I'm in lust, er...
You know what I mean. I tend to agree about the spoiler not being a plus, but I don't hate it.
Oh, and your friend is seriously talented.
This might be going too far and too 911 but if you do the duck tail you might want to think about Fuchs. God I wish I was in your position and I hope maybe I have one more car in me but probably not.
I am using Fuchs.
I believe my friend used 16" wheels in the CGI renderings. We may use 15" or 16" depending on what fits.
As far as the spoiler goes, my friend is sending me 2 new CGI renderings, 1 without the spoiler and 1 with a shorten version. I will post them when I get them.
Fabulous. The car sizzles with the Fuchs and a shorter spoiler.
I prefer it sans-spoiler but both look good. I recall in our conversations that you have no intention of tracking it so the spoiler isn't necessary. If you were going to engage in more hoonery it might be worthwhile for the improved high-speed stability.
Joel-Do what I did: Both! 
I had a duckbill gathering dust in my garage so when I had my 911 painted, I had it painted, too. It took about 20 minutes to put it on/take it off.
FWIW, I can’t put a reason into words, but I like the original linger spoiler best.
And, just go throw a wrench into the works: If it were me, I’d serious consider putting a rag top on it.
https://store.gaugemagazine.co...2lTTM0xoCK4sQAvD_BwE
But then motorcycling spoiled me for driving a closed-top car.
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I posted earlier that the 1972-74 911 RS/RSR was one of my favorite Porsches of all times.
Right from the outset I knew I wanted to do this car in the Outlaw Style. As time went on and I looked at different Outlaw 356's I saw some that had some of the design elements from the RS/RSR 911's. I love Emory's work as well. So, I thought about trying to integrate a 356 Outlaw with the 911 RS/RSR. The result is what you see here.
The front oil cooler and the rear Ducktail Spoiler are 2 of the most important design elements of the 911 RS/RSR. So, I think both the front oil cooler and the shortened Ducktail Spoiler will be part of the final design/build.
I will leave it to Carey and his team to make my vision a reality.
Joel
Sorry, no convertible for me.
Sans spoiler as I like the simple and clean lines.....Just my .02
Too much cowbell.
If you do it, the wing will always be the ‘um, I don’t know’ part of this car. But I don’t think you’ll ever have second thoughts about leaving it off.
One could make all kinds of arguments about why it’s ‘wrong’ historically or otherwise, but this isn’t about logic or precedent, it’s about affairs of the heart.
My heart says ‘no’, but you’re the one taking her home from the dance.
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It's an Outlaw. It's not historically correct to begin with. It also never came with a water cooled 911 engine and 6 speed manual transmission or 320+ horsepower. It did not come with Fuchs either, or many of the other items I am incorporating into the design/build.
If I wanted to build a car that was historically correct or one like everyone else, I would have.
If you don't push the envelope, you never know what you are capable of.
I am pushing the envelope and I love it.
Joel
.
Yeah, I get the ‘outlaw’ and like a lot that I’ve seen. I like how this one’s shaping up, too.
But the wing has always been a step beyond that - for some, even on the 911.
I would just caution to make sure it’s what you want. The computer images are a great way to decide.
Do what Dave did, get one with and one without. Then if you change your mind in the future, you can swap it out.
You guys are making way too much over the spoiler. Spoilers did not come on a 356. I know, I get it. So what? Neither did Subaru motors, or wide bodies or 100 other things we add to our cars.
I like the spoiler , but is it going to help or hurt handling at speed .
can your buddy ask around his contacts and find someone who designs “aero” stuff ?
Also will it hurt the cooling airflow to the motor.
I also like the fog lights , but they are too generic , if you are thinking of using Cibie Oscars , send your buddy some photos of them , or whichever fog lights you were thinking of using , so he can get the proportions right.
I know these are only designs , but you are on the right track 
@Joel Roth Singer Porsche also has a smaller version of the duck tail spoiler which could work visually on the 356 body. it is about a third of the height and has softer lines. Just my 2 cents worth LOL.
@Joel Roth P.S. love the Fuchs; always thought they were great on a 356. Love the overall look of your car.
Joel, I speak as one who doesn’t give a hoot about what was ‘original’, either.
My drive has a plastic body, a two-liter Briggs & Stratton, disk brakes, five forward speeds, and a whole lot of Chinese parts pretending to be what they are not. I still like it.
But you asked what we thought and I’ve done my best to say that with honesty, humility, restraint, and what I hoped was respect for your sentiments.
I seem to have failed in some way, and for that I apologize, but I still think when it comes to wings and the 356 silhouette, less is more.
