Update on Joel Roth's Beck Super Coupe

@dlearl476 posted:

It’s a show car. Go to a Hot Rod show. They’re all like that. (Well, the ones that aren’t rat rods anyway)

At some point when I wasn't looking, the meaning of "show cars" morphed from "Pebble Beach" and into "SEMA".

I'm not a huge fan of either, but the SEMA sensibility of ridiculous, over-the-top, "Ed Roth Rat Fink"-style cars pretty much repels me on every level.

When it's a sports-car that's been SEMA-pimped, it looks doubly stupid.

FWIW, a "show car" in most of the country means something different than this. It means old guys sitting in lawn chairs next to pre-1973 (generally pre-1955) American iron. It means 23 coats of candy-apple red applied in 1978 and waxed and rubbed every other Saturday in the summer since. It means blown big-blocks and tubbed rear-ends with American Racing mags. It's the sum of 40-odd years of some forklift driver or factory line worker or street sweeper's nights, weekends, and Christmas bonus'.

Real car-shows are really not my jam, but they're earnest and honest. Stuff like this always looks to me like the intent was to sell something by spraying the entire car with a money gun.

Whatever it is, I'm not buying.

@dlearl476 posted:

Show Car. Never intended to be driven on the street.

This illustrates my point, PERFECTLY. TACKY!

You can call it "bling". You can call it "workmanship". You can call it "bespoke".

I'm not buying. It looks like someone with more(lots more) money than sense was at the helm. Sorry, not sorry.

This is the perfect example of "more is NOT always more".

The most beautiful street rod I've ever laid eyes on was at the old NY Coliseum around 1969.  Oddly it was a correct shade of pink 32 Deuce Coupe with all the stainless, chrome and wheels done in copper.  Hence "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" Talking to the blonde girl that owned it, the car was an inspiration from a fiction based book " Street Rod" by Henry Felson.  Funny how things do align as  I ended up reading that book and was the inspiration of my car building addiction. 

I have to admit, I went a little tacky after seeing that car. Oh well I still like it. For now!

Big Tent. It's round so nobody has to argue their way out of a corner, and there are numerous entrances and exits. Great hobby.

As we all agree, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. That is why all of our cars are different in different ways. We personalize them to meet our tastes and sometime our budget. We pick different body styles: Coupe, Convertible, Speedster, Spyder, A, B or C or Pre-A. Different colors, shades of color, wheels, engines, interiors. You get the picture.

What we simply have to do is appreciate the differences and the workmanship. Everyone has their own vision.   

with a little time & effort...along with a few well spent $$$...we all can have a "SHOW CAR" that can also be a daily driver if you so chose....just IMHO

jncspyder:

Nice. What size wheels and tires are you running?

@Joel Roth these wheels are knock off FUCHS 15"...not exactly sure how wide   6" ?....the guys would know...tire size is 195/65R15....all i know these were biggest wheels/tires that would fit

I can't remember if I posted this before, but I found it helpful in my decision making process: https://www.gearpatrol.com/car...ng-blue-porsche-911/

@jncspyder  Very nice, which maker is it?  BTW you'll have to change to @jnccoupe

@DannyP posted:

This illustrates my point, PERFECTLY. TACKY!

You can call it "bling". You can call it "workmanship". You can call it "bespoke".

I'm not buying. It looks like someone with more(lots more) money than sense was at the helm. Sorry, not sorry.

This is the perfect example of "more is NOT always more".

LOL. Yeah, not my cup of tea, either, although I have to admit, a couple of cars in James Hetfield collection I saw at the Petersen Museum were pretty nice. But they were also very tastefully done. A Jag mk IX (?) and another one I can’t remember. They were reminiscent of Delahayes and Auburns.

IMHO, that coupe in in the same class as the show hot rods . It’s a garish, overdone garage queen.

@IaM-Ray my car is a 2018'ish JPS car.....it is much better now than when delivered...but that's a whole 'nother OPRAH  and i think my name has stuck to long to change

"Show Car" can mean a lot of things. I agree with Stan's parameters in general but he's leaving out a lot of sub and sub-sub cultural trends. You know, the "stance" guys with the leaned-out Hondas and 'Yotas. The would-be "drifters." The Low Riders. There's a whole world of truck dudes out there, mostly doing stuff I'd find pointless, if not offensive. The HAMB guys' efforts almost always make me smile. Plus there are still Bubble and Box aficionados out there...somewhere. Kit car/replica guys are but one tiny pimple on the Car Guy Planet, and even among our kind there are differences in style and substance.

