Update on Joel Roth's Beck Super Coupe

@Michael Pickett posted:

I'd go for Statler & Waldorf...

To my eye, I can only fault the curved screen Super body and the Mexican bumpers. I’d like to see one with a flat screen and a metal dash.


https://sfbay.craigslist.org/s...ller/7500647731.html

Latest update from Carey:

They finished fabricating and welding the exhaust headers and x-pipe. Photos coming soon.

They ordered my brake calipers. We are using Wilwood 4 piston calipers front, and rear powder coated Red.

Moving ahead slowly.

Joel

Latest update:

Carey received the rear calipers (Wilwood 4 piston Red powder coated front and rear) and did a test fit for the rear wheels to see how large of a wheel and tire we can fit and how much of a flare we need. We are still waiting for the front calipers and as soon as they are received, he will do a test fit for the front as well.

Carey was looking to use 7 x 16 wheels in the front and 9.5 x 16 wheels in the rear. But tire availability in these sizes is a problem. Because we are going to be doing custom flares size and fitment are really not the issue. So, it looks like we will go with 7 x 17 in the front and 9.5 x 17 in the rear.  Tires are more available in 17 diameter wheels. Tires will probably be 225 45 17 in the front and 275 40 17 in the rear. It looks like we will be doing a 2" rear flare and maybe 1" in the front.

Because of backspacing issues no "stock" wheel will fit. So, we will probably be using a set of custom Fuchs similar to what Carey uses on his 904 Race cars.

I am attaching some new pictures. The exhaust is finished but still waiting on pictures. But you can see the headers in some of the pictures. They still need to be cleaned up and powder coated, and the engine still needs to be sent out for rebuilding. We plan on powder coating/painting some engine parts as well.

Joel

Nice! Good choice going for wheels for which you can find a good selection of tires.

Latest Updates:

The wheels are in. We are using 3-piece wheels. The Fuchs centers are custom made for Carey and are solid billet, drilled and spot faced for BBS wheel halves. Size is 7 x 17 in front and 9.5 x 17 in the rear. Originally, I wanted to have the centers painted Black and have the lips glass beaded for a satin look like the early 911 930 wheels. However, seeing them polished I like them and now may keep them polished. Carey said he could also glass bead them to give them a satin look. Tires will be Michelin Pilot Sport Cup.

Carey started on the roll bar. The main hoop in bent and tack welded in place. They are working on the rear struts and the X cross brace. When it's all done and fitted, it will be removed and sent out for powder coating.

Carey told me because my car is not mid-engine, he was able to eliminate the mid-engine box and was able to increase the front seats rear travel and also install the roll bar approximately 3" further to the rear than the installation done in Lane's car. They are fabricating the new rear seat side pieces and the rear seat area now.

Carey also told me that they started working on the front and rear fender flares. He has a set of flares he used on a speedster and is fabricating a set of flares from the molds to use as a base. The rear calipers are in. The front brake calipers are being built and once the front brake calipers come in, they will do a mock-up with the wheels to set the depth and curve of the flares.

Joel

Nice!

“Carey told me because my car is not mid-engine, he was able to eliminate the mid-engine box and was able to increase the front seats rear travel and also install the roll bar approximately 3" further to the rear than the installation done in Lane's car.”

Excellent!  That’ll make a big difference in comfort on long drives.

Latest update.

Roll Bar finished and they are starting work on the rear seat area and side panels.

@Joel Roth

All I can say is WOW!!!  

Hi Guys:

Latest update from Carey. You are going to be blown away.

The front brakes and suspension are mounted. The wheels and tires are on to set the body height and mockup the front and rear fender flares. The front wheels sit 2" too far inboard. Carey installed a temporary 2" spacer to allow him to mockup the front fender flares. But he will be removing the spacers and he is fabricating 2" longer A-arms to eliminate the spacers. The rear fenders were cut to accept the wheels and tires and he has a set of temporary rear fender flares mounted to see the look and stance of the car. It looks totally different than stock and it is widened, but without the "wide-body" look. I think it looks incredible and it is far from finished. Wow, Wow, Wow!!!