@Joel Roth posted:You guys are making way too much over the spoiler. Spoilers did not come on a 356. I know, I get it. So what? Neither did Subaru motors, or wide bodies or 100 other things we add to our cars.
We're not making way too much out of the spoiler, you asked our opinions as to what we thought of it. IMHO those Porsche spoilers look like a road kill platypus ~ BTW I do like the overall concept of the coupe.
It's an outlaw and Joel knows what he likes. I'm partial to the short ducktail. Although, I think he should really consider what a melted tea tray spoiler might add. 
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@Sacto Mitch, I don’t think you failed at all. Joel asked for opinions, opinions he got.
@LI-Rick posted:@Sacto Mitch, I don’t think you failed at all. Joel asked for opinions, opinions he got.
I'm learning (very slowly, because I'm pretty thick in nearly every way) that when people ask for opinions, they don't really mean it.
Here especially. The heart wants what the heart wants.
@Stan Galat posted:I'm learning (very slowly, because I'm pretty thick in nearly every way) that when people ask for opinions, they don't really mean it.
Here especially. The heart wants what the heart wants.
How true that is when you ask for opinions you will get some you won't agree with
BTW the last spoiler is definitely better looking ...less is more IMO.
OK, you guys are right I did ask for opinions. So, thank-you for sharing them. Oh, and I do not only want to hear opinions agreeing with me. There is no point in that. Even if I disagree with them, it still causes me to stop and think about it. And you did that. So thank-you.
Now having said all that I do not know if I will end up using the rear spoiler. I can definitely say that I like the look of the shortened spoiler, but I also like the look without it. I agree, it definitely looks cleaner without it.
Joel
@Joel Roth posted:Thanks for the comments.
I think a Spoiler looks good on the car, but I do think the one he used is a little to big/long. I think it needs to be shortened a little. I think if it were a little shorter and more subtle I think it would look great.
Joel
More like the Duck Tail used on the new Spyder.
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I'll do my best @Stan Galat imitation here, Joel: "You do you."
We'll always have our opinions and usually voice them on this site, whether asked for or not. Whichever way you go it will be a beautiful car.
Since you asked (kinda, sorta) I prefer the last spoiler of all of them, if you don't go without. When the Audi TT came out they discovered that at autobahn speeds the rear became unstable because of the curved butt, much like the 356 but more abrupt. That's why they quickly added a small ducktail, spoiling the lines a tiny bit but making the car more stable. Heck, you could put a biplane wing on the back and I'd still want a ride.
@Joel Roth posted:If you don't push the envelope, you never know what you are capable of.
I am pushing the envelope and I love it.
Joel
Pushing the envelope for the sake of pushing it would not be my goal.
To make something cohesive that works well AND is beautiful would be the thing.
You can tack all sorts of boy-racer stuff on a 356. Doesn't mean you should.
There have been several Speedsters, coupes, and Spyder replicas that were well-executed by the builders(fit, finish, paint) but were conceptually how should I say? Eh.
Go for it Joel. If I owned one car I’d build something very similar. My wife stopped driving with me when I sold the intermeccanica and built my Spyder. So my thoughts are to keep the Spyder for shenanigans and build something classy like this that my wife will find enjoyable. Oh but it will have a beastly 2.65L Type 4.
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As the owner of an "Outlaw" complete with the driving lights and Fuchs:
I truly get what look you're trying to get.
I would bet, thought, that almost no one on here has seen a 356 with any sort of spoiler except for Alan Merklin (I think he once built a 356 Hot Rod out of a CMC and IIRC, it had a spoiler and looked like this ( I could be wrong about his build, but here's a CMC with a spoiler, anyway):
These spoilers were splashed from a Later model Porsche 911 GT and are quite large. THIS might be what people on here are thinking about when you mention a spoiler or wing on a 356. These things were glassed in as a permanent part of the engine cover so it became a cover swap. CMC sold maybe 20 of them - I've seen just one show up on here since I joined in 2003 but, again..... They're really big.
IIRC, Rod Emory or Singer have done a 356 with a similar spoiler, not half as large, but they added it (1.) for looks and (2.) a slight increase in downforce on the rear of the car at speed. If you think of the shape of the car as the profile of an aircraft wing, you'll realize that it generates a lot of up force (especially a coupe) and becomes pretty light over 70mph. Added downforce at the rear would actually be a really good thing, you know?
So from me, Go for it! I actually like the CGI version you posted, but I was an outlaw guy before it became "cool" so wha-do-I know, right? You looking at that color combo in the CGI set, too? Wicked cool!
