Vintage Speedster Hawaiian Gardens
Engine won’t start after sitting overnight without using starting fluid. After starting it runs great and starts easily all day. Anyone have any thoughts on a remedy?
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Does it have dual carbs and are you pumping the gas pedal 3 or 4 times before trying to start it?
Yes dual carbs and yes pumping. It tries to start on the first crank but just cranks after that and nothing until I spray a small amount of starting fluid into bout carbs. It then starts right up.
Just got the car yesterday, it hasn’t been driven much. It only has 1200 miles since built in 2014.
Changing the oil today, old owner still had the break-in-oil in it. Looks like new oil on the dipstick.
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If it's old enough to be an original (Hawaiian Gardens) VS and has only 1200 miles on the clock, it's very likely the carbs were never set up properly to begin with (and this may be partly why the original owner sold it).
Setting up the carbs is not difficult, but it's something that must be done with every car before it will run decently. They are never right fresh out of the box, guaranteed.
There's lots of good information on doing this in our archives. If you are a wrenching type, you can probably work this out yourself. If not, pay someone who can, to do this and you will be good.
Return with us now to the days of yesteryear, when folks resigned themselves to dealing with the idiosyncrasies of carburetors. They run very differently when cold than when hot — especially if they have no chokes (and ours don't).
Generally, without chokes, the warmed-up idle must be set a little higher than normal to allow the car to run at all when stone cold. But first, the linkage and the jets and the mixture adjustments must be right, not to mention a check of the distributor performance and the ignition timing.
It all sounds daunting at first, but it's not.
Let us know how you're getting on and there will be more advice here than you can ever imagine — some of it helpful.
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Oh no.........not the oil!! That's going to be another kettle of fish.
Thanks Mitch.😀
Can you recommend a good VW guy in Orange County California?
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@Popee posted:...Can you recommend a good VW guy in Orange County California?
Well, no.
Most self-respecting north state residents deny knowledge of anything that happens south of about Lodi, but we do have a healthy membership down in La-La land who should be piping up here.
You may want to contact Greg Leach at Vintage Motorcars (who moved into the old VS shop when VS changed ownership). Greg is very busy building new cars, but may be able to work on your car or recommend someone who can.
BTW, do you know what kind of carbs you have?
Change the fuel filter(s) and drain any old gas from the tank for starters. Once you get it started with starter fluid, let it run for awhile. Run the rpms up and let it get to operating temperature. Drive it around awhile and see how it behaves. It may just need to flush itself out.
@Panhandle Bob posted:Change the fuel filter(s) and drain any old gas from the tank for starters. Once you get it started with starter fluid, let it run for awhile. Run the rpms up and let it get to operating temperature. Drive it around awhile and see how it behaves. It may just need to flush itself out.
This is the exact first step instructions. Fresh gas and fuel filter will do wonders.
-=theron
A bottle of Chevron Techron fuel system cleaner in gas tank will also clean off any varnish crap in the carbs. They probably do need synchronization and some tweeking to run properly.
gas...out with the old, in with the new.
@Popee You say the car runs well. Does it idle smooth once warm? Is the engine responsive and smooth under load?
Is it just the cold start that is a problem?
If so, it may be that you just need to figure out what the car wants when it's cold.
I have an example for you(and this is NOT a reflection on you!).
I have a customer with a sand rail, 1835cc with dual 35mm Solexes(that I installed and tuned). The carbs have electric chokes and it runs and starts well from cold.
However, he came out to visit me one day, and had trouble starting the car when it was warm. The car had sat for about 15 minutes. He simply turned the key for a LONG time until it caught.
Now, me, I've had carbs all my life, but he had ALL injected cars. All he needed to do was VERY slightly crack the throttle as he turned the key. Instant start, let off the gas, perfect idle.
There was nothing wrong, just needed to give the car what it needed. Now he has no trouble at all, anytime.
As I said above, maybe you just have to experiment and figure out what the car wants when it's cold. They can be cantankerous and difficult when cold.