Very cool, Joel!  Wheel/tire sizes?

The wheels are 17" BBS halves and custom made solid billet Porsche centers. The centers will be painted Black. I believe the tires are Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 225 45 17 in the front and 265 40 17 in the rear.

They certainly look big and fill the arches.

Originally, I wanted to use 15" or 16" wheels and tires, but the size/width of the tires we needed because of the HP of the engine were not available, so we moved up to 17" wheels to be able to get the tire size/width we needed. When the flares are finished, I think it will look great and handle even better.

Looks good. Very impressive work. Fun watching it come together. Looks like it will have power steering? Is that white line down the back for pie cuts to widen the rear or just going with fender flares?

No pie cuts. Just front and rear fender flares at this point. The rear was widened 2" already, 1" on either side. We are using 2" flares on the rear and something less up front.

I am still debating on whether to go with the 1974 RSR look with a front oil cooler on the lower front bumper and ducktail spoiler on the rear. I am afraid to do too much and ruin the looks and the lines. Instead, Carey and I talked about doing a front air intake cut into the front lower bumper like used on the 550 Spyder instead.

Carey and I talked about doing a front air intake cut into the front lower bumper like used on the 550 Spyder instead. ........... YES !~

Here's what Henry did for my IM6.  Twin cutouts for twin oil coolers, in the front valance area, and cutouts in the front bumpers.  Works well.

Subtle but functional.

Hey Joel! Love ,love,love this build!!!!

This is a picture of the front air intake from a 550 Spyder that we were thinking of adapting to use for my car instead of the RSR style oil cooler air intake.

That should do.

Something like this?

Well the screens covered vents are cool but with the lights on top it does start to look a bit like a French Citroen or something from an animation studio .  

Look at this: https://silodrome.com/porsche-356-outlaw-car/

I used this as a guide for my build appearance-wise, but it's closer to yours with a 911 drivetrain.

Bob:

I like the look of that car. I also like the extra clear driving lights which I am also adding to my car. Just not mounted on the hood, but in the area where the front bumper would have been since we are deleting that. I am also adding yellow fog lights in the lower part of the front bumper cover.

I wanted the air intake to be more pronounced. So, right now the choice is the 550 Spyder type air intake or the RSR style air intake. I find choices like this are very hard to make. Carey is helping with advice, but he is more of a purist. I like to push the envelope a little. The hard part is knowing when to stop.

I must say that I love the look and size of the wheels are tire combination we picked as well as the fender flares.

I am leaning towards not adding the rear ducktail rear spoiler and not using the RSR style front air intake and going with the 550 Spyder style front air intake. I am afraid that using the ducktail and the RSR intake would be pushing the envelope one step too far.

Lane:

I read that article before. That car is beautiful, and the build was first class. I like that they made a lot of modifications to modernize the car, but keep it looking period correct. They did not go over the top, which I need to remember. I love the look of their engine. If I did an air-cooled motor that's what mine would look like. Thanks for the reminder.

Worth noting Joel that a lot of 550s ran with shark mouth intakes. And with a fair amount of variation.

Variation on these cars is the norm. Especially now with water cooled motors.

I want an Outlaw look and an overall style that is "aggressive", but still retains enough elements to look "period correct" without being too "over the top".

I’d just go with a standard 550 grill. But you’d want to do some kind of ducting. A standard 550 grill (if it’s open like mine is) just go into the frunk. Most are simply cosmetic.

IIRC, Sierra Madre or someone offers an aluminum grill in the proper dimensions.

Fibersteel offers them. (S-M lists them as out of stock)

Rusty Tubs lists a fiberglass version, and his website is still up, but I’m not sure if he’s still in business.

