Vintage 190 aluminum wheels

Ooops. I meant Vintage Motor Cars, not Seduction.

I just spent my first season with them.

I switched to wide five and wanted to counter the weight add, it helped, but my car still gained 23 lbs :-/.

I had them black power-coated FWIW.

So far, they’ve been fine, except I took a right turn too quickly and kissed the curb taking out both wheels and tires of the right side. I’m getting the rear one repaired and scrapping the front one.

Would steel wheels have survived? I dunno.




> On Nov 3, 2017, at 11:55 AM, SpeedsterOwners.com <**************> wrote:
>
>

What car do you have? I have a Vintage Speedster and wondering if the  4" back spacing works.

Scrapped one would make a great garage air hose reel - albeit an expensive one.  Are yours the flat or polished finished?  Are they raw or clear coated.  Curious about maintaining finish.

Mine have been black powder-coated.

I like the idea of the air hose reel. I replaced the wheels and tires immediately.

I’m still waiting on the third one. I will cost $75 to redo, so I’m just getting it to have as a backup. No law saying that it can serve as a air hose reel for now :-)
>
>

You'll drop 8- 10 pounds per corner going from steel to aluminum wheels. Any other wheel that light will cost at least that much (and probably a fair amount more!). I'm guessing Tom's net weight gain is because of the heavy brake assemblies he went with; I believe there's lighter stuff out there (check out  http://www.airkewld.com/Brakes-s/2317.htm and http://www.coolrydescustoms.com/coolstop-brakes.html ) but its more expensive. And a hit hard enough to destroy an aluminum wheel probably would have wrecked a steel wheel as well.

Check out the wheels you have on the car now; there's probably 4" backspacing (or close) and if you look at the space between the wheel/rim and the shock mount and spring plate there's probably a little more room still. My opinion- put the lightest stuff on the car you can afford. This is a play thing, afterall, and lighter suspension/brake parts will just make it more fun! _{(think big, evil laugh here!)}.

@ Tom. You strafing apexes?!? LOL Sounds like a silly mistake, which could of done damage on your suspension components also. Hope your car is ok.

I can relate though, as years ago I thought I was Mario Andretti and blew a corner in my '66 Bug lol. Blew two front tires and trashed the rims. I've matured since then. ;-)

I had it looked over by the local Porsche/VW experts, and they saw no further damage, and BOY did they look. After giving me a laundry list of BS issues, they refused to do an alignment unless they did one of their BS issues first. The alignment is a little off, but she’s heading back to Bremen in a trailer next week for annual upgrades and maintenance. I actually consider myself lucky that I have aluminum wheels because they probably absorbed more of the impact.

>
>

Last year when Vintage Speedster was building my version of a Speedster "Outlaw" without hubcaps, I had Kirk put a set of the silver power-coated "Vintage 190" wheels on the car because they look very similar to the original racing wheels that Porsche used back in the late 1950s and early 1960s. . . but to me I think they look even better than the originals. 

As an added bonus, being aluminum wheels they were being advertised by Vintage Motorcars to give significant performance gains in braking and acceleration by reducing a total of about 40lb of rotating mass.  That was another big plus for me and I have been very pleased with them.

         

Great looking wheels - I hope to have a set...

I love mine! (polished 4 1/2")

I have a 2014 VS and have no idea of the back-spacing but I've got tons of room (going outboard) with the 165/15 tires Kirk uses.

Just got a powder coated set. I only have two drives on them. So far it's been great. I did scrub the front right tire on the fender during a hard left hander with a bump in the turn, but not as bad as it would've been with the steelies. I have the 4.5s up front and 5.5s in the rear.

I do wish they would've supplied a template for the hubcap clip holes instead of drilling them. Anyway.

I'm still undecided about the color. I'll live with them for a while first.

The wheels don't come with the holes predrilled or a guide where to drill?

That's why they come predrilled with the screws and clips.

I'd rather have them plain, but that's me.

Here's the 4.5 with 185/65 P4s on it.

I do need to decorate that center cap area.