Can anyone tell me where to find the fuel filter/filters? I would assume they’re in the engine bay somewhere.
Filter: At least one if not two. One under the fuel tank and the second at the left rear frame horn where the hard line exits.
I'm a little surprised that none of the SoCal owners have popped up on this thread to identify a VW mechanic they trust near Santa Ana.
So knowing full well that it's a 3-hour drive to get practically anywhere down there, I would suggest that you call the folks at Vintage Motorcars Inc. in Hawaiian Gardens and ask who they might recommend for a VW shop within a reasonable drive that could check out your car and set up the carbs for you. Anna will probably answer the phone (business hours) or you can ask for Greg, the owner, but Anna is really a good source for info like this.
Their contact page and phone number:
https://www.vintagemotorcarsinc.com/contact-us/
Another good info source would be one of the many Aircooled VW clubs in SoCal, so google "aircooled volkswagen club of southern california" (Click on it - It's a link) and start looking into some of them. Old VW people are the most helpful on Earth.
Seems 1/2 the pictures one sees of a VW engine there is a 59 cent clear plastic fuel filter hanging near distributor --- just waiting to crack/melt/leak and destroy the car. We all collectively cringe. I have a clear glass one up under fuel tank -- almost as bad but it's nice to be able to see if there's rust collecting in it. The steel ones are preferred for safety. (Do carry a good size fire extinguisher with you!)
NO, NO ----
Another issue could be the fuel pump - you didn't say if still mechanical or an electric add-on. With electric one should turn on key and wait until pump stops running. Mechanical takes engine turning over. Many use the $16 Empi/Facet vibrating electric pumps which aren't very good (and frequently fail). A good rotary pump is worth the $75 (but check volume - you may need a fuel pressure regulator to reduce pressure and keep it consistent).
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If your car is a Hawaiian Gardens VS, it probably has only one fuel filter, and it's likely not in the engine compartment.
You probably have a mechanical fuel pump, mounted near the distributor. Follow the fuel lines from that. One will lead to the carbs, the other passes through the firewall at the front of the compartment. The fuel filter is usually just on the other side of that partition.
It's probably a metal canister, about three inches long. The problem is that it's usually mounted very high in the narrow compartment just ahead of the engine compartment, accessible from underneath the car, but hard to reach unless the car is up on a lift.
My car had no filter just under the gas tank (although installing one isn't a bad idea). If your filter is in that narrow compartment in the back of the car and mounted high up, there's a good risk of dowsing yourself with gas when trying to remove it unless you're prepared.
As the Boy Scouts say, be prepared.
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Thank you all for the great information you’ve all shared. This is a new venture go me, I’ve owned 2 Porsche Carrera cabs and have been toyless for a year. I’m retired so I needed something to fiddle with and drive. Plus i didn’t want to spend over 100K for a toy. Who knows what the future holds…
Your story sound familiar on this site and I laughed when Sacto said: ”Let us know how you're getting on and there will be more advice here than you can ever imagine — some of it helpful.”
There is truly a learn curve and building a good relationship with a mechanic might be a must for most non wrenchers.
I run big metal fuel filters from American cars , one out of the gas tank and another in the back where it comes out of the chassis and away from any hot exhaust ,
you probably want to replace all the rubber fuel hoses anyway so just add some metal fuel filters ,
What kind of carbs are on the motor ?
@Popee - this thread is a touch old, but you might find it helpful in searching for an OC VW mechanic: SoCal Mechanics
The carbs are weber’s
I now have a shifter problem, I’m taking it in to have a few things looked at.
Shifter was working ok but not great. Now it won’t go into reverse or 2nd gear. It was also difficult to go from 3rd down to 2nd, would go into 4th instead. Shifter felt a bit out of adjust.
Mine did that suddenly (gears became hopeless), and it required a new linkage. The old one had just shattered apart. Happily, it's easy enough to check by opening the little panel just above the back bench, behind the seats on the transmission tunnel. It should be under a flap of carpet. It's even easy to fix yourself, if that's the problem (and you'll be able to see the broken pieces easily).....and you can order the part quickly enough.
