Update on Joel Roth's Beck Super Coupe

Wowsa!!

wow!...soon to be another SUPER COUPE to make my car & others of ours obsolete...but in a totally awesome way..... looking forward to pictures and videos with sound!!

Where are you in the queue, Joel?

Ask him if he can include the ABS and traction control from a 996 as well. You’re going to need it. You’re going to end up with more rear bias than a 911.

Seriously, I’d invest in a Porsche Experience so you can size up the difference between high powered mid-engines vs rear engines Porsches before you invest that kind of money in what will no doubt be a stunning car.

That is, unless you’re familiar with the issues. In that case, “Never mind.”

Sounds like a fantastic car, Joel. If you go for it, treat it respect, just like an early 930. The back end will come around. Cheers!

If the car is built properly, with correct suspension enhancements, it will be a dream to drive.  The rear weight bias can be easily overcome with the proper set up. 

I don't have traction control, nor do I have ABS.  I do have a 3.6 engine from a 1995 993.  Intermeccanica built this car to handle that weight and power, and I am sure Carey will do the same.  Get fat enough tires on the rear, sway bars front and back , a well balanced chassis, and the issue of the back end coming around, pretty well disappears.  It's all about making the car beefy enough to handle the weight and the power.

Obviously, good disc brakes are needed, as is rack and pinion steering.  Maybe Carey can source 911 components for the build, as Henry did with mine.

Enjoy the build, Joel.

Thank-you guys for all your comments.

First, I believe I am #14 in the Que and they are up to 8 or 9.  So mine should start soon.

Second, I will ask Carey about whether he can add ABS and Traction Control from the 911. They source a used 911 for the engine and transmission, so since ABS and Traction Control  are already part of the 911 they may very well be able to include them. Either way I will ask and let you guys known.

Third, for those not familiar with the Beck Super Coupe it is my understanding Carey has extended the body and the wheelbase approximately 2"-3". He uses 2x4 steel tube chassis with 1x2 lateral bracing and a center tunnel. It has a double A frame front suspension with adjustable coil overs. For those of you that know Chuck and have followed their limited releases on the Coupe development, you know that this was a LONG part of the development process and they achieved a PROPER suspension geometry with virtually 0 bump steer. They also use an inverted A-frame trailing arm rear suspension with 4 link and adjustable coil overs. Manual rack and pinion steering. Standard Beck steering column with crush coupler. Standard Beck 4 wheel disc brakes with track brake packages available upon request. (I am requesting it).

So, knowing Carey, the car will be built and set up to handle the weight and power.

Yes, I am very excited and can't wait to get the car. I was not planning on Tracking the car, but I am having them install a roll bar just in case I change my mind.

Now for colors, I am thinking of going with a Graphite Gray or Slate Gray exterior and an Oxblood or English Tan/Saddle interior. What do you think?

Joel

Yeah, what Robert said!  I'm sure you already realize it, but a lot of good points being made above, especially about making sure it will handle predictably and it will stop.  It's gonna be very cool...

Hopefully he can fulfill all your wishes.

Carey is a super builder so if it gets to be like Bob's IM-6 his is a beauty wih full 911 suspension.

300hp is plenty in a 2000 lb car. congrats

I commend you for getting the roll bar.  It also provides a way to mount headrests, although that would restrict access to the rear seat/luggage area if you do so.  You can skip the 4-point harnesses I have if you aren't going to track it.

I seriously doubt that Carey can add ABS and traction control.  The electronics just get awfully complex real fast.  I'm still tweaking the suspension setup on mine, but you probably won't need sway bars.  I have yet to experience noticeable body roll and I am not sure where you'd put them anyway.  These are little cars and things get crowded underneath rather quickly.

I have found some minor issues of the sort Carey and I expected, and have implemented (or am in the process of doing so) solutions that will make their way into production.  The car is evolving quickly from something really special to something really spectacular.

Lane:

Please keep me updated on any issues you find with your car and the fixes or  solutions.

Joel

Bob:

What size wheels and tires are you running front and back?

Any pictures of your car? I would love to see it.

Joel

Will do, Joel.

@Joel Roth @Bob: IM S6

Bob will have to give you the specs on his tires, but here's a video of his build:

https://youtu.be/JtWj9LEKELc

Thanks for making that video, Gordon.

Joel.  Since the video, I have changed the wheels to custom made Fuch lookalikes.  8" rear, 6" front.

Tires are  205/50-17 front,  225/45-17 rear.

Here are some shots.  With the 911 components, the car is a blast to drive.

Wow, Bob's car is beautiful. Would love to see it one day in person.

Joel

I am using a lot of the same design elements. But my car will be a little more Outlaw looking. Deleted front and rear bumpers. I am going with Fuchs replicas as well, Black centers with polished rims, front Driving lights and Fog lights, Stone guards on the headlights, hood straps, center mount gas filler and cap, as well as the Raydot mirrors and Bee Hive Taillights and twin center mounted exhaust. Also installing a Roll bar with an X brace if they can fit it in.

Joel

Sounds sweet.  That should be a fantastic looking build. 

One thing I should have put on mine was external engine lid hinges.

I have seen them on some of the Emory Outlaw builds.  Just a little extra for the look.

Visible hinges are ok if you need or want to access the engine easier, but really fit the outlaw look coupes like Emory cars.
Bob you also have LEd beehives from CuLayered I think they are a great LED company to deal with.

