Turbo Hats for Speedy

I don't think you're missing a thing, Mitch. We just need a place to duct cooler air from, get air filters somewhere in that plumbing, and keep out water.  I'm not sure what the air pressure would be in the rear wheel wells (turbulent airflow is complicated enough that I couldn't even guess) but that's certainly a possible spot.  Scoops, NACA ducts, and louvers don't work as well as one might think. They do work, but aren't efficient unless boundary layers of airflow are controlled and their angle of attack is within their design parameters.

It would be intereting to duct some louvers like on Alan's project into a sealed box, put a MAP sensor in it, and take readings at various speeds to see what the pressure does. It wouldn't be undeard of for them to generate negative pressure like a syphon feed garden sprayer. It's also entirely possible that they're a great source for the purpose. I can't tell from just looking and their appearance on a 1950's race car isn't any guarantee.

AH! Typing at the same time as Stan!  Jinx, I owe you a coke!

@Stan Galat posted:

So - out of curiosity (and because I'm an engine math geek), I went down a wormhole tonight. My question was regarding how much air a typical Speedster engine ingests running down the road - both air used for cooling and air used in combustion.

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I'm guessing the only T1 engines that really get enough air are Baja Bugs, sand-rails, and dragsters without deck-lids, which explains why desert racers are able to run for hours in the desert at WOT, and I struggle on a desert highway unless I back it off or pop the deck-lid or both.

If the fan and the intake system are in competition for air, I'm not sure which would win out (it would be the one with the stronger vacuum, which I would suppose to be the intake), but I would suppose it wouldn't be optimal for either. I'm guessing most of us are really starved for air, which is why popping the deck-lid an inch or two on a really hot day lowers temps at least 10 deg. That, I can say for sure.

In short - I'm not sure how else to say it. The air is not ever going to blow out of a hole in the bodywork on the inlet side of the fan and induction system. Getting the engine more air is probably one of the most overlooked modifications (at least by me) I could be making for my engine.

Ah, gently as possible, the Spyder situation may differ.

From my experiment a couple years back: "I taped 3-inch lengths of yarn to the back deck and the grill openings and pointed my GoPro at them while driving at 30, 40, 50 and 60 mph. Looks like the yarn dives in at low speed, higher RPM but at about 30-35 mph airflow becomes neutral...At 50 and up it looks like there's more pressure under the grill and the yarn blows out but sort of lays down across as the pressure above the deck acts on it."

The area under all these cars is a high pressure zone. The speed of the vehicle increases this pressure, which we experience as both drag and lift.

The air wants to go somewhere with lower pressure. It's trying to come up into the spaces around the engine and transaxle.

The space behind your back seat, in front of your engine, being open to the road, very likely becomes a high pressure area at speeds above 25 or 30 mph. Just as the whole engine/transaxle bay in my Spyder becomes pressurized at about 50—as long as I'm not still in second gear.

I have a louvered belly pan under my engine and trans, which purposely lets in some of the cooler air in front of it. But a lot more air (along with some leaves and dirt) rushes in through the sizable gaps in the wheel wells. I know this from cleaning it out.

This suggests the same or similar happens to your cars. Or, at any rate, it is possible to get a T1 engine enough air in something other than a sand rail, and it is possible (in fact it is routine) to get air blowing out of a hole in the bodywork.

A Speedster and a Spyder are apples and oranges IMHO.

And a Speedster with a PROPERLY SEALED engine compartment cannot be compared to any Spyder because no Spyder except an OE Spyder had a sealed undertray. I doubt that even the OE Spyder was sealed. But a Speedster engine bay usually is, so there shouldn't be any air pressure coming out of a Speedster grille.

Respectfully...

There is no doubt that the area of the intake grille is a low pressure zone with the vehicle in motion. There's also no doubt that the area under the car is a high pressure zone. Both of these things make it hard for the cooling fan to move enough air (pulling air from a low pressure zone and pushing it into a high pressure zone).