On my car this will be functional. I believe the front air intake is for the radiator for the water-cooled engine as well as the AC. I think the oil cooler is in the rear.

@Joel Roth - Yeah, that car was my inspiration.  What I was wanting to point out was the way Emory did the oil cooler opening up front.  That's the best example I could find on a 356C front end.

If you go with the opening rather than an underreported car scoop it'll give you more ground clearance.  That's one reason I reworked my scoop to be wider, but higher, and added the side scoops for increased airflow.  It cools very well and doesn't scrape every dip in the road.  The opening like you're planning would help even more.

Lane:

I did not realize that the Mike Colucci car had that air intake on the lower front bumper until you mentioned it. It is a little had to see in the pictures. Now that I see it, what we are planning for my car is very similar, but with the 550 Spyder type grill. The more I see it, the more I like it over the RSR style oil cooler air intake. It is simple and clean. 

New update.

Carey and the crew have been working hard on building, shaping and finishing the flares. One side is done. But these are only temporary. Once both sides are done, they will make a mold of them and then form them from the mold and re-install the real flares and finish them.

I must say that I love how the flares look on the car and their shape. They give the car a totally different look. Especially with the larger and wider wheels and tires. The car has a much more aggressive and muscular look. But not too much so that it does not have that bubble look. It looks like a retro modern 356. It has a 911 look.

Carey and the crew have done a fantastic job.

Joel

@Joel Roth posted:

It has a 911 look.

Joel

Hmmm, that gets me thinking...

Years ago, a body shop-owner friend of mine grafted 911/912 headlight buckets onto a Karman Gaia. Changed the look of the car significantly, in a good way. I think 993 headlights might do the same for your car.  (Don’t shoot me Carey!)

“Carey and the crew have done a fantastic job.”

They usually do.

I like the idea. I also appreciate good lighting. That's why I am adding a set of clear driving lights mounted in the front bumper area and a set of yellow fog lights in the lower pockets.

But I don't want to change everything and end up turning it into a 911. I am already pushing the envelope. I do not want to cross that imaginary line and I think that would be a bridge to far.

@Joel Roth posted:

I like the idea. I also appreciate good lighting. That's why I am adding a set of clear driving lights mounted in the front bumper area and a set of yellow fog lights in the lower pockets.

But I don't want to change everything and end up turning it into a 911. I am already pushing the envelope. I do not want to cross that imaginary line and I think that would be a bridge to far.

I think you're making a lot of sense, Joel.  The more modern lights would be too much.  I am interested to see how the driving and fog lights look, though.

And I (along with a few others, I'm sure!) am waiting with bated breath to see what those flares look like with a couple coats of paint...

Re. the headlights, the LED units that Carey installed in my car are incredibly bright.  They are functionally fantastic without changing the look.

ALB:

You and me both. I can't wait to see the body finished and get painted.

Don't forget the wheel centers will be painted Black with the polished rim.

I picked a Porsche paint called Graphite Gray. It is a non-metalic medium gray that they used for the 50th anniversary 911. I also like Nardo Gray which is also a non-metalic Gray, but is a little lighter, but darker than Chalk Gray.

Interior will be either Burgundy/Red or Autumn/Tan.

Gauges will be a custom set made by Speed Hut in a 911/VDO style. Black faces, White numbers, Red indicators and Black bezels. The picture shows them with chrome bezels. I am switching them to Black bezels. We are customizing the quad gauge and taking out the Fuel Gauge and adding an Oil Temp. So, the Quad gauge with have Oil Temp., Oil Pressure, Water Temp., and Volts. We will then use a stand-alone Fuel Gauge mounted where the Clock is now. The 3 main gauges are 4" the Fuel Gauge will be 2 5/8".

The front seats will be a custom set made by Carey modeled after the Monte Carlo Seat with headrests and Grommets.

WOW!

That will be stunning, I may have to take a tip to Bremen to see it upon completion.