Joel the option list will grow if we have our way here . The list members can help you spend your money

More to the point I wish I had been part of the list earlier As I might have had a more complete build as there is always something  you don’t think about or you think you won’t need at the moment but when you try it or see it in someone else’s car you realize I should of … that is why we refer to it as the madness as you continue to upgrade it seems forever. Have fun

If you're going for Raydyots make sure you get the convex mirrors, at least on the passenger side.  The field of view is rather small and the convex really helps.  If you plan to mount them forward as I did, get the convex on both sides.

Also, it's worth it to get all LED lights, particularly if you're running bee hives in back.

The one other thing I really need and want is a comfortable seat and a nice looking interior/dash.

The standard speedster seats are not comfortable. In the Mid-engine Coupe there is very limited amount of room so Carey suggested using the seats from the 904 which are nicer and more comfortable. But now that we are going with a rear engine mount I was thinking that maybe we can use an early 911 sport seats that is a little bigger and more comfortable but will not look too modern and out of place. Maybe with gromets as well. I

I also picked out a set of traditional black faced with white numbers and red tipped indicators and polished bezel gauges from Speedhut. For the main dash I picked 3  4" gauges. Center Tach, 180 MPH Speedo on the Left, and a Quad gauge with fuel/volts/water temp and oil pressure (that how they make it). Then in the center dash I am going to mount the A/C controls on top centered, and below that two gauges 2 5/8" a clock and oil temp gauge and the radio below.

The other option was to use just the Tach and Speedo left and right of the steering wheel and instead of the quad gauge go with all individual gauges. Maybe mount the fuel gauge in between the Speedo and Tach and in the center a row of 3 2 1/16" gauges of water temp/oil temp/oil pressure and below the radio in a separate center stack (like what they had in the 914) have the volts/clock and amps.

while waiting U can buy some type Porsche, drive it till urs is ready and sell the Por, they rarely go down in value..

I have a 2020 Jaguar F-Type now. I was going to wait until I get the Porsche and then sell it.

Niiiiiice!  Whadaya want for it?

Lane:

I thought you would like it. I love the color. It called Ultra Blue.  But this is why I do not want my Porsche 356 Super Coupe to be Blue as well.

Joel

OK everyone, I spoke to Carey and he indicated that ABS and Traction Control are not doable and if they were they would be cost prohibitive. So take that out of your thought process.

Now as far as the rear weight bias is concerned, Carey told me that while this car is not mid-engine, and is rear engine, the engine and transmission are more forward than in a traditional rear engine application. So, the rear engine effect is not as great as a traditional rear engine location. Plus, Carey indicated they compensate for the weight and rear engine location by increasing the shock dampening and spring rates. The car should handle very similar to the mid engine location but with a lot more power 300-320 HP plus or minus.

Joel

I'm droolin' here, Joel.

As for the Jag, let me know when you're ready to sell and what you want for it.  I am price sensitive, but that's on my list of possible replacements for the BMW.

Reading the build list, I just got a

@Joel Roth posted:

OK everyone, I spoke to Carey and he indicated that ABS and Traction Control are not doable and if they were they would be cost prohibitive. So take that out of your thought process.

Joel

I’m sorry Joel, was was being facetious when I suggested that. I guess my “You kids get off my lawn” old-guy-itis was coming out.

Full disclosure: I’m a mid-engine guy. Yes, there are millions of things you can do to make a rear-engined car handle better. Porsche racers have been doing it for decades. But they’ll never be better than a mid-engined car with close to a 50/50 weight balance.

I’d venture a guess that Danny’s Spyder passes (and pisses off) a lot of guys in $100K+ 911s on a track day.

Fwiw, after battling the laws of physics for 75 years, even Porsche saw the light: the newest 911 RSRs are now mid-engined.

I’m sure Carey will build you a fantastic car, it’s what he does. But IMO, the mid engine is 90% of the attraction of Super Coupe. But I don’t have a vote.

These are the seats I want to use, but in Oxblood or Saddle Tan to match the rest of the interior depending on which color I chose. They are the copies of the early Porsche Sport Seats.

The wheels are copies of Fuchs.

The Paint color is Porsche Graphite Gray

These are the wheels:

Exterior color Graphite Gray

@dlearl476 posted:

I’d venture a guess that Danny’s Spyder passes (and pisses off) a lot of guys in $100K+ 911s on a track day.

Yeah, I did that at Lime Rock with street touring tires with a 275 pound instructor. Thank goodness LRP is all right turns except one...

Now, I drive my old sub 20k Cayman S and spank some of the new cars hard(hint: it's not the car that is lacking).

@Bob: IM S6 Your car is simply sublime!

@Joel Roth You're making good choices.

I am not planning on Tracking or Racing the car. I am sure the mid-engine version will handle better all things being equal.

However, for me the attraction to the Beck Super Coupe was not so much the mid-engine layout but rather the overall look of the car and the fact that it was not being built on a shortened VW Bug chassis/pan. It has  a custom built square tube chassis and  a double A frame front suspension with adjustable coil overs and an inverted A-frame trailing arm rear suspension with 4 link and adjustable coil overs.

But most important to me was the Company itself and the people who are building my car. Beck and Carey have a great reputation. They build great cars. They  bend over backwards to accommodate their customers. You ask them something and they give you a straight answer.

I asked them to build me a Super Coupe with a Porsche engine and transmission and they told me they could do it. First, we were going to use a Boxster 3.2 S engine and a 5 speed transmission in the mid-engine version. Initially, we ran into some "problems" with getting an ECU that would work because they had to bypass the immobilizer. It took a lot of digging but they were able to do it. Someone else would have just said it can't be done. Not Carey.

