but the inner bushing is stuck. I got the puller working and then it sort of "popped" and came out and now I can't get it back in so that's cool. 

The honest truth is that I really did just about give up fishing for this hobby. 

I'm an idiot.

Is that picture where the wrench hit the wall when you threw it? 🥴

Either that or Ed's foot......

@edsnova posted:

Welp...

Quarter inch allen fits these. You can reach the lower one by feel if you stand directly under it and feel around and curse until your finger joints scream as loud as you do.

So that's good.

Pulled the outer bearing on the passenger upper but the inner bushing is stuck. I got the puller working and then it sort of "popped" and came out and now I can't get it back in so that's cool. 

The honest truth is that I really did just about give up fishing for this hobby. 

I'm an idiot.

OK, so I have been of no help at all on this one.  I have NEVER seen a double set screw donut on any of the 8 or so VW front ends I've pulled apart or modified for adjustable height mods (and I always used the Berg "Avis-style" adjusters for mine).

I'm filing this one away so that future jobs won't go through what Ed has had to endure.

Sorry, Ed........

I'm glad at least that puzzle is solved, Ed. Here's wishing you smoother sailing from here on.

 

Good to see you getting back to lower case again, Ed.

 

Yeah.....   Wouldn’t want to see you turning into GERD, after all......

Somethings take a long time to learn or figure out.... just life

Ed, if it makes you feel any better, your explanation of the missing leafs in your beam kind of explains why my front suspension feels pretty supple (now that I switched the KYB shocks and 18psi in the size tires Carey recommends) and my rear end feels like a "Hardtail." 

Which begs the question: does anyone sell thinner torsion bars for the rear? I don't think I've ever seen anything but thicker ones. My older Beck doesn't have adjustable spring plates and I'm thinking of updating that. I'd love to put in lighter torsion bars when I do that, if they're available. 

This is the only thing I found in a short search:

https://www.kartek.com/parts/s...ar-torsion-bars.html

You could contact Sway-Away direct to see if they have smaller, custom bars.

@Gordon Nichols posted:

This is the only thing I found in a short search:

https://www.kartek.com/parts/s...ar-torsion-bars.html

You could contact Sway-Away direct to see if they have smaller, custom bars.

Good idea, I need to call them about the spring plates anyway. 

 

Doh!  My Selective Vision Disorder strikes again. I could have sworn that SA only listed two bars when I looked at their site the other day; OEM and +2mm. In my defense, I was looking at the OEM VW page. I'll drop Carey a line and ask him what he uses. 

@Gordon Nichols posted:

This is the only thing I found in a short search:

https://www.kartek.com/parts/s...ar-torsion-bars.html

You could contact Sway-Away direct to see if they have smaller, custom bars.

So, this is kind've weird.

Like a lot of guys of a certain age and disposition, I have problems staying asleep. I fall asleep easily, but after about 4-5 hrs, I wake up and have a lot of difficulty going back to sleep. 

I ended up buying a limo as a result of such a night. Last night, I amused myself for about 2 hrs in the sway-away site, looking at this very information. FWIW, I'd definitely call Carey before switching to something lighter. With a swing axle, I'd be leery of doing anything that might induce snap-oversteer.

I think one of the TD replica guys pulled his torsion bars and had them turned down a couple thousandths and put them back. This was before my time on the board though and the guy who (reportedly) did that has not been heard from in years. Paul Mossberg might know the story.

Further progress: The passenger side upper beam is clear. The inner bushing in that side came out pretty chewed up, but I am as yet unsure if my puller thingy did the damage. 

I now must make a new, slightly larger, puller thingy for the lower needle bearing, as it is just a hair larger than the uppers. It appears the lower inner bushing is the same size as the uppers though. 

I guess we have to thank Carey again !!  I certainly had no idea about the extra set screw !!  Knowing me, I would have torn up the front end to find out why !

Question : Why would someone put that set screw in there ? Was it to hold the center piece and the torsion bars in their position during assembly and welding ?......Bruce

No idea, Bruce. I saw the threaded hole on my spare and stupidly figured it was builder's choice as to which one got the set screw. I know the sand guys use these adjusters to raise their suspension so I just assumed the second hole was there to give them a 90-degree different option along the outside of the tubes to weld these in. 

Anyway, now we know. Very much thanks to @chines1, without whose advice I might have been seriously injured, as we shall see.

Progress today. The Delrin bushings came.

I went out after dinner and slid one on the upper trailing arm. Nice tight fit. Then I pressed it into the beam. It slipped right in with just a little persuasion from the palm of my hand. Checked the trailing arm again and perfect: tight but not too tight. No reaming required.

I made a new, slightly larger puller for the lower bearing and pulled both of them before switching back to the smaller cut washer to pull the inner bushings with. But when I poked around in the beam I could not feel the "step" indicating the presence of an inner bushing. This was true on both sides. 

!

I went back to my spare beam and did the same thing, easily finding the bushings in that one. 

So I guess it's a good thing I went through this process.

I'll clean out the grease and shine a light in, and dig around in there tomorrow. If they're gone that makes the job easier: just drill out the dimples and install a couple small sheet metal screws to hold the new ones, then press them in until the screws stop them, then put the outers in and reassemble. 

Of course if I find the old bushings I'll extract them.

It makes no sense to me that the inner bushings would be MIA in three out of the four corners of this beam. Again, I had previously shaken these wheels (feeling for bearing lash) finding no appreciable play. And I drove the car about 5-10 kilometers through these suburban streets.

So I am well and truly stumped. Which I guess is pretty normal.

Well, at least after you're done with the bushings the beam will be safe and true.

It really sucks when you have to do work that thought was done already. I do feel that particular pain!

When you get the bushing set in place- don't forget to pull the zerk fittings out and drill through the bushings so they will lubricate the trailing arms as intended.

Ya know, Isn't that set screw what holds the entire suspension together ?  I was visualizing the whole assembly and when I got to that part it dawned on me that if that set screw isn't in there, the entire torsion bar could move, causing the control arm to start sliding out it's bearing along with all the suspension. tire. etc,   and Ba - Boom !

Of course both torsion bar set screws would have to be missing for the whole suspension to com off. Then its possible both sides of the suspension could fall off !

Maybe the sway bar would hold them in until the problem is discovered ? Looks like those set screws are pretty important or I'm missing some other attachment to prevent this problem.........Bruce

There are control arms on either end that would keep everything together.

What Stan said....

The 4 rather large grub screws with lock nuts in each trailing arm keep it together.

Glad to see those bushings arrived protected by the now discarded mask AND "Pilfer Protection" tape. 

These are trying times and.....

( Thought you might need a chuckle, Ed! )

Bruce when you think about it, loss of the center grub screws would just set the front of the car down on the ground.