However, the holes in my firewall do nothing for cooling (I ran cooler before putting them in). Running the fans I've got in those 8" holes actually makes the engine run hotter. Blocking them off makes no difference in the temperatures. Popping my decklid drops head and oil temperatures significantly.

The engine is moving a houseful of air down the air-cleaners and out the bottom of the engine. That air is coming from somewhere. I get nothing from the wheelwells or the underside of the car in the engine bay - it's totally sealed in a Speedster.

If, as you postulate, the air is moving out of the engine bay through the grilles - then the car would run cooler with no vents at all, because the fan would not be in competition with the air being sucked out by low pressure zone behind the vehicle. As everybody knows this to be untrue, I can only surmise that there is something at work the pieces of yarn do not show.

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For me, the big problem is that science is not a debate to be decided by skillful orators or even a democratic process.

It doesn't really matter which side gets the most votes. Sometimes the smart money is all wrong.

None of us has conclusive data or anything that even passes for 'data', really. No double blind trials. No published results. No unbiased peer review.

We don't know if turbo hats ducted to what we guess could be cooler air will help at all.

We don't even have computer models for predicted results.

We are blind men in a dark room. All of us.

There will be no light until someone cuts some holes, hooks up some ducting, and goes for a ride.

OK, you first.

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^ That's what makes it a hobby. If it were a production vehicle, automotive engineers would have created an orthodoxy, and we'd just be painting by numbers.

I'm not able to duct anything, but I am opening up the deck lid (as soon as I can walk again).

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Walk again?

Have I missed another memo?

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@Sacto Mitch posted:

.Walk again?

Have I missed another memo?

It's a slight exaggeration, but after today - not much of one.

Both knees have been bone on bone for over a year (the result of doing blue-collar work since I was 15, currently with the physique of Santa Claus). I'm scheduled for a total replacement on the left knee in 7 days and on the right one 6 weeks after.

The first one was supposed to be 1/5/23, but my union switched insurance carriers without letting membership know until after the fact (which was classy). My (original) surgeon doesn't take my new insurance. I was 2 days out when the rug got pulled out.

I'm made ambulatory by means of tramadol and caffeine. I sleep not much at all due to the pain. It's been a rough pull this winter.

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Ouch. Just, ouch.

I'm really lucky to still be running all OEM parts.

But the aftermarket is now supposed to be a lot better than it used to be — and way better than what's available for aircooled VW and Porshee.

Just hope they give you ice cream when it's over.

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Hang in there, Stan.  We need you back 100% by September.

And that, my friends, is how we do thread drift.

Good luck Stan. You’ll be grinning like a Cheshire Cat after surgery and PT are done. Just remember when PT says don’t do it if it hurts they are lying. It always hurts.

@550 Phil posted:

Good luck Stan. You’ll be grinning like a Cheshire Cat after surgery and PT are done. Just remember when PT says don’t do it if it hurts they are lying. It always hurts.

Thanks, and yeah - that's the expectation.

I've talked to about a dozen people who've done both knees. Over 50% of them say "the first one went great, but the second was not as good". I wonder how much of that is expectations, how much is PT, and how much is some other factor - but it's enough different people that it makes me wonder.

Regardless - no matter what, the current situation is pretty unworkable.

Stan posted:  "I'm made ambulatory by means of tramadol and caffeine. I sleep not much at all due to the pain. It's been a rough pull this winter."

Let's hope we never hear that again...

Best of luck, old man (as the Brits say).

@Stan Galat-  Sorry to hear this, dude. I hope it all goes well.

@Stan Galat posted:

It's a slight exaggeration, but after today - not much of one.

Both knees have been bone on bone for over a year (the result of doing blue-collar work since I was 15, currently with the physique of Santa Claus). I'm scheduled for a total replacement on the left knee in 7 days and on the right one 6 weeks after.

The first one was supposed to be 1/5/23, but my union switched insurance carriers without letting membership know until after the fact (which was classy). My (original) surgeon doesn't take my new insurance. I was 2 days out when the rug got pulled out.

