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@Joel Roth posted:

I think it will be done before 2 1/2 years. I am hoping under 2 years. They have the chassis and now the body and are doing the measurements/mock-ups for the drive train fitment (engine and transmission) and the suspension, wheels, tires and brakes. These are the difficult things. Once this is done, it is really just a matter of getting all the parts and putting it all together and finishing it. I know there are other things to be done along the way, and that there will be periods of down time, but how long can this really take? How hard can this really be?

Hard enough that darn few builders have tried it.

I guess I’m not talking about body on chassis. I’m talking about first payment to delivery. Obviously the wait time to beginning the build has increased tremendously during the last few years. I made my first payment May 2021, right after Carlisle. I understand that Joel was moved up in the pecking order because of Carey’s desire to initiate the R&D process. My car will likely not begin it’s build until early 2023. Joel and I put down our first Benjamins within a month of each other. It will be I interesting to see who gets their car first. I was told 21/2 years. I’d love to see Joel get his car before then. And I’d sure like to get mine before then. Other than my car’s, first ever for Beck, Conv D hard top my car will have no R&D. Even with my build starting a year later I’m betting that I get mine first.

I'll make a few quick comments here and then I'll excuse myself from this thread's notifications and if anyone needs me to look at something or reply they'll have to tag or text or PM me.  I think this game of "over/under" will just irritate me...  And to be clear, I am NOT upset, have fun with it, I just don't want to be irritated and I have enough on my plate as it is.

We work at the speed of right and our estimates on timeframe are just that, ESPECIALLY on custom builds.  I completely understand Joel's desire to get the car quicker and everyones desire to see the build materialize quicker, but the reality is that there are a LOT of unknowns that only a builder/manufacturer could understand.  There are so many cases of a client saying "let's change part A" and not realizing that a change in "part A" also effects parts "B, C, D and E", so you change those parts only to effect parts "F, G, H and I".  In addition, the things we're doing with this 996 drivetrain/DME simply haven't been done in the same capacity that we're doing them, so I'm sure there are unknowns that even we haven't thought about tackling yet... BUT I have one of the best crews out there, one of the best suspension/chassis designers in the nation, one of the best electrical engineers I've ever worked with, and an assembly team from lamination to final assembly that are passionate about what they do, so I know well knock it out of the park in the end, whenever that may be.

Yes, I made Joel's body out of order by several cars, his chassis was here and waiting his turn in the body mold already, same as about 20-25 other chassis.  I did this so I can start mock up of the drivetrain before Joel ships it off to LN to be rebuilt.  They'll be ready for it in a few weeks and I'd rather mock up with the old dirty unit and make any necessary changes based off of it.  Once the mock up is completed, Joel's build will go back into its original order.  

Rear suspension: using the 996 rear suspension IS possible,  but will require remaking several of the cradle pieces and links in CAD and then producing modified versions of those OEM parts.  Initially I ballparked $20-30K for all of the custom suspension components, which in my mind makes it cost prohibitive, especially with little to no real gain.  In addition, it would limit the wheel size to something much larger and more modern, plus they would have to be custom made or recentered, so figure +$5k in wheels on top of the other custom bits.  I can't justify spending that much just to say you have Porsche suspension when our stock suspension works so well, so stock it will stay (modified for the 996 biased obviously).

At this time, the stock 2" pie-widened body is our goal.  I've designed slight modifications to the shock angle, and I corrected spring rate, compression and rebound for the added angle, but that change alone will allow me to get 7" of wheel on the rear.

OK, I have clients all day and the first just arrived.  TTYL

Thanks for that, Carey. I know you've got better things to do. You know FULL WELL how easily one change cascades into ten.

"How hard can it be?" Seriously, that question should never be asked unless the asker does the work himself.

This totally reminds me of a particularly BAD boss we had at Verizon. To him, EVERY operation we had to perform "only took ten minutes". What a dope.

I'll paraphrase the do/teach saying:

"Those of us who can't do, pay"

Last edited by DannyP

Gotta do a long distance test drive to raise my confidence a bit, but I'd say quite high given recent indications.  I've relocated the speakers to give me something to listen to on the looooooooooooooooooooooooooong drive to Carlisle and the considerably shorter one to the mountains, so barring any unforeseen problems I should be good to go.  Oh, and Danny...

Bill%20the%20Cat

UPDATE: Well I see @DannyP deleted his good natured poke of me, but I'll just leave this here for fun.