2 excellent color choices,my 17 is graphite blue metallic(looks close to graphite)the Nardo is an excellent choice also,,Chalk is my favorite right now but Im Porsche maxxed out with my 17,,no new P for meunless i win the Powerball

Not too long ago a friend of mine made some CGI images of what my car might look like with the design parameters we were using at the time I post some of those images here. It is now interesting to compare them to what Carey actually built.

One of the images is a head on image of the front with the Clear Driving lights and lower Yellow Fog lights. This is the design and layout of what we will do. (The image shows the car with the RSR style oil cooler front air intake which we changed to the 550 Spyder style front grill. We also are not using the Ducktail Spoiler either.)

I will post some of these images again to compare to the actual build.

I will say that I like the actual build much better. The flares on the actual build are more pronounced.

Joel

Front looks good from here.

Latest update from Carey:

They have been working on finishing up the fender flares. The fronts are done. They are almost done shaping the rear flares. They are still looking to smooth out the transition area on the rear flares where they meet the body to eliminate the "bubble look". I think the flares look fantastic. Initially, Carey was a little hesitant about putting flares on a 356, but now he told me he changed his mind. He LOVES the flares on my car.   Pictures attached below.

I have also been speaking with Carey about re-working the location of the mufflers. Currently, we have twin mufflers located in the space between the rear of the engine and the rear of the car. Spacing is very tight and too much heat will be generated from the mufflers being so close to the body. So, we have decided to move the mufflers to the traditional 911 location, next to the engine/headers and behind the wheels. We will probably be using twin Spintech mufflers. Because of space constraints, we may also have to switch from the twin tip center exhaust to individual tips exiting through the body (Frenched) in the lower corners.

I am not a fan of flares on 356 either but Joel those look very tastefully done.  Congrats to both of you ...

@IaM-Ray posted:

I am not a fan of flares on 356 either but Joel those look very tastefully done.  Congrats to both of you ...

Ditto, that. My problem with nearly all flared cars is that they tend to look more cartoonish because the tires don't tuck up in the wheelwells at all. The CGI renderings you had looked cool because the car was slammed. It'll be interesting to see what this looks like with the actual ride height.

@Stan Galat posted:

Ditto, that. My problem with nearly all flared cars is that they tend to look more cartoonish because the tires don't tuck up in the wheelwells at all. The CGI renderings you had looked cool because the car was slammed. It'll be interesting to see what this looks like with the actual ride height.

I'm with Stan.  The photoshop pictures look sooo good. I think the only way to get that look would be no flares and a big pie cut.

@LI-Rick posted:

I'm with Stan.  The photoshop pictures look sooo good. I think the only way to get that look would be no flares and a big pie cut.

I dunno'. Carey's pretty good with this stuff.

If the flares are done right, they could look "tucked". I'd like to see it with all the weight in the car, ride height set, in profile. They look pretty darned good right now.

@Stan Galat posted:

I dunno'. Carey's pretty good with this stuff.

If the flares are done right, they could look "tucked". I'd like to see it with all the weight in the car, ride height set, in profile. They look pretty darned good right now.

Looks 911 to me, not 356.  As long as Joel is happy is the only thing that matters!

flares or no flares..that car is going to be DOPE!...it's gonna make ALL our cars obsolete....i'm insanely jealous

Carey has told me that the ride height is set. What you see will be the actual ride height. He is not done fine tuning the rear flares. When finished they should integrate a little better. The wheels and tires do tuck up under the flares. Maybe a little less than the CGI, but still tucked.

The flares do have a 911 look. That is because that was the look I wanted. If you remember I originally wanted to copy the look of the 1974 RSR. I have now decided not to use the rear ducktail spoiler or the front RSR style air intake but will use a 550 Spyder style grill for the air intake. We kept the flares but made them smaller to avoid the bubble look. In fact, Carey copied the look and shape of the flares from his own 911.