There is another place to check, at the base of the gear lever, which is just a small rubber ring to be replaced, but your description sounded just like my problem - which was the first fix described above.
There are 2 types of couplers ,
one style has the hockey stick coming out of the gearbox which goes into a round metal piece , then a round “rubber piece” in the center , then the metal front section has a hole for the shift rod to slide into ,
the other style is rectangular with a metal cage that holds rectangular rubber pieces that a screw goes thru , the shift road has a metal sleeve on the end where the screw goes thru ,
There have been some real junk couplers thru the years, if there are German ones get one ,
Simple to change yourself …..
Taking the car into DeVito’s in Orange. Going to have them adjust the carbs, fix the shifter issue, oil change, and check it all out. Only have had the car for 2 days but really like it.
I’ll let you know what the issues were. Thanks again everyone for all the advice.
Happy Holidays everyone,
Popee
AKA
Ron Kuskie
North Tustin
To all who gave advice, thank you so much. The issue with the shifting were the 2 red bushings on the shift rod coupler. It was a very easy repair thanks to you and YouTube. Actually had a fun time doing the replacement. Merry Christmas to all.
Can’t figure out how to attach a picture. Sorry I’m old and not technical much.
Popee
Glad you're back on the road in time for the holidays, Ron!
@Popee wrote: "Can’t figure out how to attach a picture. Sorry, I’m old and not technical much."
Sounds like a lot of us on here...... 😉
I did manage to add a picture of my car, so just a learning curve.🤞
anyone have a recommendation for insurance for the replicas? Mercury won’t insure them.
Many use Haggerty for insurance. Some use Grundy. I use Grundy because, for me at least, they were cheaper and seem to be less restrictive.
The picture is on the other thread where he posted the insurance question again.
Danny P.
pumping the throttle 3-4 times then a slight push on the peddle works great. It takes 3 tries but works great. Thank you very much.
Fixed the shifter problem, it was the shift rod coupler where it goes into the tranny shaft. The red bushings were in crumbs sitting in the bottom of the tunnel. Installed new coupler and bushings in an hour. Shifts better than it did when I purchased it. Thanks
@Michael McKelvey posted:The picture is on the other thread where he posted the insurance question again.
Thanks Michael.
Red urethane "anything" should be avoided, it's all junk.
@Popee posted:To all who gave advice, thank you so much. The issue with the shifting were the 2 red bushings on the shift rod coupler. It was a very easy repair thanks to you and YouTube. Actually had a fun time doing the replacement. Merry Christmas to all.
Can’t figure out how to attach a picture. Sorry I’m old and not technical much.
Popee
Try not to use any of the red urethane crap; everything made from it is useless. Try to get OEM or at least OEM style rubber ones; they'll last an eternity.
OEM German is the best you can find. OEM Brazilian is second best but rare (and they were actually made in Mexico, but still good).
This place has the german ones, some used, some new. You probably want the 64 - 79 version (the round ones are very early VW) and they have them, rebuilt, for about $50 bucks. What you really want are OEM German bushings and one of them has that for about $30 bucks, but if your current coupler looks like the metal parts are a little flimsy, then I would spring for the $50 rebuilt German one.
Cry once, buy once. Sorry....
Bought the German ones, took me an hour to install it. Works great again. Thanks for the information.
Ok guys, and gals, I’m going to change my oil. Does the complete oil drain circle have to be removed or can I just drain the oil thru the bolt in the middle? It shows an oil strainer, I have an external oil filter and oil cooler. Should I use a synthetic oil or regular oil?
Where can I find the gaskets needed for the oil change? I’m in Tustin. Maybe Napa?
Depends ..do you have an external oil filter? If not then you need to drain the oil, drop the oil plate, remove two gaskets and strainer, clean the strainer and reassemble. Best way to tighten the 10mm acorn nuts is with a short 1/4" ratchet and just tighten with your pinky finger... Regular 30 weight oil with zinc content.... there will be other oil opinions.