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Last edited by Lane Anderson

I recently built what was to be a very basic dune buggy for a guy that started out at $14k and quickly escalated to well north of $22k. So I'll reinforce what Carey said... one change can snowball into a multitude of other changes to accommodate the first change as so forth then explain those changes requiring a good number of man hours to facilitate as well as additional costs. Not to mention doing this takes time away from other peoples projects.

Last edited by Alan Merklin

@chines1 - that was a pretty thoughtless joke I made about the over/under. As a guy who is trying desperately (and mostly failing) to hit deadlines in a post-pandemic "new normal", I understand how it came across and I'm really sorry.  It took the post down.

Things have always taken as long as they take to do right, and that has take me a lot longer over the last couple of years. I can only imagine how it's been for you.

Again (and for anybody else who's reading) - this is all extraordinarily difficult, more than you can imagine, and Carey and team are doing a fantastic job navigating a very difficult business climate.

Last edited by Stan Galat

Sorry. I’ll stop mentioning completion dates. I just know how long this stuff takes. In 2001 Greg Leach was just trying to exchange a Suby for a Type 1.  Same Type1 transmission with Kennedy plate. And then figure out where to put the radiator. He put it in the back and the car wouldn’t cool. But then the wiring harness etc.  Joel’s car is a much more ambitious endeavor. My car paved the way for many to enjoy the power and reliability of the Subaru power train. We also learned at my expense that the radiator must go in the front. Joel’s car will pave the way for many in the future to again, after the demise of IM, to enjoy the pleasure of a 911 power train in a replica. It’s a BIG deal. But it will take time to get it right. Ok I’ll shut up.

That's how I felt when I built my CMC.  Every damn thing had to be modified or customized along the way and it was taking forever (I'm sure Merklin is chuckling about now).  Then, towards the end (little did I know that I still had three years to go from there) a Hot Rod friend convinced me to take it to another hot rod friend for body finishing and paint.  Those guys took quite a while (the job was used as filler), but the end result was amazing - Way, way, WAY better than I could ever have done on my best day.

Quality work costs, in time and money, but it's worth it in the end.

Carey has a great operation going out there.......  Greg Leach, too, but as has been mentioned, ANY customization screws up the work flow and causes delays and a lot of running around for the builders.  That's the same for cars, furniture, appliances, computers and anything else.  The time estimates that builders give are based on experience and current conditions and those conditions are changing for them daily.  It'll be tough in Manufacturing for the foreseeable future, too.

Thanks for the comments and texts.  I do want to make it clear that I am NOT upset by this at all, was not offended, etc...  As I explained to a few of you privately, with as many orders as we have on the books I have about 10% of those that like to check in weekly, which is fine... BUT at 40 orders thats only 4 calls a week that pull me away from work, at 200.. well you get it.  Coupe that with material stipend, parts shortages, labor shortages, and 400% increase in new business, maybe I can be a bit sensitive... :-)

@550 Phil I don't have time to go back and reread at the moment, but on my initial reading, from what I remember, you had a very realistic take on it all, but you've been through it many times.  I don't think your car will beat Joel's, but then again as I said before there are still some serious unknowns with Joel's build and sometimes you don't know what you don't know... but I think we've positioned ourselves to tackle anything that come up.  I have the M96 GTS prototype up and running, despite a handful of PCNA techs telling that what we were trying to do could not be done.  I knew better and pushed on like we do...

Anyway, client #1 down, 2 to go and then I need to get in the shop and do some real work.  But again there was no offense taken on my end by the over/under and I realize that for you guys it was all in good fun.  Back to it...

Wait a minute here. People are taking what I said completely out of context. I was NOT being critical of Carey at all.

What Carey and Special Editions does is outstanding. They do great work. Their workmanship is outstanding. Their customer service is outstanding. I am one of their biggest fans. If I did not feel that way I would not have selected them to build my car.

Nor was I complaining about how long it will actually take to build my car. I fully understand that what I am building is a custom car. Things need to be done and however long it takes it will take.

All I was doing was expressing my "hope and desire" that my car is completed sooner than the projected 2-2 1/2 years.

You guys completely over-reacted to what I was saying. Geeze!!!

Joel

Maybe people reacted to what I was saying. I was just passing along my personal experience at being the “first” to have something built. Patience is definitely a virtue. Even after the 2 1/2 year wait my car still wasn’t right. But it was a lesson and all Suby cars after that had front radiators. My current 2018 Spyder in my opinion is about as close to Spyder perfection as possible. Greg definitely ended up getting it right. And I’m confident given enough time Carey will get your car right.