When Carey told me about a 1-off rear engine version they were building for another customer and offered to build one for me but with a Porsche engine and transmission, I switched for the added legroom and interior space (I am 6'2"). At the same time, without me even asking Carey told me that because of the added room by moving the engine to the rear they could use a Porsche 911 engine (996) and the 6 speed transmission.

Plus, I have to admit that I actually like the overall look of the rear engine car better with the  rear seats and with the rear engine. Now, when you open the engine lid you actually see an engine, and in my car it will be a Porsche 911 motor.

They are a class act. The best.

Joel

You do you and don’t worry about anybody else.  It’s going to be a spectacular car.and at 6’ 2” you would not be comfortable in a mid-engine Coupe.

Interior space and legroom in the mid engine Super Coupe was always a concern of mine. That was why I wanted to come up to Charleston for a "test fit" in your car. But when Carey told me that the customer they were building the rear engine car for was 6'3" and they had to move the seat forward, I switched immediately.

Don't get me wrong the mid engine Super Coupe is a great car. I love mid engine cars. But for me the rear engine Super Coupe is much better. After all, whatever car you buy you have to fit in it and be comfortable, otherwise what's the point?

@Joel Roth posted:

Interior space and legroom in the mid engine Super Coupe was always a concern of mine. That was why I wanted to come up to Charleston for a "test fit" in your car. But when Carey told me that the customer they were building the rear engine car for was 6'3" and they had to move the seat forward, I switched immediately.

Don't get me wrong the mid engine Super Coupe is a great car. I love mid engine cars. But for me the rear engine Super Coupe is much better. After all, whatever car you buy you have to fit in it and be comfortable, otherwise what's the point?

^ That. All day long, that.

Your car is going to be fantastic.

my 17P is graphite blue metallic(2017-18) its gorgeous in the right light(thats not my car:{)

@barncobob posted:

my 17P is graphite blue metallic(2017-18) its gorgeous in the right light(thats not my car:{)

I almost didn't open the picture, Bob, I'm so over the "blue phase" (apologies to those in the middle of it).

But that is a fantastic color. Super serious. Very, very German. I would get my car painted that color, and I don't even like blue.

It's that cool.

F A N T A S T I C.

The Graphite Blue Metallic looks beautiful as well. Who is the cute little guy in your picture?

There were two other Gray's that I saw that I also liked. One was Slate Gray (on the 356) and the other was called Nardo Gray on the 911 (it's actually an Audi color):

@Joel Roth - I've only ever seen one Slate Gray 356, but it was fantastic - especially with an Oxblood interior. If I ever build another (and I'd like to), that'll be the combination I choose.

I love Slate Grey. Actually, all greys on Porsches. I think it’s an elegant color.

Back in 2005 or so, I used some FF miles to go to Indy, watch F1 qualifying, buy some swag, then fly home. As I was waiting to cross  the road heading back to the track from the unofficial swag vendors, a slate grey 911 passed by. Looked familiar.

A couple of weeks later my suspicions were confirmed when I saw Todd McQueen on a program talking about his dad’s cars. It was this Slate Grey 911 from Le Mans, with Todd driving.

@Joel Roth posted:

Interior space and legroom in the mid engine Super Coupe was always a concern of mine. That was why I wanted to come up to Charleston for a "test fit" in your car. But when Carey told me that the customer they were building the rear engine car for was 6'3" and they had to move the seat forward, I switched immediately.

Don't get me wrong the mid engine Super Coupe is a great car. I love mid engine cars. But for me the rear engine Super Coupe is much better. After all, whatever car you buy you have to fit in it and be comfortable, otherwise what's the point?

I think you should also consider body styles as you can be 6'4" and have a short body and fit in the car, in any seat really,  but with you need a longer leg area but, if you tall in the torso you may not be able to get in the car unless you go head first... ask me how I have to get into a speedster with the top up, and hence I own a roadster, he seat is as low as it can go and I have Recaro seats rather than roadster or speedster seats.  Just confirming that fitting my body in my IM roadster build was imperative.  My first IM had a roadster seat that were low in my back.

@Joel Roth posted:

Exterior color Graphite Gray

I find the classic colours are pretty awesome, on a 356, so are your seat choices and how can you not like fuchs.  I hope you can try the seats on for fit.  

A friend's slate gray 356C cabriolet.  Spectacular!

"Now, when you open the engine lid you actually see an engine, and in my car it will be a Porsche 911 motor."

It's a nice feeling...1995 993 3.6.  Looks ugly, but I don't drive with the lid up. 

@Bob: IM S6  Isn't your car an IM Super 6   or Super 6 Speedster?    

Nothing super, Ray.  Just a nicely put together speedster by Intermeccanica. 

And I am fortunate enough to own it...

No, it is anything but ugly. It is beautiful. You should powder coat or paint  the fan shroud and air intakes in a color that will "pop" and look great.

The more I see the Gray and Oxblood combination the more I like it. But I am leaning more toward the Graphite Gray rather than the Slate Gray because I think the Slate Gray may be a little too dark.

nardo grey is killer,,,Chalk is also a P color that is gorgeous

dog is GUS..borderdoodle,moms a border collie and dad is a poodle,,hes a sweetheart

that graphite grey Por is a 2014 50th anniversary special color

@Bob: IM S6 posted:

Nothing super, Ray.  Just a nicely put together speedster by Intermeccanica. 