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All I can say about that one is "Ewwwwww!!!!"
@Lane Anderson posted:All I can say about that one is "Ewwwwww!!!!"
Concur. Whale tails are ugly on the 911’s they originally came on, to put one on a 356 body is a travesty. Even an ugly CMC wide body.
No Whale Tail. If we do use a spoiler, it will be small and subtle.
I like how the last one you showed was contoured around the vents.
My favorite outlaw build ......
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The Audi TT was pretty front heavy to say the least, we had one.
Most Audis center the weight of the engine in front of the front axels. So most are very front heavy and tend to understeer. But Audis compensate with AWD. I’ve owned BMWs and Audis. I would say the 2WD oversteering beemers were more fun but the AWD Audis always felt more planted. I can accelerate in my S3 without any concern about wheel spin. If I’m on a track I think I’d rather drive an M2 but daily driving I’ll keep my S3.
@Gordon Nichols posted:These spoilers were splashed from a Later model Porsche 911 GT and are quite large. THIS might be what people on here are thinking about when you mention a spoiler or wing on a 356. These things were glassed in as a permanent part of the engine cover so it became a cover swap.
Actually Gordon, I'm pretty sure we were all reasonably clear what Joel was thinking when he mentioned a spoiler... in that he provided us with about a half-dozen CGI images to clue us in on EXACTLY what he was thinking.
As far as aesthetic choices made by committee - I've never understood it. It's like asking your coworkers and people on the street for suggestions regarding what kind of woman you should marry. I'm not sure that the collective opinions of the crowd are a very good way to decide what looks good to my own eye.
Weighing the pros and cons of various options, power-plants, transmissions, brakes, etc. have value. Telling a guy what he should like seems like it's above my paygrade.
Fashion is fickle, but if I build what's cool to me without regard for what anybody else thinks - it'll always be cool to me even when the rest of the world has moved on to another shiny thing.
I'm 100% convinced of what's cool to me. Your mileage may vary.
In this case, I think "spoiler" is an apt name.
Yes, the exterior colors in the CGI renderings are what I am planning on using. Originally, I was going to use Autum (English Tan) for the interior, but now I am thinking of going with Red leather. That is why the Carrera Stripe and the brake calipers are Red.
One thing you guys should know by now is that I don't do tacky. So, when I say I am pushing the envelope it is not just to add stuff because I can and end up with an overdone and aesthetically ugly car. Of course, beauty is still in the eye of the beholder. What one person likes another may not. But generally, I think we all agree on what looks good and what looks bad, even if it is not our person choice.
Lastly, when I asked for opinions, I was asking for your thought, ideas and comments. I may not agree, but I still am interested in knowing what other people think to see if I missed something or overlooked something. In the end, I will still end up doing what I want but I may change or modify my view. The spoiler is a good example. I still love the look, of a spoiler, but it will definitely be smaller than what was originally shown and more subtle. Some may still not like it, but that is OK.
"Some may still not like it, but that is OK."
An THAT is the proper attitude, Joel. Nothing in what I see is remotely "tacky." I'm gonna love this car if I ever see it in the flesh.
You will. I am coming to Charleston with it to visit.
Good stuff Joel!
@Lane Anderson posted:I like how the last one you showed was contoured around the vents.
That is one detail that I hope is used if Joel decides to go with a spoiler. it is very complicated to build and will require a LOT of time and patience on this one little thing, and likely a new lightweight mold, but it's touches like that (IMHO) that change it from a bolt on part to a well thought out custom addition.
@Joel Roth, I’ve never seen a duck tail on a 356 before. I love it. Totally original and unique. Do it, it’s legendary. My only recommendation would be to commission a different script for the deck lid, instead of “Porsche SC” as rendered in your images, get “Porsche RS”. Everyone who knows will know and enjoy a big smile.
I will ask my friend where he got that from and if it is an existing part. I think I saw something online that had similar twin cutouts, but not the same shape as the 356 twin air intakes.
We will definitely use that for our design.
The one issue may be getting the side stripe to say "Porsche". I don't think Carey can do that without having a bevy of high-powered lawyers descend on him. I think it'd be cool to say "Beck SC" (SC = Super Coupe) in the same script, but that's just me.
I thought about using different names such as:
Porsche 356 Outlaw
Porsche 356 RSR
Outlaw 356 RSR
Super Coupe 356
356 and Carrera, in addition to the obvious trademarks, are specifically prohibited from use by us. That said, what an owner puts on his/her car after it leaves out of my control and there are many graphic artists or even existing badges to do what one wants.