I'm made ambulatory by means of tramadol and caffeine. I sleep not much at all due to the pain. It's been a rough pull this winter.

I've been there Stan. That's how I was when I finally had both of mine done. Within 30 minutes of waking up I was in extreme pain and the knees were already swollen. Likely because they hadn't really become un-swollen from the day before. I was in the training unit and walking around while instructing was a huge part of the day but at least I wasn't wearing 35 lbs of additional gear everyday like the previous 23 years.

My first one went well enough but the doctor's office staff was almost incompetent. They hadn't scheduled me for PT before the surgery was done so they had to do it afterward and there was a delay getting me in so they sent someone to my house to do some PT in advance of the real PT. I got a slow start but made up for it in dedication to my PT. I was the only person in that physical therapy building making any noise while doing PT. I would look over at people and you would have thought they were on a Sunday morning walk in the park. Next to no weight on the machine, half-ass reps, and more time on their phones. I memorized my exercises after the first time in the office and worked through my exercises on my own. I had done all these exercises before when I had the meniscus repaired. I was at max weight within a few visits and pushed through and got maximum flexibility.

On my second replacement 8 weeks later I had a meeting with the office manager and expressed my dislike for the laziness of the staff in not returning emails or phone calls. The OM had me cc them on every email and amazingly I got my responses within a few hours of each email I sent. I had PT lined up a week before the surgery and was in the PT office within a couple days and went at it as hard as the first time.

I have very good flexibility now and walk I 4 miles every day. I was thinking about renaming my dog Five Miles. Then I could say I walk five Miles everyday. I don't run. But I didn't run before either. I make sure I wear gel type knee pads when I kneel down because without them it feels very weird and it hurts a lot because you're crushing flesh and nerves between he titanium and the concrete. The knee pads are amazing. Getting up is a little slower but doable. You'll have residual pain around the knee for a long time but it's nothing like what you experienced before.

Best of luck on the surgeries and your recovery.

@Stan Galat posted:

It's a slight exaggeration, but after today - not much of one.

Both knees have been bone on bone for over a year (the result of doing blue-collar work since I was 15, currently with the physique of Santa Claus). I'm scheduled for a total replacement on the left knee in 7 days and on the right one 6 weeks after.

The first one was supposed to be 1/5/23, but my union switched insurance carriers without letting membership know until after the fact (which was classy). My (original) surgeon doesn't take my new insurance. I was 2 days out when the rug got pulled out.

I'm made ambulatory by means of tramadol and caffeine. I sleep not much at all due to the pain. It's been a rough pull this winter.

Hi Stan......this is what happens when you start reaching the "golden years???" Is there a reason why you're getting both knees done so close together?  I would think getting one done and then getting the other done would be the way to go? (at least you got a cane to work with, so you are not down and out completely) Hope all goes well!

I remember when my Dad had both his knees done, he said you had to push through the discomfort during early PT since whatever flexibility you attain in the first X weeks. Put in the work.

@Larry Scislowicz posted:

Hi Stan......this is what happens when you start reaching the "golden years???" Is there a reason why you're getting both knees done so close together?

Yep, there is, Larry. This is the “minimally invasive/rapid recovery” process - it’s outpatient, and they’ll have me walking as soon as the anesthesia wears off (and even that is “twilight anesthesia”). If everything goes according to plan, I’ll be cleared to climb a ladder in 3 weeks (which is good, since ladders are a giant part of what I do to support my husband/father/grandfather habit).

I’m 59. I’ve got a few years before I can (or even want to) be done.

My knees are bad enough that I’m rolling out on the joints (bow-legged)  - this is having the effect of starting to give me hip and ankle problems as well (both sides). Waiting would only have the effect of ruining those joints too. Both knees are bone on bone all the way across, with spurs inside and out. Walking (even standing) is pretty rough. By the end of the day, I’m exhausted - but the pain makes it really hard to go to sleep.

I waited long enough. Waiting further accomplishes nothing good.

The surgeries are 6 weeks apart, as that is the minimal timeframe.  