And I am fortunate enough to own it...

I think Ray wants to call a "Super" an IM with the pie-cut widened rear fenders.

Super pie cut  

From a car offering the IM-6 certainly has been the max offering in IM's écurie hoping the Global warming push to cut all gaz and oil comes to some reasonableness and allows us to continue with IC the others can choose E but market change by fiat is not my favourite as it becomes more religious than based on fact.

This is going to be a great car, Joel!  I like all the Porsche grays and almost went with the Graphite Grey, but chose Fashion Grey instead. I didn't want a metallic this time. Here's a shot right out of paint.

Me too. I like all the Gray colors. Yours looks very nice. I see it has a single rear grill, Bee Hives and what looks like a Pre-A dash. What year is it?

@Joel Roth posted:

No, it is anything but ugly. It is beautiful. You should powder coat or paint  the fan shroud and air intakes in a color that will "pop" and look great.

That's on list of things to do.  Just waiting for the shop to finish their paint booth.

@JMM (Michael) posted:

This is going to be a great car, Joel!  I like all the Porsche grays and almost went with the Graphite Grey, but chose Fashion Grey instead. I didn't want a metallic this time. Here's a shot right out of paint.

Dude.

@Joel Roth posted:

Me too. I like all the Gray colors. Yours looks very nice. I see it has a single rear grill, Bee Hives and what looks like a Pre-A dash. What year is it?

It a Vintage Motorcars Pre-A coupe, so a '54-'55 copy.  Also rear engined like yours, but with a 2.5L Subaru, and pan based (IRS rear). I'm only 6' and thin enough to slide through a mail slot, so I'm not worried about fitting in it. Still in progress, but moving toward completion.

Joel has inspired me.  I've got a message in to Carey.  Going to see if he can stuff a watercooled Porsche flat 6 in my convertible D.  Would have to be rear engine.   BTW.  I've always loved fashion grey.  Might have to rethink my color choice.  Still have 2 years to think about it.

@JMM (Michael) posted:

It a Vintage Motorcars Pre-A coupe, so a '54-'55 copy.  Also rear engined like yours, but with a 2.5L Subaru, and pan based (IRS rear). I'm only 6' and thin enough to slide through a mail slot, so I'm not worried about fitting in it. Still in progress, but moving toward completion.

Most of us have to really work on it to get slim  

@550 Phil  why not it is the ultimate aircooled.  

Quick reply from Carey.  A flat 6 cannot be stuffed into a speedster or ConvD.  Completely different chassis and rear suspension from the Super Coupe.  So if you want to ride with the big dogs you need a Super Coupe.  I know that in order to stuff a flat 6 into an IM, Henry had to do significant modifications to the speedster pushing the engine forward in the chassis.  This helped with handing but created drastic CV joint angles resulting in the car to eat through CV boots.  BTW this also happened to my IM which had a very tall VW/Audi 2.0 engine resulting in extreme CV joint angles.  The Type 1, Type 4 and suby cars have very neutral CV joint angles and do not eat CV boots.

Joel you might want to ask Carey if your car will require exaggerated CV joint angles.  Lots of money to change these boots if you don't do it yourself.

Might have to look into getting more performance out of the 2.5 Suby.  I absolutely will not turbo charge.  I'm so tired of turbo lag.

Sorry to hear you can't get a flat six in your car, Phil.  Yes, the axle angle is severe, and boots don't always last that long, but the horsepower and the torque and the exhaust sound makes it all worthwhile... 

@550 Phil posted:

Quick reply from Carey.  A flat 6 cannot be stuffed into a speedster or ConvD.  Completely different chassis and rear suspension from the Super Coupe.  So if you want to ride with the big dogs you need a Super Coupe.  I know that in order to stuff a flat 6 into an IM, Henry had to do significant modifications to the speedster pushing the engine forward in the chassis.  This helped with handing but created drastic CV joint angles resulting in the car to eat through CV boots.  BTW this also happened to my IM which had a very tall VW/Audi 2.0 engine resulting in extreme CV joint angles.  The Type 1, Type 4 and suby cars have very neutral CV joint angles and do not eat CV boots.

Joel you might want to ask Carey if your car will require exaggerated CV joint angles.  Lots of money to change these boots if you don't do it yourself.

Might have to look into getting more performance out of the 2.5 Suby.  I absolutely will not turbo charge.  I'm so tired of turbo lag.

Phil, I am completely with you as far as turbo lag is concerned, it is just plain no fun to have yourself hurled forward when you hit the turbo it takes away completely from the car's driving feel.  I think what IM does on the 6 is the max one could do but then I don't live with it Dave Mitchell said to me, the boots was part of the maintenance and he would consider a Type IV monster instead with a 915 tranny if you did not want to change boots. @Dave Mitchell

I’d did say that years ago. That said for the shear joy of having a 3.0 and a 915 gearbox all Porsche suspension and steering the IM-6 is the best reproduction speedster one can own.

IMHO must folks want all the creature comforts if their BMW or other daily driver in a Speedster or the new “Super Coupe” and I ask why? Henry nicknamed my Speedster “The Beast” as it was simple. The extra room in the trunk was amazing! You can’t get that if you run watercooled and have AC.

Its all about personal preference. Mine was keep it simple…it’s fun toy not a daily driver!

Phil,

You don't need to suffer from turbo lag with a turbo Subi engine.  There are many fixes, from tuning, a turbo blanket, Cobb Access port, larger up/down pipe, etc.  Most competent Subi tuners can do the mods in their sleep.  If you took a ride in one, you'd be a convert.  You may want to check a Subi tuner near you.