We are using  a 550 style grill. Our grill may be wider and taller.

Just one correction, the earlier photos show the proper ride height, I had to raise it all around to roll it over to the body shop,  ut the interference we are experiencing at ride height will not be existent with the permanent flares and modified inner wheel wells.  Thus, in the latter photos the front is raised several inches and the rear about an inch.

Thanks for the clarification Carey.

Final shaping of the fender flares is almost done. Once they are done, they will make the molds for the "real" fiberglass fender flares then strip off the temporary Bondo and foam flares and install the "real" permanent flares. Photos attached. You can see from the photos that Carey and his team did an excellent job blending the flares into the body to eliminate any "bubble" look. The flares look great.

Latest Update from Bremen:

Final shaping of the flares are done, primed and sealed. They will make the molds next week, then strip off the temporary flares and graft on the permanent flares.

Pictures below:

The car definitely has a 911 look. I love it.

Nicely done, as you'd expect.

It's going to be a beautiful car.

Very nice .. With Fuchs you’ll be there ….   Well almost

The Fuchs are already "there" and so is the car.

"There" is where I want to be.

@Joel Roth posted:

The Fuchs are already "there" and so is the car.

"There" is where I want to be.

Dude, you need to chill out. Almost there, as in the car is progressing.

After a while, you'll understand Ray.

Joel, it'll be spectacular, but you have a ways to go yet (6-12 months).  Relax, have a glass of your favorite adult beverage, and imagine all the fun you're going to have.  Meanwhile, I hope be able to meet up with you in December for your "test fit".

Dudes, you need to chill. I was only kidding around. I was not upset at Ray's comment. But I appreciate all you concern. After a while you will understand me.

I was up in Breman picking up my car a couple of weeks ago. Carey's shop is about 4 hrs from my front door, and I picked up Tom Boney on the way. We were able to spend the day together, which was long overdue.

We got at least 2 hrs. of Carey's precious time, getting the tour of the operation as it stands in 2022.

All I can say is, "wow".

What Carey and crew have accomplished and are accomplishing in (now) 4 buildings is nothing short of amazing. The super-coupe program took a while to come together - but the suspension, etc. is now fully integrated into the new Speedsters, and it's light-years ahead of the old setups. IRS. Coilovers on all 4 corners, A-arms front and rear, rack and pinion steering - they're modern cars (at least in how they drive).

They laminate in-house, and will be curing under UV lights. Frames and fabricated bits are done by certified welders (union pipefitters). I was amazed when I visited Intermeccanica in 2005 - Carey's operation is 4x the size and scalable because he's not located in the most expensive city in North America (as Henry was).

I'm posting this here, because I saw Joel's car in the body shop, and the flares blended so well into the lines of the car that they kind of disappeared. Pictures are weird, because we focus on the particulars of a build, rather than the whole. These are tiny cars, easily taken in their entirety with a glance. It's the overall impression, rather than the details that speak with these cars. Does the car draw you in? What's the initial impression? Is the car overly "cute"? Is it serious? Does it look like a child's toy? Does it look fast?

I'm not a flared car guy. Not just with Speedsters and Spyders, but with all cars - flares just never looked great to me. They look especially silly when I can see the entire tire in the wheelwells. I always thought SAS cars looked kinda' odd.

To my eye, Joel's car looks great. The flares don't draw attention to themselves. I'd still probably not get a flared car if I were doing this for the 4th time, but it's not my car. It's Joel's car, and this is his thread. I'm not so sure it's important that I understand Joel, because I'm not following this thread so much to see what Joel chooses as to see how Carey executes Joel's choices. It's really a masterfully built automobile.

Special Edition has really got it going on.

Glad you got the Speedy back to Stanistan. Tinker tinker......

Stan:

Thank-you for the observations and comments about my car.

I have never seen one of Carey's/Special Edition's cars in person, and I have yet to lay eyes on my car.