@550 Phil posted:

Maybe people reacted to what I was saying. I was just passing along my personal experience at being the “first” to have something built. Patience is definitely a virtue. Even after the 2 1/2 year wait my car still wasn’t right. But it was a lesson and all Suby cars after that had front radiators. My current 2018 Spyder in my opinion is about as close to Spyder perfection as possible. Greg definitely ended up getting it right. And I’m confident given enough time Carey will get your car right.

going of topic, but "wow?" were the radiators at all efficient in the back?
where were they mounted?

Large radiator with 2 fans mounted on frame directly beneath 2 rear vents. Originally mounted to push air out. Then switched to pull air in. Didn’t matter. Car was fine if you were just cruising or on a leisurely drive. But that’s not why I built the car. Spirited driving with high rpm acceleration would rapidly overheat the car. This is all on Spyder Club .com. Some rich guy from Ft Lauderdale was following my posts and offered to buy the car for what I paid for it. Truck with cashiers check showed up the next day. 2 1/2 year wait and 6 months of ownership. Waited 14 years to order another one. And it’s a keeper.

@Stan Galat posted:

My answer to "how hard can this be?" is always, "hard enough that you want to pay me to do it".

I can pour concrete. I can shingle a roof. I can put up siding. I've tried drywall and paint, but I'm no good at either. I pay for all of it because it's harder than it looks, and I like things to be done well.

All that...but I do most of it myself because I'm actually better at a lot of that than a lot of the guys I've seen doing it for money, and also—damn, it costs how much??

But as I've aged I've come ever so slowly around to Stan's way of thinking.

Very slowly.

Last Tuesday I was awakened by five guys tearing off the neighbor's roof. It surprised me because I had, just the day before, squeezed a dab of roof cement on about 20 exposed nailheads along the ridge of my 8 x 16 shed, having run out of steam after re-shingling half of it in the wake of an unfortunate squirrel nesting incident.

And I knew it was going to rain that afternoon.

So at 7 am, those dudes were just getting started on a whole-ass four-bedroom house, and I exclaimed "oh no," loudly enough that it woke my wife.

IMG_8399

Friends, those pros were done and out by 2:30 pm. House, garage, flashing, vents—the whole nine. And they left the yard clean.

I, meanwhile, managed to finish the second half of the shed roof on Saturday and cap it off by about 3 pm.

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Last edited by edsnova

.

It's just that most of us don't do roofing or concrete much, so are in awe of the skills of those who do.

Through endless repetition, though, we've all learned to do some things efficiently. Human ability to learn motor skills is astounding. A visitor from the planet Gorgon would be amazed at how fast most earthlings can tie a shoelace without even looking.

I remember the first time I went looking for dirt in my IDF idle jets. It must have taken two hours. I used mirrors and flashlights, skinned up some knuckles, lost at least one of those damned green o-rings, and somehow managed to get brake cleaner on my tongue.

Now, I can do all four, shoot cleaner into the carb bodies, keep a conversation about an unrelated topic going, and be done in about 20 minutes. I never even look at where the jets are coming from or returning to.

It's all in the wrist.

.

Its alive!!!

Carey sent me the first pictures of my build. The pictures show the chassis being bonded with the body. The body is right out of the mold and is in a very unfinished state. It is interesting to see what these cars look like starting out. When you see this, you appreciate the end product even more.

Thank-you Carey,

Joel

Body and chassis.1Body and chassis.2Body and chassis.3Body and chassis.4Body and chassis.5Body and chassis.6

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Well you sure have hacked / raped the shyt out of Joel's generous offering of sharing his valuable and cherished experience in a long term project. His likely over $100,000. project has come down to your lame fodder over concrete and roofing projects by others.  Will you soon turn on Arden and beat the crap out of his progress too ?  I sure miss you guys.

Awesome.

Tapping out. Carry on, David.

Lane you are correct the mold is still on it. I never saw an unfinished body, so I was not sure what I was looking at. But now that you mentioned it, and I looked at the pictures again, I can see it in some of the pictures.

So, I will have to wait to see what it actually looks like until after the chassis is bonded to the body and it actually comes out of the mold.

More pictures to come.

Joel

It's now out of the mold.

First pictures of the car and chassis now bonded together.

Carey told me that the front firewall panel still needs to go in and then it will get rough trimmed.

After that Carey will take it to assembly to start to mock up the drivetrain and suspension.

After that the engine will get set out for rebuilding and the body/chassis  will go back to the body shop to wait its turn.

Joel

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