I would agree that even with the annoyance of replacing the CV boots every once in a while the IM6 is the best 356 replica in the would right now.  Heck I even tried to buy a used one but a former member swooped in and got it.  If Carey can really stuff a water cooled flat 6 into a super coupe this should be real competition to the IM6.  True the Super Coupe 6 will lose frunk space because of the radiator but I think it will be a player and the big dog to challenge the IM6.  I might even have to sell the farm and switch waiting lists for a SC6.

IMHO water cooling not only looses space but complicates any build. Using a flat 6 911 engine while you have an issue with a dry sump tank you gain a lot. SSI heat exchangers will give you more heat than you need it want. I like the idea of Cary’s Coupe it’s a great looking car.

Its just one mans opinion. Why complicate the build. Yes a Subaru engine is cheap but those costs are mitigated when you add water cooling not to mention added weight.

I'm sure @Joel Roth can answer more definitively, but I believe that Carey uses a water-cooled 911 engine.

Yes, Carey is using a water cooled 911 motor out of a 996. 3.4 L or 3.6 L 300-340 HP depending on what you get and how you want it rebuilt. I think he could use an earlier 911 air-cooled motor if you wanted that. However, my understanding as to why he is using the water cooled 911 motor is because the car is already set up for the water-cooled Subaru 2.5 motor. Also, if you want AC, which I do and I am sure most of the other people who are buying this car also want, it is much better to run AC off a water- cooled motor.

As far as the CV Boots are concerned, I asked him about this and he said it would not be a problem.

Believe it or not the cost of the Porsche engine/transmission vs. the Subaru is about the same. Carey told me that the cost of buying the donor cars is about the same.

Plus, for me, I rather have the Porsche engine/transmission in my car over a Subaru. Nothing wrong with the Subaru. Just personal preference.

In the replica market there has been a movement to water cooling.  Obviously it adds reliability and power.  But it also saves build costs.  Suby is much cheaper than a power equivalent Type 4 or even Type 1.  Can't imagine how expensive a late 90s air/oil cooled 911 flat 6 would be now.  I would love to build a nice Type 4 with the 44 Dellortos I've been saving for 25 years but in reality I'll probably submit to the reliability and economy of the Suby EJ.

I actually love the idea of a watercooled flat 6 in a Super Coupe.  Its the ultimate replica progression.  Its more blasphemy.  And we clown car owners love blasphemy.  Emory would never do it.  He would spend 4 times as much chopping 2 cylinders off a 911 oil cooled engine to make 200 hp.  The clown car builder justs takes a 300 hp modern water cooled flat 6 and crams it into a 2000 lb Super Coupe.  I love it.  God bless the clown car.

"God bless the clown car."

Preach it, Reverend!!!

@550 Phil posted:

I would love to build a nice Type 4 with the 44 Dellortos

They'd be 45s, but yeah - that'd be pretty close to the ultimate.

I've already had my 3 Speedster wishes, and I'm (mostly) content to own and operate the worlds most overengineered T1 car...

but some days when I think about how somebody smarter would have done it, I always end up back at an enormous, 4" bore injected, T4.

The Subaru EJ-33 is 230 hp with the factory ECU, but they haven't been made since the early 1990s.

The EZ30 came up in 1999 and was 220hp. Later they made a 3.6 liter version called the EZ36 which had 260 hp. These last two engines have variable valve timing.

The Subaru engines are pretty short and should fit where a 4 goes. I know for a fact the EJ33 fits in a Vanagon engine bay(designed for a 4 cylinder watercooled) with no problem at all. I don't think the EZ series is any longer than the EJ33.

I'm sure they're ALL cheaper than the Porsche engines. Honestly, it's a replica. Does it really matter what brand engine you use?

Stan: Overengineered? Not me! Not you!

It only matters to the person building the car. Use whatever you want. For me, I wanted a Porsche motor and trany.

Stan if I really thought I could take those Dellortos and build an engine with half the reliability of my current suby car I'd do it.  My Spyder is 150 miles from my primary house.  Sometimes I don't drive the car for months at a time.  All I do is keep the battery on a trickle charger.  Without fail, I turn the key, hit the starter button and the Suby fires up.  You and Danny...and many others are mechanics.  I am not.  You and Danny would never be happy with a Subaru.  Its too easy.  There is no challenge.  You guys are artists.  Me I just want to drive.  That's why a water cooled 911 with an ECU and EFI really appeals to me.  A clown car with a real Porsche powerplant with 300hp.  All I can say is SWEET!

@DannyP posted:

The Subaru EJ-33 is 230 hp with the factory ECU, but they haven't been made since the early 1990s.

The EZ30 came up in 1999 and was 220hp. Later they made a 3.6 liter version called the EZ36 which had 260 hp. These last two engines have variable valve timing.

The Subaru engines are pretty short and should fit where a 4 goes. I know for a fact the EJ33 fits in a Vanagon engine bay(designed for a 4 cylinder watercooled) with no problem at all. I don't think the EZ series is any longer than the EJ33.

I'm sure they're ALL cheaper than the Porsche engines. Honestly, it's a replica. Does it really matter what brand engine you use?

Stan: Overengineered? Not me! Not you!