My issue with the SEMA aesthetic is not merely that it's tasteless money-gunnery (and kudos to @Stan Galat for coining a great phrase). It's that the cars' function is almost always forgotten. Those things—supposed "works of art"—are not only incapable of being driven on the road. Most of them would burst into flames if you attempted to start them.

At some point it ceases to be awe-inspiring or even amusing, and it becomes just...sad.

It's not even new though. The story is told about Ed Roth's Mysterion, the famous, twin-engined, Bill-the-Cat-eyed hot rod that launched a million kids' Kandy-Koated dreams, that it was was so poorly engineered and constructed that its frame cracked constantly just from travel on the trailer.

A modern replica uses a hollowed-out engine on one side to save weight.

Sound fun? Not to me. I rather have something like Stan, or Danny P, would build—close to the bleeding edge of functional performance.

—or something like I would build: with perhaps lesser acceleration but more reliability, and looks to match, as far as possible, what is being aped.

But that's just me, and that's just now. Tastes change. Who's to say in a year or two I won't be on to something radically different? The SEMA people, and all the other flavors of our flavor, keep spinning wheels and rolling fuzzy dice that the rest of us might find some inspiration.

And I like that.

@jncspyder posted:

@IaM-Ray my car is a 2018'ish JPS car.....it is much better now than when delivered...but that's a whole 'nother OPRAH  and i think my name has stuck to long to change

nother Oprah, isn't that the truth. : ))

Well, I heard from Carey the other day. He told me they just finished up building frame numbers 11 and 12 and will start on 13 and 14 after the new year. I am number 14.

He also told me they completed the 1st rear engine Super Coupe (with a Subaru motor), and it is currently being tested.

He also told me they acquired the Porsche 911 motor for my car from a donor 996 they bought. They will be removing it from the donor car and sending it out for rebuilding shortly. 

Project 911 Super Coupe is officially starting.

Joel

Now the fun begins, Joel.  You'll find time moves very slowly from here on.   Ask me how I know.

WooHoo!

@Lane Anderson posted:

Now the fun begins, Joel.  You'll find time moves very slowly from here on.   Ask me how I know.

When I was dealing with Italian motorcycle maker CR&S the owner told me “there’s two stages to this project: first we figure out how to build the bike, then we have to figure out how we’re going to produce it.”

I figure your SC was probably the middle step between the two. Hopefully, the future builds will be streamlined.

That's pretty accurate, @dlearl476.  I know some small changes are still being made, but they've got the hang of it.

@Lane Anderson posted:

Now the fun begins, Joel.  You'll find time moves very slowly from here on.   Ask me how I know.

Really…Time will go slower 😬😬😬 the closer to build start date?

im late to the party as always, but also knew I didn’t have time to do a new build on my own. My wife, also knew this very well and said to order a turn key car.  I was able to choose where to get it from and thought Carey would be the best product. It’s really her car anyway, and she knows my project tend to stretch out longer than expected and wants to enjoy the car.

but, back on topic a bit.  We met some friends a few weeks ago across town for a little car show. I got roped into judging (😡!*#!😡), everything from a WWII Ford Jeep to new, drive-it-off-the-lot rides. Funny thing is, based on the club’s score sheet, the Jeep and a baby blue ‘66, 6 cylinder Mustang were the winners in my group. And, yes, there were a lot of way too much (fill-in the blank) rides as well.

Carey and his crew have a lot of experience building these types of cars. While the SC design and build may be different than another car they are building and/or have built, the process and the components are very similar. Moving the engine to the rear is nothing new for them. Most of the cars they build are rear engine. Using a 911 motor is nothing new for them.  Building a water-cooled car is nothing new for them. Putting this all together in their SC is the only thing new. Given their level of experience and attention to detail, I have every confidence that the end result will be mechanically excellent and aesthetically beautiful. And when I get it, I will be very happy.

Lane, what is the process from this point moving forward. Does Carey have a sit down/zoom meeting to go over all the specific details for your car, and choices? Or is it done on the fly, when he gets to each point where a choice needs to be made it is discussed?

Joel

Well said.