Wombat, they come drilled and with stainless screws and hubcap clips.

Carlos is just too cheap to buy hubcaps...

Damn, I've been found out.

Those wheels will be on my spyder.  Carlos.  Can't wait to chase you through the smokies next year.  My car is getting very close.

Tom Blankinship posted:

I switched to wide five and wanted to counter the weight add, it helped, but my car still gained 23 lbs :-/.

If I may ask (and I'm not trying to do anything but learn) how did your car gain so much weight? Is it all in the brakes?

If I'm not mistaken, you switched from 4 lug EMPI brakes with steel wheels, and switched to AL wide-5s and SoCal brakes. Was there some other change that contributed to the weight-gain?

I'm as big a fan of "the look" as the next guy, but if Al is right about there being an 8 lb/wheel weight savings with the Vintage wheels, that means the SoCal brakes weigh 50 lbs more than the EMPIs. That doesn't seem possible, but looking at those chunks o' iron, I wonder.

I've got CBs wide 5 discs, which I really like, but are not perfect. They've got a steel sleeve pressed into an AL hub on the back which separates over time (I've replaced one, and Cory Drake hated his enough he went back to drums). I've always thought they were significantly lighter than the SoCal iron brakes, but I'm wondering now how they compare to the smaller EMPI 4-lug brakes.

I'm sure somebody knows what the weights of the brakes are (@Anthony, @chines1)?

Yeah, it was the wide 5 hubs. I was torn between Carey’s standard choice and the ones from Airkewld. The Airkewld ones are lighter and significantly more expensive, plus they are noisier.

I’ve had issues with noise on mine two and have switched to Hawk pads in the front and, hopefully, if we can find them, in the rear this winter.

In hind-site, I should have gone with the Airkewld.
>
>

@Stan Galat (and everybody else)- I don't know anything about the wide 5's, Stan, but when I emailed the Cool Stop Brakes/Mendeola guy (sorry, can't remember your name at the moment) about the weight of their 5x130mm vented front brakes, they were almost the same weight as Karmann Ghia assemblies- about a pound lighter? (I'll look up the email later). The light aluminum hub offset the extra weight of the vented rotor. The Vintage 190 aluminum wheel (4 1/2"?) is reportedly 12 pounds, so yeah, there's that much difference between it and a steel wheel- just like your Technomagnesio's (sp?) and the Porsche alloys. Al

SoCal brakes weigh a ton! They are a cast iron hub and drive flange. The CB ones are alum. The empi front are alum and the rears are cast steel/iron which add weight.

nobody thinks about it   Buy a light weight alum wheel which reduces the rotating mass but the steel or iron hub and rotor combo weight is huge.  

The best weight savings is the alum hub which holds the bearings and has a drilled steel rotor attached to it. (CSP or The ones out of Arizona). 

50 lbs more than EMPI 4-lugs— wow. I always thought they looked a bit like barbell plates, I guess they are.

I’m lovin’ those CBs more every day.  I got drilled rotors for it from a guy on TheSamba. I’ve always  wondered why CB’s wide-5 brakes are seemingly never considered— it seems like it’s either SoCal or Airkewld. They cost a fraction of CSP or Airkewld, and look better naked. 

FWIW, I’ve got Airkewld brakes on the bus, and I’d rather not deal with Pete again if I can avoid it. 

Stan,

Yes, the weight difference was between the much lighter 4 lug set up which uses lighter calipers, pads and rotors vs the heavy cast wide five parts.

I have had mixed luck with the BAD series brakes, but overall like them... just pricey.  As far as performance, once fitment issues were sorted, I really like the performance of the Wilwood calipers and Airkewld/Wilwood hybrid hats/rotors

 

Correction- Found the email and Kevin's (that's his name!) Coolstop front 11", 5x130mm brakes with aluminum hub, vented rotor (way better stopping power than the KG single disc) and Wilwood calipers weighed 47 lbs. compared to the Karmann Ghia assembly weighing in at 52 lbs.