This car will be epic. Probably make it into some publications and internet spreads. This will be a great first 356 SE6. (Special Edition). I’m sure there will be many more to come, particularly without an IM option.
I can add the side stripe after and any emblems I want. The same with the horn button and wheel caps. So if I have to do that after, no problem.
@Joel Roth posted:I thought about using different names such as:
Porsche 356 Outlaw
Porsche 356 RSR
Outlaw 356 RSR
Super Coupe 356
It's not a Porsche - don't label it as such. It's also not a 356, or an RSR.
I'm not sure how many Porsche components Carey will be using in your build, but mine is all Porsche mechanicals, and I don't call it a Porsche. Mine says Intermeccanica everywhere.
Why would you want to mimic another manufacturer when your build will be so unique? To label your build as a Porsche denigrates what you have.
You want a Porsche insignia, buy a Porsche.
.
How about Cowabunga ?
OK, I understand that Carey may not be able to use Porsche emblems because of Trademark or Copywrite protections.
But I can put any emblem, decal, or sticker I want on my car.
The car will have a Porsche engine and transmission, but it is not a Porsche. We all know that. But it is styled after a Porsche 356. We all know that as well.
There are all kinds of names people use to describe this type of car: Replica, Tribute, Clone, etc. Given that it was styled after a Porsche 356 (but is not an actual Porsche 356) I see nothing wrong with putting emblems on the car to reflect that connection. I am not representing the car as an actual Porsche 356, so I do not see any problem with calling it whatever I want.
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Sorry Bob. My car will have a type 4 and a Porsche transmission. And it will be a copy of an Emory. Mine will definitely have Porsche badges. If the high brows want to turn up their noses so be it.
356 ISH was one of the vanity plates I considered for mine.
Your car is an instant classic.
I think I'll call mine "Fred".
I added the P badging and have zero regrets; as Stan says it's a big tent. @Joel Roth your car is going be epic, I am going to have to visit Carey before it is done to see it up close. 
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@wrkinprogress posted:356 ISH was one of the vanity plates I considered for mine.
I was going to do the same! But was able to get 50yr historic plates from MD, which don’t allow for vanity; one or the other. I did name my car’s instagram account @356_ish though as a small consolation…
Super Duper love it @Stan Galat.
The opinions on badging are as broad as they are wide.
I went for service at a P guy and I identified the IM as an IM and I have no P badging. He says to me boldly it isn't a P.
DUH, no, the shape is a copy, but you can see there is no badging...
So no matter what you do there will be those who want to live disparaging our cars as if we are pretending to be in the P crowd and as if we don't know it is a replica.
TTYTT a modern P is nice but I love my IM.
So "you do you" ®
"2110 Super" badge sourced from same place as Stan's. You can get anything you want.
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Bob can you give us the site information. I’d love to put 2650 on the rear of my car. Of course right under the Porsche badge.
@550 Phil posted:Bob can you give us the site information. I’d love to put 2650 on the rear of my car. Of course right under the Porsche badge.
Marty Grzdjvkbpvsdkbjsbjfvwtz ordered some for his Alfa and started this whole thing.
The guy is in Lebanon. His email is venafj@gmail.com
Thanks Stan.
@Stan Galat posted:
Whenever I see that script I think of the words from the song “Puttin’ on the Ritz” by the band Taco.
“Dressed up like a million-dollar trooper.
Trying hard to look like Gary Cooper (super-duper)”
"Whenever I see that script I think of the words from the song “Puttin’ on the Ritz” by the band Taco.
'Dressed up like a million-dollar trooper.
Trying hard to look like Gary Cooper (super-duper)'"
And sung by Dr. Frankenstein and the Monster in "Young Frankenstein."
No, my favorite is:
Who let the dogs out?
Who, who, who, who, who?
Who let the dogs out?
Who, who, who, who, who?
Who let the dogs out?
Who, who, who, who, who?
@Stan Galat posted:Marty Grzdjvkbpvsdkbjsbjfvwtz ordered some for his Alfa and started this whole thing.
The guy is in Lebanon. His email is venafj@gmail.com
I do have a few vowels in there, but you're close
Do what feels right to you, @Joel Roth but if you plan on driving the car on public roads in the USA, DO have your guy re-do the renderings with a viable ride height before making any final styling decisions. Tell him 4.5 inches (11.5 cm) clearance minimum and see how that looks.
The CGI renderings are just representations. Carey is building the car. He will not let me build a car that will not be safe or capable of driving on the roads. Nor will I.
You Be You!!
For the record, I like the spoiler.
I find it odd that we are on a website dedicated to spec built cars and people inferring that your vision won't be spec
Ah, but we all love our own opinions .