All of my build, from selecting Carey and Special Editions, to the components and choices I have made in connection with the building of my car has been done on-line, and through emails, and text messages and several phone calls with Carey and Lane to talk with him about his car, and comments from the members on this site. So, I really appreciate your comments about your observations on my car. It helps me to visualize my car a little better. I am planning on going up to the factory to see my car and meet with Carey before it is finished. But, in the meantime, photographs, emails, text messages, phone calls and comments from people like you are all I have. So, thank-you Stan.

Now, I wanted to say something about Carey and Special Editions. Carey and his crew at Special Editions have been nothing short of amazing. Carey's knowledge and professionalism have been first rate. I think his knowledge and experience in not just building these cars, but in driving them and in racing the 904's really gives him a unique perspective and understanding of not just what the finished product will look like, but also how it will perform and handle. I think of Carey as my guild through a 2+ year trip through the car building wilderness. I had a vision of what I wanted. Carey provided the expertise to bring my vision into reality. I think of him as not just my builder, but my adviser, and my friend.

Joel

Exactly right, Joel.  You’re building a relationship that’s going to last a long time.

Happy New Year to everyone.

My wife and I are in Savannaha, GA on vacation, and we were going to Charleston, SC for the day, so I contacted Lane to see if we could get together to see his car in person and to talk with him about his car and the choices he made and the build process. Lane was kind enough to take time out from his busy schedule and show us his car and talk with us about it. Thank-you Lane.

First, I have to say that the overall build quality of the car is outstanding. The exterior, interior and fit and finish were excellent. The Oslo Blue exterior color Lane selected with the Cognac color leather interior is just beautiful.

Second, while Lane's car is a Mid-Engine and mine will be a Rear Engine, the interior driving position and leg room was not uncomfortable. However, I can definitely see how an extra 2"-3" inches of front seat travel with the Rear Engine location will be of great benefit.

Third, before seeing Lane's car in person, I had never seen or been inside one of these cars in person. The cars are smaller than I realized, so keeping things simple and elegant is very important. Changing the front seats from the Speedster style seats to a Monte Carlo style seat in my car will improve comfort and driver position.  Lane also recommended adding an amplifier and 2 extra speakers to improve sound quality, which I will talk to Carey about doing. Lane's AC controls are mounted under the dash, which makes them a little hard to use. I already spoke to Carey about adding an axillary pod below the radio to house the AC controls, which should eliminate this issue. Lane also recommended not using the front faux side windows and just going with the standard side windows to improve air flow into the cabin. I am also using the rear "pop-out" windows which should also help. Lane also recommended adding a rear center mounted brake light to improve visibility and for safety, which I will also talk to Carey about adding.

Fourth, the standard body coupe looks beautiful. But it limits the size of the wheels and tires you can put on the car. For the purists and when using the standard engine this is not a problem. However, when you bump up the engine size and/or horsepower you need more wheel and tire to keep the car on the ground. As you know, I elected to go with the Rear Engine location instead of the Mid-Engine location.  In doing so I also elected to increase the engine size and power by going with a Porsche 911 water cooled motor and 6 speed manual transmission. This led to the need and the decision to add front and rear fender flares to be able to add larger wheels, tires and brakes to the car. Fender flares are definitely not for everyone, but when done right they can look beautiful and enhance the look and handling of the car by allowing wider wheels and tires. With the horsepower of the motor in my car we definitely needed this.  Carey did an outstanding job of shaping the flares and integrating them into the body so they will not have that "bubble" look. My car definitely has a much more aggressive and 911ish look. I love it, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I am very glad I got the chance to see Lane's car in person and I thank him again for making the time to do so. It greatly helped me to understand the car and visualize the changes I am making.

Next will be a trip to Bremen to see my car in person and talk to the wizard to finalize all the little remaining details.

Best wishes to everyone for a happy and healthy new year.

Joel