The process for a custom build like this is a bit different than our "normal" process.  In this case we'll build the body/chassis like normal, but when it comes out of the mold we'll move it over to assembly instead of into my body shop.  This way we can dive into drivetrain and suspension fitment.  This allows us the most flexibility to make changes and fabricate without having to move backwards anywhere.  In addition, for this particular build, there are some unknowns that will effect other choices in the build, such as suspension/brakes will dictate wheel options to an extent.  Once all of that is done we'll disassemble, send components off to their respective rebuilders, and the body/chassis back to the body shop boys.

As for the "normal" process, some guys like to lay it all out in the beginning, others like to make the minimum required decisions up front and then once it is closer make the final decisions.  I do this via phone, e-mail, zoom or in person.

Yeah, what he said.

Carey and I exchanged innumerable phone calls and emails while making the design decisions.  A couple fo times when we weren't entirely sure how to do something he said something on the order of "Do you trust me?"  Both instances (head rests and exhaust system with trim) turned out very well.

@chines1

I was kind-of wondering how you managed the early builds, too.  I come from the computer world, but we had similar prototype, pre-production, early production and final production phases, each very different from the others, but our mechanical process was quite similar to yours, even though the production volumes were higher.

We found that we had to be careful ramping our supplier shops to maintain quality and delivery times as we dramatically ramped up from prototype to production volumes.  Some smaller shops don't want to go beyond a certain volume so we developed several suppliers for much of the product and shared fab info between them.   That way, we didn't kill any mom and pop shops and could throw bonuses at them for speedy delivery or for working with the larger production shops.

I'll admit, that we burned our share of smaller shops with too-short turn-around times or ramping their volumes too fast, but we learned how to manage a wider field of suppliers while keeping them all happy.  It's a shared learning process, for sure.

And Happy Holidays, Carey!

Carey and Joel. Has a decision been made on the rear suspension?  I know Carey mentioned they may be using the stock rear 911 suspension. Or is that decision made after frame build?

@550 Phil not yet.  The plan was always to use a modified version of our stock suspension and then I threw out the "what if"...  I assisted a shop with fitting 993 suspension into an original coupe which made me think....  ;-)

I’m thinking 911 suspension but like Lane said you’re the man. This will be exciting.

I do like the 911 suspension in my car.  Really keeps the car planted, and no issues with tail swing on curves, but I know Henry did a lot of work to make the chassis ready for it.

Compared to a beam suspension, my full 911 front end, A arm suspension, R&P, brakes and sway bars is absolutely a different car!

I love the front end on it and the Type 1 rear with sways works well with it.  

Bob's has the full 911 rear trailing arms.

While the helm joints in the Beck suspension may be a wee bit noisy, there is no denying how well it handles.  I ran an errand in the car this morning and was reminded just how well it sticks - flat and maybe just the tiniest bit of roll.  I can't wait to get it up to the mountains or on a track.

@dlearl476 posted:

When I was dealing with Italian motorcycle maker CR&S the owner told me “there’s two stages to this project: first we figure out how to build the bike, then we have to figure out how we’re going to produce it.”

Ah, yes. I delt with Ducati NCR parts and also with several Italian bicycle manufacturers when I sold them. I discovered that when they said "backorder" the words they spoke actually meant "we have planted the trees that will become your shipping crates."

Fortunately not applicable here.

@Lane Anderson that's it...just keep  rubbin' it in how that SUPER COUPE has made our cars obsolete!!    just joshin' ....i'm soooo totally jealous!!...but a good kind of jealous......enjoy the hell out of that incredible man toy!!

Who meeeee?

Ok, to make you all feel a little better, I do occasionally miss being able to put the top down.  One of these with a rag top (this means you, @550 Phil) would be spectacular.

Don’t think that Carey is ready to chop the top off of a SC. The more I think of it I doubt I’ll hold out for the 911 SC. A Conv D with removable hard top is so much more practical. It’s one of the things I really loved about my Intermeccanica. And the more research I do the more I think I can get outstanding performance out of a 4 cylinder if done right. Outfront is building the 200+ hp stroker 2.6L Subaru.  I’m also now thinking about doing a large displacement Type 4. I emailed Pat Downs about the possibilities.  I’m sure that 200 hp from a large displacement Type 4 is possible.  If I used a Type 4 Carey told me that he can build a 915 5-speed for it. I do think that the 911 SC is the ultimate performance 356 replica. But a 200+ hp Conv D with removable hard top just clicks a few more boxes for me.

Actually the D with removable top is what I was thinking of.  The front suspension is the same and I'm sure the rear will be well done also.