@Marty Grzynkowicz posted:I do have a few vowels in there, but you're close
I have actually figured out some simple memory rules that allow me to spell Marty's name right, but it's so much more fun to call him "Marty G-2-the-Z".
Happy Friday everyone.
Enjoy life.
@Marty Grzynkowicz posted:I do have a few vowels in there, but you're close
That's the spirit Marty, my mother use to say if you not able to laugh at something about you your too serioius
@Joel Roth posted:Happy Friday everyone.
Enjoy life.
Loving where you are going with your build, Joel. In my opinion (not that it matters), the short spoiler will be great.
I know we've finished with that part of the discussion, but here's a pic that had to be shared.
No!!!
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@Joel Roth posted:OK I got the 2 new CGI renderings. 1 is a shortened spoiler, the other is without the spoiler.
Comments?
Joel
@Joel Roth Curious if you are married. I only ask, because I've learned the only opinion that matters is my wife's.
All that said, great renderings and congrats on the exciting build.
@Kevin - Bay Area posted:@Joel Roth Curious if you are married. I only ask, because I've learned the only opinion that matters is my wife's.
All that said, great renderings and congrats on the exciting build.
Funny how that goes Kevin... when you retire you goto work for HoneyDoo, Honey doo this... so your on your way to obeying, ummm, just kidding honoring the boss
As to the renderings, I like both of them and the tail is of course more aggressive.
Yes, I am married. But my wife is great about things like this. We discuss whether or not the project is something I should or should not do. Once we agree on that it is mine. I make all the decisions. I can do what I want. Along the way, I often do ask her for her opinion about things. But the final decisions are mine. She knows that I work very hard maintaining her in the life that she has grown accustom to, so things like this are my "reward".
Heee Hee, that made me laugh... Good for You Joel.
@Joel Roth posted:Yes, I am married. But my wife is great about things like this. We discuss whether or not the project is something I should or should not do. Once we agree on that it is mine. I make all the decisions. I can do what I want. Along the way, I often do ask her for her opinion about things. But the final decisions are mine. She knows that I work very hard maintaining her in the life that she has grown accustom to, so things like this are my "reward".
Joel,come on buddy, we all know how this works out in real life situations
No, I am telling you guys the truth here. The relationship I have with my wife is very different than most other couple's relationships. In a good way.
Translation: Joel is the big man on campus.
Happy Wife, Happy Life!!!
Yup. My relationship with my wife is much like Joel’s. I get whatever I want. As long as my wife gets twice as much on the flip side. Works well for us.
You mean the credit and the cash . Credit cards that is
@Joel Roth posted:OK 2 new CGI Renderings showing the smaller spoiler and an increased ride height, hopefully closer to what we will actually be able to do.
OK! Now that is taking 'Bad-A$$ery' to a whole 'nutha level! 
That'll do. Beautiful lines and a place to sit your beverage of choice while chatting at the concours.
Stupid cool.
Go big or go home.
@Joel Roth Just my 2 cents worth. I like the duck-tail on the deck-lid, rather than the spoiler on the body. I also like the thicker/ softer lines on picture 1; it suites the softer lines of the 356 body. rather than the razor-edge profile of picture 2. Someone else had mentioned two deck-lids(great idea); one with a spoiler and one with-out, so you always have both options, to swap at any time. Ride height, the lower the better without rubbing or bottoming out. Absolutely love where you are going with this car. Thanks for letting us live vicariously through your build.
I would have two rear lids made one with the spoiler and one without … have both painted at the same time and see if some sort of removable system could happen just in case I got bored of one look …. But that is me .
Other than that carry on with your vision
@Joel Roth, I noticed the renderings show a sunroof outline. Is Carey going to try and give you one of those?
@Michael Pickett posted:
That's quite a car.
If it were mine, I'd extend the bumper out a bit with some sort of floor decking material. I'd put two barstools out there, and then I'd set up a Muppet behind the wing (Ernie, Bert, Gonzo, your choice), so as to look backward across the vast expanse of... whatever that is. I'd have some faux tapper pulls directly in front of the Muppet, and the entire schtick would be complete.
It'd be more original than another Ghostbusters ambulance, although not as cools as the Bluesmobile with the giant civil defense speaker strapped to the top I see occasionally rolling around in town.
@Stan Galat posted:If it were mine, I'd extend the bumper out a bit with some sort of floor decking material. I'd put two barstools out there, and then I'd set up a Muppet behind the wing (Ernie, Bert, Gonzo, your choice), .
I'd go for Statler & Waldorf...