@Stan Galat posted:

It's a slight exaggeration, but after today - not much of one.

Both knees have been bone on bone for over a year (the result of doing blue-collar work since I was 15, currently with the physique of Santa Claus). I'm scheduled for a total replacement on the left knee in 7 days and on the right one 6 weeks after.

The first one was supposed to be 1/5/23, but my union switched insurance carriers without letting membership know until after the fact (which was classy). My (original) surgeon doesn't take my new insurance. I was 2 days out when the rug got pulled out.

I'm made ambulatory by means of tramadol and caffeine. I sleep not much at all due to the pain. It's been a rough pull this winter.

Make sure you do pain meds without exception before you do and and all the PT they prescribe. .

Wow.....you are at the point where it needs to be done. My knees are bone on bone also but as long as I can get in and out of Speedy (with minimal pain) I'm ok with that. Although getting in and out of a Speedster could be "good exercise" after surgery....be well my friend!

@Stan Galat  Glad you're having the reparative surgery done, my brutha! Praying for the best possible outcome for you and Godspeed on your road to recovery and less painful days.  

@Larry Scislowicz posted:

My knees are bone on bone also.

Sorry to hear that, Larry. Wearing out is rough. I’m just really grateful we live in a time when replacements are possible, and even commonplace.

Be well.

My 67 year old sister had her right knee done in October, and is back to walking 3 miles a day. Hang in there Stan, there are better days ahead. (a lot of PT, but it has to be done).

Bill

@Stan Galat posted:

Sorry to hear that, Larry. Wearing out is rough. I’m just really grateful we live in a time when replacements are possible, and even commonplace.

Be well.

Amen....

Let me start by simply saying,"It really sucks getting old."
_{(and you ain't there yet, Stan)}

I haven't ridden a bicycle since last July 10'th, when I started PT for my upper back.  My trauma comes from a crash with a pickup truck while riding home from work on my bike back in 1983.  I got pretty messed up and hyper-stressed a lot of stuff (we hit at about 35 mph and my left shoulder took the brunt of the impact), but miraculously, never broke a bone.  Sometimes, that's a lot harder to overcome.  I had all sorts of muscles that got hyper-stressed and it took a few years to put it all behind me - I thought.

I did the "Let's rebuild your rotator cup" on my shoulder (it took the brunt of the impact at about 35 mph) around 20 years later - You never want to hurry these things, ya know?  And you live in constant pain for a while because it's "manly".    I went through the 16 weeks of post-surgery PT, which really showed me where my pain limits were and, with some help from Jim, my PT guy, how to blow past those limits and go for the gold (side note - DO NOT try this at home).  

Today, that shoulder is as good as my other one.  The hyper-extended muscles behind it?  Not so much.  So, the crash left me with lingering whiplash issues with my lower and upper back, especially my neck, which is developing arthritis in a few joints from the whiplash trauma.  Nothing I can't deal with given the proper exercises, done religiously, but I fear that my bicycle days might be over unless I can overcome my fears and try a recumbent, lower profile bike (Quite simply, I fear that they are no-where near as visible to motorists and I might get hit again).  Sitting more upright is the only semi-painless way I could continue.

Flash forward to now, and I'm managing OK, as long as I do my exercises from my torturous PT lady every day, but my wife has been struggling along for a few years with a painful, rebellious hip that is finally scheduled for replacement in a couple of weeks.  Everything we've heard is that hips are easier to deal with than knees (or even shoulders) so we're optimistic for a great, fast recovery.  Still, we live in a split-level house and she's worried about getting up the 10 steps to the main level on arriving home from hospital, but I and our great (and younger) neighbors will get her there no matter what, to get her to a cup of tea and a muffin.  

@Stan Galat  I have a good bicycle friend, Pat Hurley, a delightful fellow Irishman even shorter than me!  He had both knees done a while back at the same interval as you.  He was on a bike trainer in a couple of weeks and back on the road in 5 weeks after surgery, when we both did a short bike path ride to "Let's see what happens!"  (I had the local EMT's pre-programmed into my cellphone, just in case).   I waited for Pat to meet me at the town common and when he rode up he got off his (very small) bike and stood beside it and said "See anything different?"