Carlos G posted:

Just got a powder coated set. I only have two drives on them. So far it's been great. I did scrub the front right tire on the fender during a hard left hander with a bump in the turn, but not as bad as it would've been with the steelies. I have the 4.5s up front and 5.5s in the rear.

I do wish they would've supplied a template for the hubcap clip holes instead of drilling them. Anyway.

I'm still undecided about the color. I'll live with them for a while first.

A darker shade of your body color would look really good!

Agreed, Bill.

Stan, there isn't much weight difference between the CSP fronts and the Airkewld. The Airkewld have a very thick billet aluminum hub and removable bolt pattern, but VERY light Wilwood 4 pot calipers. By contrast, the CSP have heavy iron GM europe(Opel) calipers but very nice light cast aluminum wheel hat. Both have solid iron rotors, but the Airkewld are drilled. The caliper brackets are almost identical, 1/4" steel CNC/waterjet cut. The best feature is ALL pad manufacturers make pads. 

In the back, I went from stock iron drums to Airkewld. They are all billet, with the same thick aluminum bolt pattern. Same rotor, non-vented and drilled. Probably a wash weight-wise. But a TON lighter than those cast iron Socal lead boots.

As to issues some have had with Airkewld, I can elaborate. I had to machine the grease seal area, the hole wasn't large enough for the seal. Also, the bearing cap area was too large. I machined both ends on my friend's lathe. The outside grease seal I made a semi loose fit, and glued the cap on with silicone to make it easy to remove. I no longer need the speedo cable hole with the GPS speedometer.

I have seen the litany of complaints on the Samba, but I imagine lots of guys there are hard to please. Yes, the brakes are expensive and should basically bolt up. I expect to have problems installing every single part so that way I'm not surprised or disappointed!

Bottom line: expensive, lighter than some, and ZERO fade. Believe me, I've tried to make them fade.

And the wheels are icing on the cake. Beautiful and light as hell!

Tom B, I agree, if you had steel wheels you had a good probability of bending or breaking suspension parts.

 

Danny, did you get the polished or silver ones?

Powdercoat silver. Lenny too. It goes well with lighter silver or my white. I agree, a darker shade would complement your color.

... so nobody can answer the "why no love for CB?" question?

If they had Wilwood calipers they'd be pretty close to perfect. As it is, they are pretty nice.

Unlrelated to VW brake options, I was taking my sons 18 year old friend for a ride and I was surprised that he commented on how nice the suspension was.  He said if this was my car we would really be feeling all the bumps in the road.  He drives a Subaru BRZ.  

 

 

@Marty Grzynkowicz: Your son's observation is what struck me with the 2 IM/6 cars I've driven. The 911 front suspension transforms the car into something a car like mine can never be-- a modern automobile. The "planted" feel has nothing to do with weight, and everything to do with nothing being compromised by a beam suspension designed in the 1930s as a simple and economical arrangement in some other car.

Everybody looks to the engine as the source of the problem with a more traditional replica, but in my opinion-- it's the beam that limits everything.

Right on, Stan.  The other Speedsters I have had always locked up the front brakes on a hard stop, lacking ABS.  Not so with my IM6.  Stops perfectly.  That was one of the first things I tested on the two IM6s I drove before ordering mine.

But beyond that, the car - with the 911 suspension - is so solid, so planted.  I can take any corner at any speed and feel confident, and more importantly, safe.  I’ve deliberately gone off throttle during cornering, and the car stays dead planted.

I’m really driving a re-bodied 911.  The best of both worlds, so to speak.

 I’m a lucky guy to have been able to get this car.

Stan Galat posted:

... so nobody can answer the "why no love for CB?" question?

If they had Wilwood calipers they'd be pretty close to perfect. As it is, they are pretty nice.

I’ve also wondered why there is not more interest in the CB wide 5 discs.  I have a set and am very pleased.  They are well built, easy to assemble and look great in the wide 5 configuration (without drum skins and using a black bearing cap).  My only complaint so far is a little difficulty in bleeding.  But removing the caliper and turning the bleed screw to the top solved the issue.  