The main thing with Special Edition is the ECU mapping.  They use the ECU from a 2007 2.5 EJ Subaru engine.  So that year range (approximately) is the only Subaru engine they use.  I myself would love to use a different Subaru engine, maybe a turbo, but at this time its just not any option.  Carey uses the 1st generation watercooled 911 engine (1999-2003?) because they have figured out the ECU mapping.  Carey can correct me if I'm wrong and I apologize if I have said something incorrect or misstep.  The ECU setup and making it work with the radio, A/C etc.  is the big challenge.  I'm sure my explanation is elementary but that is my limited understanding.

I may have said too much but I want to clarify.  All engines that SE uses are as good as new.  They have new short blocks directly from Subaru with completely rebuilt heads.  I'm sure the 911 engines they use (I'm assuming these are 996) are completely rebuilt with all of the IMS bearing problems sorted. 

@550 Phil posted:

Stan if I really thought I could take those Dellortos and build an engine with half the reliability of my current suby car I'd do it.  My Spyder is 150 miles from my primary house.  Sometimes I don't drive the car for months at a time.  All I do is keep the battery on a trickle charger.  Without fail, I turn the key, hit the starter button and the Suby fires up.  You and Danny...and many others are mechanics.  I am not.  You and Danny would never be happy with a Subaru.  Its too easy.  There is no challenge.  You guys are artists.  Me I just want to drive.  That's why a water cooled 911 with an ECU and EFI really appeals to me.  A clown car with a real Porsche powerplant with 300hp.  All I can say is SWEET!

While I am somewhat mechanically inclined, I’m far from being a “mechanic.” Likewise, my Spyder sits for months at a time. My CB T1 motor has never let me down. My only problem ever has been running out of gas. (Faulty fuel gauge I’m too lazy to fix. A 2.5 gal can is my “reserve.”)

@Joel Roth posted:

It only matters to the person building the car. Use whatever you want. For me, I wanted a Porsche motor and trany.

U said U had a Carrera 4S,,,what more could U ask for,,I had an 06 and it was killer...I dont get it

I think what Joel is saying that he doesn’t want to do a Porsche replica without a Porsche engine and tranny. Obviously it doesn’t really make any sense. It’s still a replica aka clown car. But it’s ok. It’s just madness. And that’s what this site is all about. And I think I’m starting to agree. P replica with a P engine. That’s the ultimate. Go Joel. I think I’ve drank the koolaid. YES!  

@barncobob posted:

U said U had a Carrera 4S,,,what more could U ask for,,I had an 06 and it was killer...I dont get it

I guess it's ME that doesn't get it.

This is a 356 replica site. We like 356 replicas - it's why we're here. I guess I'm unclear what there is to "get" about wanting one with a Porsche engine. Everybody seems to "get" a replica with a Subaru engine.

If he wanted another Carrera 4S, he'd probably just buy another Carrera 4S. What he wants is something he can't get somewhere else. No argument can be made for it, other than that it's cool.

Over on BaT, there's a guy selling a 2012 Mustang with a bazillion dollars worth of metalwork done to make it look like a '69 Mustang. Lots of guys poo-poo that too, but the heart wants what the heart wants.

@550 Phil posted:

The main thing with Special Edition is the ECU mapping.  They use the ECU from a 2007 2.5 EJ Subaru engine.  So that year range (approximately) is the only Subaru engine they use.  I myself would love to use a different Subaru engine, maybe a turbo, but at this time its just not any option.  Carey uses the 1st generation watercooled 911 engine (1999-2003?) because they have figured out the ECU mapping.  Carey can correct me if I'm wrong and I apologize if I have said something incorrect or misstep.  The ECU setup and making it work with the radio, A/C etc.  is the big challenge.  I'm sure my explanation is elementary but that is my limited understanding.

I am aware of what ECUs Carey uses and why.

@Joel Roth I certainly hope you don't think I was picking on your engine choice. I applaud the use of whatever tickles your fancy. I certainly lean toward a flat German engine, air or watercooled, with whatever cylinder count you like.

I originally got a Spyder because I fell in love with the shape. I watched my buddies rebuild all manner of rusty steel 911s. I even had one for a while. But building a replica Spyder was awesome, it won't rust and every hole was drilled by me.

Anyway, my friend Jim says that I'm slowly building a 911...Fan and alternator, 4 wheel disks, dry sump, EFI. And soon, rack and pinion.

This is a site for people to express their thoughts, ideas and opinions. I take no offense at anyone doing that whether they agree or disagree with my choices, it's OK.

I did have a 4 S and loved it. But I sold it to get something more "practical" and bought a Mercedes CLS 550. I traded that in and now I have a Jaguar F-Type Coupe in Ultra Blue (Sort of like Mexico Blue in Porsche). I thought about buying a 911 Turbo. I also thought about buying a "real" 356. I loved the 356 Outlaw look and always wanted one. But a "real" one would not have the performance I was looking for. So, I decided to build a 356 "Replica" exactly how I wanted it. To me that meant having a Porsche engine and transmission.

Now you can question why if it's just a "Replica". And that's a fair question. However, to me I don't think of this car as a "Replica". I think of it as the 356 Outlaw I always wanted. It's my 356 Outlaw built how I want it. You don't have to agree with it, but it's what I want.

Now when it's done and you see it, then you can tell me if you like it or not and what you would do if it were your car and we can debate the pros and cons of the choices I made for my car. But I will tell you all now, it will be a bad ass and that's what I want.

@Joel Roth posted:

So, I decided to build a 356 "Replica" exactly how I wanted it.