I looked and, as God's my witness, I couldn't see anything different, so I finally said, "Nope!  What's up?"

Pat replied, "I've been bow-legged my entire life and look at this!" (pointing to his legs).

"They're straight!"  He was like a kid who just won Willy Wonka's "Golden Ticket"  He's been back riding decent distances, ever since, with a normal leg gait.

Modern Medicine and skeletal orthopedics is a very wonderful thing - And getting better daily..........

Good luck with the upcoming adventure, Stan!

My 87 year old Mom had her left knee replaced this past summer. After PT, she's doing really well.

If she can do it, so can Stan.

@Gordon Nichols posted:

Let me start by simply saying,"It really sucks getting old."
_{(and you ain't there yet, Stan)}

It isn't always the number of miles you've traveled, it's what happened to you between each of those miles you've traveled. I know for me those miles were hard and Stan's have been even harder.

I was told I have the heart of a man in his thirties and I was also told I had the knees of an eighty-something year old.

Sounds like a bunch of us on here........

Of all the surgeons I worked with over the years, I think the orthopods were the most like the folks on this forum. Things not working? Get the bigger hammer.

They'll make you right, @Stan Galat!

gotta respect Orthos,,theyre the ones wearing mudboots in the OR

@Michael Pickett posted:

Of all the surgeons I worked with over the years, I think the orthpods were the most like the folks on this forum. Things not working? Get the bigger hammer.

They'll make you right, @Stan Galat!

My dad came from a big family - like, really big (16 kids - one mom, one dad). They were all Type A personalities. Dad had an older brother who was a contractor - lots and lots of property, retired with 500+ rental units and a hotel he had built or acquired along the way. All of his 5 sons worked with him swinging hammers as they grew up. Three of them eventually became surgeons - John as a cardiologist, Steve was a general surgeon, and Dan Jr. became an orthopedic surgeon - so he could continue being a carpenter, he said.

As an aside - I pretty much stopped going to family reunions on Dad's side a decade or two ago. I figured it'd probably just be easier to mail in the first page of my 1040 and save everybody the time. Same with Mom's "academic phd" side - I can only hear how backward and provincial my thinking is for so long before I start to take it personally.

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@Stan Galat posted:

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...I figured it'd probably just be easier to mail in the first page of my 1040 and save everybody the time...

Why not just send them a photo of your presidential limo?

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@Robert M posted:

It isn't always the number of miles you've traveled, it's what happened to you between each of those miles you've traveled.

You only get one ride on this ball. I've always wanted to make the most of my ticket.

@Stan Galat posted:

You only get one ride on this ball. I've always wanted to make the most of my ticket.

I concur.

Me too. Main reason I started racing. Gotta do it before I get too old to get in and out!

One of the things I enjoy so much about this website is the thread drift.  

This thread has NOT disappointed me in the least!  Not to mention the sheer volume (see what I did there) of information I learned about air flow.

Although I must inquire…when will the discussion turn to pie?

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Figuring airflow through a tubular pipe almost always involves pi.

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Aaaaand Mitch wins the internet today!

@Sacto Mitch posted:

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Figuring airflow through a tubular pipe almost always involves pi.

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Well played, Mitch.  Well played indeed.

@TheMayoMachine posted:

One of the things I enjoy so much about this website is the thread drift.  

This thread has NOT disappointed me in the least!  Not to mention the sheer volume (see what I did there) of information I learned about air flow.

Although I must inquire…when will the discussion turn to pie?

LOL Ain’t that the truth. To get back on track, @JMM (Michael) red wrinkle finish air cleaner tops is the best thing I’ve heard in weeks.

Good Luck, Stan. My brother had both of his done last year and is doing great. I know just how you feel. My back has been keeping me from doing anything longer than about 10 minutes since last August.