Latest update from Carey:

As you know, I previously posted that Special Editions received my chassis. Carey was intending to fabricate the motor mounts and then do some measurements and mock-ups for possible use of the Porsche 911 suspension and brakes.

He was going to try and use another Coupe body to do this because mine was not done yet. It turned out he could not use another Coupe body for the measurements and mock-up's because of the unique features of my car. Because of my use of a Porsche 911 engine and transmission in the rear location, apparently, the standard engine cradle top braces are in the way and have to be relocated. Carey did not want to cut or alter the other car's engine cradle to be able to use it for my mock-up. So, we had to wait for my body to be done to do this.

Carey just finished my body and they are now bonding my chassis to the body. They will then be able to do the mock-ups for the drive train pre-fitment (engine and transmission) as well as the measurements for the suspension and brakes. Once this is done, my motor will be sent to LN for rebuilding.

Carey also told me that they will flare the rear of the body 2" with pie cuts (1" per side) to fit wider wheels and tires.

R&D is so time consuming with so many unexpected hurdles. Had the first Suby Spyder ever. First payment early 2001. Received the car 2 1/2 years later. Joel if you could get your car in 2 1/2 years from order that would be pretty awesome. When did you make your first payment. April 2021?  So maybe October 2023?  I’m so glad someone is building this car. It’s going to be killer. Just glad it’s not me. Been there done that. Hey maybe I still have one more car in my future after the Conv D. Thanks for the updates. We await the coming of this car with bated breath.

I think it will be done before 2 1/2 years. I am hoping under 2 years. They have the chassis and now the body and are doing the measurements/mock-ups for the drive train fitment (engine and transmission) and the suspension, wheels, tires and brakes. These are the difficult things. Once this is done, it is really just a matter of getting all the parts and putting it all together and finishing it. I know there are other things to be done along the way, and that there will be periods of down time, but how long can this really take? How hard can this really be?

My car was at the body on chassis stage when Mike Fincher picked it up in November 2019.  The car was at the 98% stage at Carlisle in 2021, about 18 months later.  That was despite being the first one built with a lot of the standard features and delays due to COVID, so I think Joel will be well within the 2 1/2 year window.

Joel you said they were going to pie cut and flare the rear fenders 2".  Since they've already done that as part of the standard build does this mean you'll have an extra 4" over the original or is this the standard set up?

I am hoping it's done in under two years. My car will be Special Edition's first 911 based water-cooled rear engine Coupe. But it is not their first Coupe, nor is it their first water-cooled rear engine Coupe. While my car will have a lot of unique features, nothing is really that crazy other than the 911 engine and transmission and maybe the 911 suspension and brakes if they can get them to fit.

I think the rear is being flared an extra 2" over standard. 1" extra on each side.

Joel

You should be able to put some serious rubber under it then.  Waiting impatiently to see it.

@Joel Roth posted:

I think it will be done before 2 1/2 years. I am hoping under 2 years. They have the chassis and now the body and are doing the measurements/mock-ups for the drive train fitment (engine and transmission) and the suspension, wheels, tires and brakes. These are the difficult things. Once this is done, it is really just a matter of getting all the parts and putting it all together and finishing it. I know there are other things to be done along the way, and that there will be periods of down time, but how long can this really take? How hard can this really be?

Hard enough that darn few builders have tried it.

I guess I’m not talking about body on chassis. I’m talking about first payment to delivery. Obviously the wait time to beginning the build has increased tremendously during the last few years. I made my first payment May 2021, right after Carlisle. I understand that Joel was moved up in the pecking order because of Carey’s desire to initiate the R&D process. My car will likely not begin it’s build until early 2023. Joel and I put down our first Benjamins within a month of each other. It will be I interesting to see who gets their car first. I was told 21/2 years. I’d love to see Joel get his car before then. And I’d sure like to get mine before then. Other than my car’s, first ever for Beck, Conv D hard top my car will have no R&D. Even with my build starting a year later I’m betting that I get mine first.

Should we start a pool?

Hmm

Ah, two things to bet on.  I was talking about about who gets their car first, Phil or Joel.

I'll make a few quick comments here and then I'll excuse myself from this thread's notifications and if anyone needs me to look at something or reply they'll have to tag or text or PM me.  I think this game of "over/under" will just irritate me...  And to be clear, I am NOT upset, have fun with it, I just don't want to be irritated and I have enough on my plate as it is.