I totally agree with your approach, Joel. I think it's hard for most people to develop a solid vision of what they want in a replica, and for some folks, their vision changes over time.

Sounds like you're on the right track to building exactly what you want!

"I totally agree with your approach, Joel. I think it's hard for most people to develop a solid vision of what they want in a replica, and for some folks, their vision changes over time."

You're right, @Michael Pickett.  It took me three previous IMs to finally get the one I wanted.

The issue was I didn't really know what I wanted at the start.

Joel seems to know exactly what he wants.

Mike, I love your car. It looks very similar to what I am doing. Of course, mine is a Coupe, but yours is a similar Silver exterior color. I am going with GT Silver Metalic and Black leather interior. Which Silver color is it? You have a mild Outlaw look: no bumpers, driving lights, and Fuchs. Mine will be a little more Outlaw look: no bumpers, driving lights and fog lights, no trunk handle, center mount fuel cap, stone guards on headlights, beehive taillights, dual stainless steel center exhaust with headers, roll bar, Monte Carlo style seats with grommets, black and white 911 style gauges, Fuchs and a few other items ...

What could be better, you have a Speedster in paradise?

The same for you Bob. Your car is something special as well.

For all you guys with Intermeccanica's, what are the main differences between an Intermeccanica and a Beck Super Coupe?

I don't have time to go through a "reply" to all of the quandaries, but I'll shotgun some of the answers here:

We do a lot of aircooled 6 cylinder builds, almost exclusively in our 904GTS.  A good 993 donor motor today will run you $25-30K BEFORE being rebuilt.  This is the reason why we've been prototyping 986 and 996 drivetrains in a few different packages.

We do turbo Suby builds, probably 1 a year.  I've done them in everything but a coupe (yet). I don't like them as much as an NA build, simply due to the complications they add and the potential risks you run due to some of these complications.  There are many, but the biggest in my opinion, is the lack of airflow for a simple intercooler system.  Thus, it becomes a very complicated WAIC system (water to air intercooler for those who don't know).  The lifespan of your motor is heavily reliant on the functionality of this WAIC system and the loss of a coolant pump to this system is certain death for the motor in short order.

Yes, our plan with the M96 cars is at a minimum a full rebuild with IMS solution installed.  Joels will be done by LN Engineering directly.  A donor Boxster and a donor Subaru are about the same price.  The rebuild of an M96 is slightly more.  A full custom build of an M96 is exponentially more.  Doing a 996 (rear engine) will be slightly more expensive.  The donor car is more expensive for sure, but the rest of the build/rebuild will be about the same.  

CV angle in our 904 is the same as stock 911 and by measurement we'll be able to achieve this in the coupe.  If for some reason we have to deviate, I am very familiar with both high angle CVs as well as zero clearance CV boots.  All of which are available for Porsche race cars.

The great thing about a replica is that you can do whatever YOU want to it and you're not devaluing an original, plus you have a LOT more flexibility to customize.  I have a friend who commissioned a 993 powered original 356C coupe and he's well over $300K into the project, not including the cost of the "donor" car.  In addition, I'd guesstimate that 40% of the "chassis" (unibody) of the original car had to be cut away to make it happen.  No turning back and not much of a "real" 356 valuation left, other than the fact he has an original Porsche VIN and title.

@Joel Roth posted:

The same for you Bob. Your car is something special as well.

For all you guys with Intermeccanica's, what are the main differences between an Intermeccanica and a Beck Super Coupe?

Well, as I've never driven a Beck Super Coupe, I can't really say that much.  Carey makes a good car, and I have my opinions on Henry's builds, all super positive, of course.  Both makers have a long, solid history of quality products.  Henry does not built a coupe, so I think that is one major difference.

'nuff said from me.  I'm sure others may/will chime in.

I can say I would not trade my IM6 for any other make.

Thanks Carey, for chiming in.

@Joel Roth posted:

Thanks Carey, for chiming in.

Yeah, second that.

@Joel Roth, thanks, I shot it with Porsche Arctic Silver - 92U.

@chines1, we really appreciate your time responding to discussions in this community. I totally agree with your worries about water-to-air. I've built them, but never been happy with them.

If you've got the space, air-to-air has been much more reliable and of course NA has been the safest.

On our little cars, a 986/996 powerplant should be enough for most uses.

Thanks again!

had Arctic silver on my 06 Por,,very easy to keep clean, but i got tired of silver

"On our little cars, a 986/996 powerplant should be enough for most uses."

My experience with the Coupe indicates that a NA Subaru is plenty for most uses.

@Bob: IM S6 posted:

Well, as I've never driven a Beck Super Coupe, I can't really say that much.  Carey makes a good car, and I have my opinions on Henry's builds, all super positive, of course.  Both makers have a long, solid history of quality products.  Henry does not built a coupe, so I think that is one major difference.

'nuff said from me.  I'm sure others may/will chime in.

I can say I would not trade my IM6 for any other make.

I like this discussion because it points out that a true custom build requires a whole life experience to come together in your likes, dislikes culminating to a plan of action for a custom bespoked automobile.  We all know we are in the Duplication/Replica realms but it becomes your own creation, "Restomod" it may take you more than one try to get it "more right" or flush out the errors but as time goes on you will get closer to realizing what you want.  I wanted a coupe originally but at the time Henry was not building one and I did not know Carey, nor could we north of 49thparallel dwellers easily access the USA products.  At least not when I was building mine, so I had to buy pretty much from IM to get an experienced builder, and I am very happy with my car.