I have read about the issue with the hub separation.  How did you discover the problem on your car?  @Stan Galat

 

Bob yourpoint is well made ...your front end is still light and on stopping if the pavement has a bump you could still lock up as the suspension navigates the ground and has a light point crossing the bump.

we have the  samefront end andgas tank setups and it has happened to me but I gave to admit I had been really pushing it

Stan my new 911 full front end with sways front and rear is night and day from my beam suspension

Finally the wide five discs might be able to be used with a wildwood caliper has any one tried this ? Of course the bracket might have to be custom made

 

 

CoolStop Brakes have Wilwood calipers with all their brake kits- 

http://www.coolrydescustoms.com/coolstop-brakes.html

While Kevin's brakes are not cheap, they look very well made _{(and with the aluminum hubs they're very light!)}

I like Kevin's stuff. I just wish his shipping dept was more reliable. Every product I've ordered has had shipping issues before leaving his shop. Kevin has always made it right but it takes a lot longer than it should to get the products I want.

 

 

James posted:

I’ve also wondered why there is not more interest in the CB wide 5 discs.  I have a set and am very pleased.  They are well built, easy to assemble and look great in the wide 5 configuration (without drum skins and using a black bearing cap).  My only complaint so far is a little difficulty in bleeding.  But removing the caliper and turning the bleed screw to the top solved the issue.  

I have read about the issue with the hub separation.  How did you discover the problem on your car?  @Stan Galat 

It was on my 2013 Peoria-Yosemite-Peoria road trip. I split a Chinese nicasil cylinder and was throwing oil pretty badly. On the way home, I stopped at Art Thraen's shop, and pulled the engine to have it rebuilt there. When the car was up on the lift, I noticed that the LR wheel was able to be rocked, not unlike how a front wheel can rock if the wheel-bearings are too loose (or the hub bearings bad on a later car). The movement was minor, and a new hub as about $150 if I remember correctly. It just wasn't a big deal.

As for the brakes, I've loved them. I had a problem with the backs locking before the fronts until I put a big-bore master cylinder in (I think I might have even gotten that from Airkewld), but as anybody in attendance at the Maggie Valley run this year can attest, I can dive pretty deep into any corner, and never suffer any fade. I've still got huge amounts of brake dust on the wheels, which I am reluctant to clean. You earn dust like that.

A CB wide-5 front brake set is $550. Drilled rotors are $60 extra. The rears are $600. That's about $1250 total for a full set. Airkewld kits are about $1700, CSPs are going to be $2500.

Bob: IM S6 posted:

Right on, Stan.  The other Speedsters I have had always locked up the front brakes on a hard stop, lacking ABS.  Not so with my IM6.  Stops perfectly.  That was one of the first things I tested on the two IM6s I drove before ordering mine.

But beyond that, the car - with the 911 suspension - is so solid, so planted.  I can take any corner at any speed and feel confident, and more importantly, safe.  I’ve deliberately gone off throttle during cornering, and the car stays dead planted.

I’m really driving a re-bodied 911.  The best of both worlds, so to speak.

 I’m a lucky guy to have been able to get this car.

I have virtually the same experience with mine...I cannot get over how flat and solid the plant is......I have tried to rock it, coming off a highway exit and cannot get any lift. Between the low center of gravity and the physics(?) of the suspension, it is plainly an experience to drive

@Pat Downs: can I get the CB brakes with longer black 12mm  studs to fit my TechnoMagnezio wheels? I have thread in studs if i can use those...

(thread driiift!)

Ted

I'm going to answer your question about CB brakes, Stan. 

I didn't get them because I knew about three hub failures: a spyderclub dude who's name escapes me, Jack Crosby, and Cory Drake. And now yours, which makes me glad I stayed away.

I also wanted the front and rear to match looks and brand and function. So Airkewld. Yes, they are expensive. I could have gone CSP, but getting parts from Germany is less attractive than Arizona. $75 a rotor, front or rear. And CSP parts are pricy and you need to go through either Pierside Parts or direct from the fatherland $$$$$$$$.