We work at the speed of right and our estimates on timeframe are just that, ESPECIALLY on custom builds.  I completely understand Joel's desire to get the car quicker and everyones desire to see the build materialize quicker, but the reality is that there are a LOT of unknowns that only a builder/manufacturer could understand.  There are so many cases of a client saying "let's change part A" and not realizing that a change in "part A" also effects parts "B, C, D and E", so you change those parts only to effect parts "F, G, H and I".  In addition, the things we're doing with this 996 drivetrain/DME simply haven't been done in the same capacity that we're doing them, so I'm sure there are unknowns that even we haven't thought about tackling yet... BUT I have one of the best crews out there, one of the best suspension/chassis designers in the nation, one of the best electrical engineers I've ever worked with, and an assembly team from lamination to final assembly that are passionate about what they do, so I know well knock it out of the park in the end, whenever that may be.

Yes, I made Joel's body out of order by several cars, his chassis was here and waiting his turn in the body mold already, same as about 20-25 other chassis.  I did this so I can start mock up of the drivetrain before Joel ships it off to LN to be rebuilt.  They'll be ready for it in a few weeks and I'd rather mock up with the old dirty unit and make any necessary changes based off of it.  Once the mock up is completed, Joel's build will go back into its original order.  

Rear suspension: using the 996 rear suspension IS possible,  but will require remaking several of the cradle pieces and links in CAD and then producing modified versions of those OEM parts.  Initially I ballparked $20-30K for all of the custom suspension components, which in my mind makes it cost prohibitive, especially with little to no real gain.  In addition, it would limit the wheel size to something much larger and more modern, plus they would have to be custom made or recentered, so figure +$5k in wheels on top of the other custom bits.  I can't justify spending that much just to say you have Porsche suspension when our stock suspension works so well, so stock it will stay (modified for the 996 biased obviously).

At this time, the stock 2" pie-widened body is our goal.  I've designed slight modifications to the shock angle, and I corrected spring rate, compression and rebound for the added angle, but that change alone will allow me to get 7" of wheel on the rear.

OK, I have clients all day and the first just arrived.  TTYL

Thanks for that, Carey. I know you've got better things to do. You know FULL WELL how easily one change cascades into ten.

"How hard can it be?" Seriously, that question should never be asked unless the asker does the work himself.

This totally reminds me of a particularly BAD boss we had at Verizon. To him, EVERY operation we had to perform "only took ten minutes". What a dope.

I'll paraphrase the do/teach saying:

"Those of us who can't do, pay"

Gotta do a long distance test drive to raise my confidence a bit, but I'd say quite high given recent indications.  I've relocated the speakers to give me something to listen to on the looooooooooooooooooooooooooong drive to Carlisle and the considerably shorter one to the mountains, so barring any unforeseen problems I should be good to go.  Oh, and Danny...

UPDATE: Well I see @DannyP deleted his good natured poke of me, but I'll just leave this here for fun.

Seriously I hope to see the blue coupe at BOTH events!

I recently built what was to be a very basic dune buggy for a guy that started out at $14k and quickly escalated to well north of $22k. So I'll reinforce what Carey said... one change can snowball into a multitude of other changes to accommodate the first change as so forth then explain those changes requiring a good number of man hours to facilitate as well as additional costs. Not to mention doing this takes time away from other peoples projects.

@chines1 - that was a pretty thoughtless joke I made about the over/under. As a guy who is trying desperately (and mostly failing) to hit deadlines in a post-pandemic "new normal", I understand how it came across and I'm really sorry.  It took the post down.

Things have always taken as long as they take to do right, and that has take me a lot longer over the last couple of years. I can only imagine how it's been for you.

Again (and for anybody else who's reading) - this is all extraordinarily difficult, more than you can imagine, and Carey and team are doing a fantastic job navigating a very difficult business climate.

Carey, you don't have to explain anything. Most of us just watch in admiration as you and your team build great cars.

Sorry. I’ll stop mentioning completion dates. I just know how long this stuff takes. In 2001 Greg Leach was just trying to exchange a Suby for a Type 1.  Same Type1 transmission with Kennedy plate. And then figure out where to put the radiator. He put it in the back and the car wouldn’t cool. But then the wiring harness etc.  Joel’s car is a much more ambitious endeavor. My car paved the way for many to enjoy the power and reliability of the Subaru power train. We also learned at my expense that the radiator must go in the front. Joel’s car will pave the way for many in the future to again, after the demise of IM, to enjoy the pleasure of a 911 power train in a replica. It’s a BIG deal. But it will take time to get it right. Ok I’ll shut up.