"For all you guys with Intermeccanica's, what are the main differences between an Intermeccanica and a Beck Super Coupe?"

IM's can be built with a 911 full front end and rear suspension with 3.6L 6cyl.

My car was the first full subie built by Henry.  A 4cyl 2.5L EJ, N/A  5 speed R&P reversed tranny and it has dual rads behind each light.  This, with the new gas tank we designed enabled the full front of the car to be used as a full larger trunk @Dave Mitchell.  BTW, My rear suspension is a Type I trailing arm and for those guys who must, an early 944  Essentially,  IM builds a beam base model to full 911 using  P infrastructure essentially.

The SCoupe is for sure a new complete engineering accomplishment for Carey and his guys  and a modern suspension which will allow them do offer I would think a more consistent platform for their builds.  I am following the evolotion of their cars with interest but as of yet I have not driven one

I agree that having Carey comment on the forum, is certainly adding tremendously to this forum !  

Joel hope this helps to clarify our northern resident builder, and best of luck working up your build sheet for your car.  

Ray

P.S. Next year in Carlisle we should have a Special Edition Manufacturer's award given to Carey for all his generous support of our hobby !  

@Stan Galat posted:

I guess it's ME that doesn't get it.

This is a 356 replica site. We like 356 replicas - it's why we're here. I guess I'm unclear what there is to "get" about wanting one with a Porsche engine. Everybody seems to "get" a replica with a Subaru engine.

If he wanted another Carrera 4S, he'd probably just buy another Carrera 4S. What he wants is something he can't get somewhere else. No argument can be made for it, other than that it's cool.

Over on BaT, there's a guy selling a 2012 Mustang with a bazillion dollars worth of metalwork done to make it look like a '69 Mustang. Lots of guys poo-poo that too, but the heart wants what the heart wants.

It seems obvious to me that the 911 shape is nice but the newer cars are just not visceral enough nor do they eclipse the 356 shape.  

Maybe Boring is the right term at least that is what comes to mind for me as I went to buy a new one and well walked out disappointed.  Quoting Jay: ..."Click click click and your doing 100mph, what is the fun in that"  

A friend who has a lot of supercars, tracks them... finally got a helicopter

Joel wrote: "Now when it's done and you see it, then you can tell me if you like it or not and what you would do if it were your car and we can debate the pros and cons of the choices I made for my car. But I will tell you all now, it will be a bad ass and that's what I want."

@Joel Roth My only suggestion is something you're already doing:

You be you.  

When I was building my Speedster way back in the 1990's this forum didn't exist.  All I found was an email list with people from the New jersey Replicar Club and another few guys from the Philadelphia and DC area who were building all sorts of replica cars (many Fierro based) and I used them for guidance on the mechanical stuff (I had the CMC build manual as a guide, too).

My older brother's friends all had 356s in the mid-late 1960's.  Mostly sleepers - Cars that looked ordinary with engines way beyond super 90s and a couple of modified 4-cams in a '62 and '63 coupe.  Everyone in that group added fog/driving light combos, enhanced suspensions, better brakes, better seats and on and on, but few changes to the outside.  

When I was building mine, THAT is what I had in mind, so that's how it has turned out.  I knew I wanted a 356 Hot rod (I come from a flathead Hot Rod background) and was cheap enough that the shaved hood handle and deleted bumpers and emblems just made $$ sense.  

I didn't have the background noise of social media people telling me to do it this way or that way so I did it MY way and I love it.  

I used (gasp!)  Pearlescent Metallic paint - and cream white, even - from an Audi!  

I used (Gasp!) bucket seats out of Chrysler LeBaron (They won't even fit!)  

I run (GASP!) 1-1/4" thick wheel spacer adapters! (They're gonna wreck your wheel bearings!)  

I installed an antique VW Gas heater (It's gonna go up in flames!)  

None of that stuff happened and the car reflects my idea of how it should look.

Three of my brother's old friends have seen and driven my car and all of them said I more than nailed it, especially on the performance end.  They have all had Porsches since the '60's and one was the service manager at Al Alden's Porsche/Audi in White River Junction, Vermont for 36 years so I value his input.  He loves it.

So it doesn't matter what I/we think til it's done and, even then, it's your car.

So build us something interesting with your twists on it.  I'm sure it's gonna blow our sox off!  Build something "Bad-Ass" like mine and MUSBJIM's and a growing number of others and you'll be part of the "Bad-Ass Club", too.

@DannyP posted:

The Subaru EJ-33 is 230 hp with the factory ECU, but they haven't been made since the early 1990s.

The EZ30 came up in 1999 and was 220hp. Later they made a 3.6 liter version called the EZ36 which had 260 hp. These last two engines have variable valve timing.

The Subaru engines are pretty short and should fit where a 4 goes. I know for a fact the EJ33 fits in a Vanagon engine bay(designed for a 4 cylinder watercooled) with no problem at all. I don't think the EZ series is any longer than the EJ33.

I'm sure they're ALL cheaper than the Porsche engines. Honestly, it's a replica. Does it really matter what brand engine you use?

Stan: Overengineered? Not me! Not you!

I was thinking of doing an EZ-30 or EZ-33 instead of the 4cyl when I was building, as I did not want a turbo 4cyl,  but IM was relunctant at the time.  

It might have been a good way to get more torque and hp NA.  

BTW Last time I checked, it was at most 2inch wider and 2 inch longer but slightly higher...  the 3.0 was 58lbs more, minus the turbo parts your pretty close.