I had my CSP solid rotor front/stock drums fade at 80 going into a corner and it scared the crap out of me. They make a vented rotor front, but it's a different hub and caliper bracket so completely new kit. And about as pricy(front or rear) as Airkewld or worse. The rears are 1500-1600, fronts around 1200-1300.

The coolest feature of Airkewld is that you can change the bolt pattern. Want 5 x 205 or 5 x 130? Yep, I can do that. 4 lugs you can't, but any 5 is possible.

I really like the 4 piston Wilwood in the front, and the availability of pretty much any pad you'd like.

I do wish there was a light caliper for the back with ebrake, but other than that, they work extremely well. It appears that all brands use the same rear caliper with ebrake...

I did consult with Danny over the phone re: Airkewld. He didn’t give me a hard sell and I was in a frugal mode and probably made the wrong decision not to get them.

>
>

And I get a lot of dust in the front(but that's pad dependent), and sometimes they make noise.

Danny said he couldnt do black studs on thw wide 5 adaptors. For those of you who have his brakes - could a guy swap out the studs?

Yes, they are pressed in, so I'm sure you can change them. I have black steel open nuts and regular steel studs. I think they look just fine.

What wheels are you running @DANNYP?

TRP posted:

Danny said he couldnt do black studs on thw wide 5 adaptors. For those of you who have his brakes - could a guy swap out the studs?

Ted,

if you find a longer 12mm stud that can be used in the CB wide 5 discs, please share the info.   I did not use the Vintage 190 wheels bc the CB studs are only about 1 inch long.  I am considering pressing them out and trying to replace with longer ones.  But, the new studs must have a similar spline and should diameter or they will not hold in the hub.  If you have ever had a pressed in stud spin in the hub, you know how much fun it is to remove!! 😡

 

I get all my lugnut parts from trackstuds.com.  They have a ton of stuff. I like Kevins parts, but the wide 5 adaptors are too flashy without the wheel skins. Airkewld has great stuff too, but the silver/gold lugs would look UGLY with my wheels.  So now Im stuck with the heavy parts from aircooled parts.

CSP are available from cip1 in Washington/Canada   Good prices when on sale, and quick shipping. 

As for studs I got longer ones for my daily driver when using a thin spacer to get them to work with my Erco bubble fronts..

also for longer studs on products I use dorman products along with saw products.

DannyP posted:

I'm going to answer your question about CB brakes, Stan. 

I didn't get them because I knew about three hub failures: a spyderclub dude who's name escapes me, Jack Crosby, and Cory Drake. And now yours, which makes me glad I stayed away.

 

I get that, but I'm unconcerned. There's nothing wrong with Pete's brakes, but I'm not at all convinced they're any better than CB's (remember, I have both). The hub thing is pretty minimal (in my estimation) even if they failed regularly (which they don't). Needing to deal with Pete kind've evens out the whole thing, in my estimation.

Anthony posted:

CSP are available from cip1 in Washington/Canada   Good prices when on sale, and quick shipping. 

 

The $2500 I estimated was through cip1. That's 2x CB's price.

Tom Blankinship posted:

Mine have been black powder-coated.

I like the idea of the air hose reel. I replaced the wheels and tires immediately.

I’m still waiting on the third one. I will cost $75 to redo, so I’m just getting it to have as a backup. No law saying that it can serve as a air hose reel for now :-)
>
Tom, where did you have your wheel repaired?  I think one of mine is bent and I can’t find a shop to work on it. Thanks 

curtissb posted:

Tom Blankinship posted:

Mine have been black powder-coated.

I like the idea of the air hose reel. I replaced the wheels and tires immediately.

I’m still waiting on the third one. I will cost $75 to redo, so I’m just getting it to have as a backup. No law saying that it can serve as a air hose reel for now :-)
>
Tom, where did you have your wheel repaired?  I think one of mine is bent and I can’t find a shop to work on it. Thanks 

https://www.awrswheelrepair.com/santabarbara