My answer to "how hard can this be?" is always, "hard enough that you want to pay me to do it".

I can pour concrete. I can shingle a roof. I can put up siding. I've tried drywall and paint, but I'm no good at either. I pay for all of it because it's harder than it looks, and I like things to be done well.

That's how I felt when I built my CMC.  Every damn thing had to be modified or customized along the way and it was taking forever (I'm sure Merklin is chuckling about now).  Then, towards the end (little did I know that I still had three years to go from there) a Hot Rod friend convinced me to take it to another hot rod friend for body finishing and paint.  Those guys took quite a while (the job was used as filler), but the end result was amazing - Way, way, WAY better than I could ever have done on my best day.

Quality work costs, in time and money, but it's worth it in the end.

Carey has a great operation going out there.......  Greg Leach, too, but as has been mentioned, ANY customization screws up the work flow and causes delays and a lot of running around for the builders.  That's the same for cars, furniture, appliances, computers and anything else.  The time estimates that builders give are based on experience and current conditions and those conditions are changing for them daily.  It'll be tough in Manufacturing for the foreseeable future, too.

Thanks for the comments and texts.  I do want to make it clear that I am NOT upset by this at all, was not offended, etc...  As I explained to a few of you privately, with as many orders as we have on the books I have about 10% of those that like to check in weekly, which is fine... BUT at 40 orders thats only 4 calls a week that pull me away from work, at 200.. well you get it.  Coupe that with material stipend, parts shortages, labor shortages, and 400% increase in new business, maybe I can be a bit sensitive... :-)

@550 Phil I don't have time to go back and reread at the moment, but on my initial reading, from what I remember, you had a very realistic take on it all, but you've been through it many times.  I don't think your car will beat Joel's, but then again as I said before there are still some serious unknowns with Joel's build and sometimes you don't know what you don't know... but I think we've positioned ourselves to tackle anything that come up.  I have the M96 GTS prototype up and running, despite a handful of PCNA techs telling that what we were trying to do could not be done.  I knew better and pushed on like we do...

Anyway, client #1 down, 2 to go and then I need to get in the shop and do some real work.  But again there was no offense taken on my end by the over/under and I realize that for you guys it was all in good fun.  Back to it...

That's all the more reason why I like Carey Hines. But more importantly, I respect him.

He does things nobody else can do or would even try.

P.S.: I LOVE doing things that CAN'T be done LOL!

I have been over under and through my car a number of times now and know its complexity.  I have to marvel that Carey can deliver it at the price point he set.  I can only imagine how tough Joel's car will be to develop.  That Beck can deliver these complex products at this level of quality with such a small team is frankly astounding to me.

@chines1 posted:

......with as many orders as we have on the books I have about 10% of those that like to check in weekly, which is fine... BUT at 40 orders thats only 4 calls a week that pull me away from work, at 200.. well you get it.  .....

Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet. - Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Take an old cold Tater and wait. - Little Jimmy Dickens

Wait a minute here. People are taking what I said completely out of context. I was NOT being critical of Carey at all.

What Carey and Special Editions does is outstanding. They do great work. Their workmanship is outstanding. Their customer service is outstanding. I am one of their biggest fans. If I did not feel that way I would not have selected them to build my car.

Nor was I complaining about how long it will actually take to build my car. I fully understand that what I am building is a custom car. Things need to be done and however long it takes it will take.

All I was doing was expressing my "hope and desire" that my car is completed sooner than the projected 2-2 1/2 years.

You guys completely over-reacted to what I was saying. Geeze!!!

Joel

It's what we do, Joel.  

Actually I think I'm the villain here, what with me starting the betting pool and all.  I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.

Maybe people reacted to what I was saying. I was just passing along my personal experience at being the “first” to have something built. Patience is definitely a virtue. Even after the 2 1/2 year wait my car still wasn’t right. But it was a lesson and all Suby cars after that had front radiators. My current 2018 Spyder in my opinion is about as close to Spyder perfection as possible. Greg definitely ended up getting it right. And I’m confident given enough time Carey will get your car right.

@550 Phil posted:

Maybe people reacted to what I was saying. I was just passing along my personal experience at being the “first” to have something built. Patience is definitely a virtue. Even after the 2 1/2 year wait my car still wasn’t right. But it was a lesson and all Suby cars after that had front radiators. My current 2018 Spyder in my opinion is about as close to Spyder perfection as possible. Greg definitely ended up getting it right. And I’m confident given enough time Carey will get your car right.

going of topic, but "wow?" were the radiators at all efficient in the back?
where were they mounted?

@Lane Anderson You are definitely the  Villain here Lane! What are the odds anyways?  Put me in $ 50.00  for @550 Phil is done first

"Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet." - Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Translated into Musbjim verbage...'The longer you wait, the sooner it will get here'.

Large radiator with 2 fans mounted on frame directly beneath 2 rear vents. Originally mounted to push air out. Then switched to pull air in. Didn’t matter. Car was fine if you were just cruising or on a leisurely drive. But that’s not why I built the car. Spirited driving with high rpm acceleration would rapidly overheat the car. This is all on Spyder Club .com. Some rich guy from Ft Lauderdale was following my posts and offered to buy the car for what I paid for it. Truck with cashiers check showed up the next day. 2 1/2 year wait and 6 months of ownership. Waited 14 years to order another one. And it’s a keeper.

@Gordon Nichols posted:

It'll be tough in Manufacturing any business for the foreseeable future, too.

Fixed it. I've been a small businessman for 25 years. It was hard to navigate the shutdown, but it was always the aftermath I was concerned about. What I feared has come upon all of us out here trying to do anything. 

Otherwise, I agree 100%.

@Stan Galat posted:

My answer to "how hard can this be?" is always, "hard enough that you want to pay me to do it".

I can pour concrete. I can shingle a roof. I can put up siding. I've tried drywall and paint, but I'm no good at either. I pay for all of it because it's harder than it looks, and I like things to be done well.

All that...but I do most of it myself because I'm actually better at a lot of that than a lot of the guys I've seen doing it for money, and also—damn, it costs how much??

But as I've aged I've come ever so slowly around to Stan's way of thinking.

Very slowly.

Last Tuesday I was awakened by five guys tearing off the neighbor's roof. It surprised me because I had, just the day before, squeezed a dab of roof cement on about 20 exposed nailheads along the ridge of my 8 x 16 shed, having run out of steam after re-shingling half of it in the wake of an unfortunate squirrel nesting incident.

And I knew it was going to rain that afternoon.

So at 7 am, those dudes were just getting started on a whole-ass four-bedroom house, and I exclaimed "oh no," loudly enough that it woke my wife.

Friends, those pros were done and out by 2:30 pm. House, garage, flashing, vents—the whole nine. And they left the yard clean.

I, meanwhile, managed to finish the second half of the shed roof on Saturday and cap it off by about 3 pm.

Well you sure have hacked / raped the shyt out of Joel's generous offering of sharing his valuable and cherished experience in a long term project. His likely over $100,000. project has come down to your lame fodder over concrete and roofing projects by others.  Will you soon turn on Arden and beat the crap out of his progress too ?  I sure miss you guys.

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It's just that most of us don't do roofing or concrete much, so are in awe of the skills of those who do.

Through endless repetition, though, we've all learned to do some things efficiently. Human ability to learn motor skills is astounding. A visitor from the planet Gorgon would be amazed at how fast most earthlings can tie a shoelace without even looking.

I remember the first time I went looking for dirt in my IDF idle jets. It must have taken two hours. I used mirrors and flashlights, skinned up some knuckles, lost at least one of those damned green o-rings, and somehow managed to get brake cleaner on my tongue.

Now, I can do all four, shoot cleaner into the carb bodies, keep a conversation about an unrelated topic going, and be done in about 20 minutes. I never even look at where the jets are coming from or returning to.

It's all in the wrist.

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So, let me get this straight:

Canadian Rip Van Winkle wakes from his slumber and yells "get off my lawn!".

Is that about right?

Its alive!!!

Carey sent me the first pictures of my build. The pictures show the chassis being bonded with the body. The body is right out of the mold and is in a very unfinished state. It is interesting to see what these cars look like starting out. When you see this, you appreciate the end product even more.

Thank-you Carey,

Joel

Actually Joel it looks like the mold is still on it.  That's probably wise to make sure it hold its shape while being mounted.  Good on ya!  The build pics are fun!

Oh, and @David Stroud IM Roadster D, welcome back you gnarly Canuck!

@David Stroud IM Roadster D posted:

Well you sure have hacked / raped the shyt out of Joel's generous offering of sharing his valuable and cherished experience in a long term project. His likely over $100,000. project has come down to your lame fodder over concrete and roofing projects by others.  Will you soon turn on Arden and beat the crap out of his progress too ?  I sure miss you guys.

Awesome.

Tapping out. Carry on, David.

@DannyP posted:

So, let me get this straight:

Canadian Rip Van Winkle wakes from his slumber and yells "get off my lawn!".

Is that about right?

Yep.  Don't piss us off.  We aren't always the super polite nation you guys seem to think we are. 

Now, how about we get back to Joel's build? 

No problem. Let's get back to it.

But first, go over to the Events area and sign up for Carlisle, Bob!

Yea, Bob!

Hey @Joel Roth, you might want to consider joining us as well.  What have you got to lose besides a few brain cells?

Lane you are correct the mold is still on it. I never saw an unfinished body, so I was not sure what I was looking at. But now that you mentioned it, and I looked at the pictures again, I can see it in some of the pictures.

So, I will have to wait to see what it actually looks like until after the chassis is bonded to the body and it actually comes out of the mold.

More pictures to come.

Joel

It's now out of the mold.

First pictures of the car and chassis now bonded together.

Carey told me that the front firewall panel still needs to go in and then it will get rough trimmed.

After that Carey will take it to assembly to start to mock up the drivetrain and suspension.

After that the engine will get set out for rebuilding and the body/chassis  will go back to the body shop to wait its turn.

Joel

Looks awesome and seeing the casting flash reminds me of

Startin' to get exciting, isn't it?

Body look great , has it stopped raining ?

@Lane Anderson  i know how exactly how you & he feel....i absolutely GEEKED OUT for days after first seeing my body delivered

herr Dr. Ferdinand Porsche....Stuttgart Germany 1957....just imagine how all the fine deutschen folks that GEEKED OUT over their soon to be completed works of rolling art

Nice looking car, Joel!

I like those convertible D's with exhaust via the bumpers...

@IaM-Ray i like to imagine  growing up as teenager "hans" in the town of stuttgart germany with rich german parents and getting a new 1957 356A coupe or D roadster for my 16th birthday or high school graduation....life ist winderbar! and frauliens beware

Looking good!

@jncspyder posted:

@IaM-Ray i like to imagine  growing up as teenager "hans" in the town of stuttgart germany with rich german parents and getting a new 1957 356A coupe or D roadster for my 16th birthday or high school graduation....life ist winderbar! and frauliens beware

A guy on another forum has his dad’s 356B Coupe. Bought new in ‘60. He remembers going to school in it as a kid.

You never know when something that is just a common occurence today will be looked at being farytale like in the future.  What was normal for one in the day becomes the dream of the other 40 years past, or 50 years past.  We are funny that way with nostalgia but if you knew what would take off you could make a lot of coin if you were able to know the future trends.

Got another update from Carey today. A lot is going on. He did the engine and transmission mock-up. Carey said they fit like a glove.  He is starting the motor mount and the transmission mount fabrication. He said the transmission mount will be easy, but the motor mount fabrication will be more involved because the engine mounting points are well behind the current cradle. So, he will need to make a new engine cradle. While he has the engine in the car he is going to design and fabricate the exhaust system and the engine bay shrouding. He will also be working on building the suspension and measuring the lengths for the drive axles and determining wheel and tire size. For the exhaust we are using the stock Porsche headers and dual mufflers feeding into twin center mounted tips. It should look and sound awesome. On the engine we plan on dressing is up by painting the air intake plenums red.  More picture below.

Joel

Woo hoo. That's going to be a great combination, Joel!

Great stuff, now to make sure it stays on the ground ... Just kidding.

Some more pictures from Carey showing the redesigned engine cradle and the mockup for the engine, transmission and suspension. He is now completing the fabrication of the engine cradle and motor mounts and checking clearances. He is going to design and fabricate the exhaust and the engine surround. Interested to see the exhaust. Initially he wanted to use a single muffler. But space may not be sufficient and may have to go with 2 smaller individual mufflers tucked up in each corner existing through a centered dual tip.  I think I prefer that over the one central muffler. It will be more efficient, sound and flow better.

@Joel Roth posted:

Money shot.

Wow.

Yes, it looks great. Don't forget, this is before the engine is rebuilt and cleaned up and the air intakes painted Red.

I’m droolin’ here, Joel!

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Joel's right, that little touch of red will make quite a difference:

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@Sacto Mitch posted:

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Joel's right, that little touch of red will make quite a difference:

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You've still got it, Mitch 😄