@Popee posted:Ok guys, and gals, I’m going to change my oil. Does the complete oil drain circle have to be removed or can I just drain the oil thru the bolt in the middle? It shows an oil strainer, I have an external oil filter and oil cooler. Should I use a synthetic oil or regular oil?
Where can I find the gaskets needed for the oil change? I’m in Tustin. Maybe Napa?
You can just drain through the bolt (drain plug) in the middle. Make sure the engine is warm/hot so the oil will drain easily. Valvoline VR1 Racing oil 20-50 (5 qt) and a Napa 1515 gold filter should get you going. Oil discussions can go on forever, but the important thing for our cars is that the oil have higher levels of zinc and phosphorus to aid in lubrication.
I suspect the only gasket you'll possibly need is for the oil drain plug. I use a 14mm oil drain plug gasket from Ace Hardware.
Cheers!
@Popee posted:Ok guys, and gals, I’m going to change my oil. Does the complete oil drain circle have to be removed or can I just drain the oil thru the bolt in the middle? It shows an oil strainer, I have an external oil filter and oil cooler. Should I use a synthetic oil or regular oil?
Where can I find the gaskets needed for the oil change? I’m in Tustin. Maybe Napa?
Echoing the previous posts; since you have an external oil filter it is not imperative you drop the strainer every time, and of course we assume you are changing the oil filter. However if it has been a long time since this was done there is no harm in dropping it to see if there’s any bigger particles.
Ok guys, I’m going in. Thanks for the help. You think 5 quarts?
A stock VW engine uses 2.5 quarts. If you have an add-on sump, that adds to the amount needed as does the filter.
Ok, that sounds right. Thanks for your help.
Can’t find anything on the back of the shroud about the engine size.
Using Valvoline racing 20-50 and a Fram HP1 oil filter.
One final note seems appropriate: If you drop the screen plate, and I would recommend doing so at least once, just to see. How many miles on the engine??. New gaskets, of course. Lots of VW parts suppliers on the web. Autozone and Advance Auto, NAPA, et al. may be able to supply also. I use some red silicone on these (as well as other gaskets and such where I want the oil to stay on the inside). The admonition to just go snug on all those little nuts that hold the plate in place is very good advice. Stripping out the studs in that aluminum case will ruin your day, and several more to follow. You will have to learn all about Helicoils.
The displacement number on the back of the fan shroud was done by an engine builder called Ronald Rascon (RIP). If your engine wasn’t built by him or if the shroud was swapped later (like in my case) you won’t see the number. You will be fine with the oil you chose; there’s quite a few alternatives.
I have a deeper sump with an external cooler and external filter, just like you.
I remove the old spin-on filter and then fill the new filter with fresh oil before I spin it on (mine spins on with the threads at the top - If yours is horizontal or other than threads up, ignore all this).
Pour fresh oil into the center well of the filter up to the top, let it settle and repeat a few times until it slows down while settling, then smear a little oil on the filter's rubber o-ring and spin it on. Why do I do all this? Because the engine oil pump would have to push air out of the new filter with pumped oil from the sump. I'm shortening that air interval by pre-loading the filter with oil.
The engine case takes 2.5 quarts. Valvoline VR1 Racing oil 20-50 (5 qt)
If all you can find is 10W-40 that is OK, too (I use 10W-40).
The deeper sump takes about another quart (not quite).
The filter takes about 2/3's of a quart. (NAPA Gold 1515)
All this adds up to about 4-1/2 quarts or so.
Once everything is buttoned up, start it up and let it idle for a minute or two, then shut it off, wait a minute or two and check the oil level on the dipstick. Most of us keep the oil level centered between the lo and full marks on the dipstick. Often, if you raise the oil level to the full mark the engine will pressurize the case and push oil out the dipstick tube or elsewhere. This is minimized by running it in the middle of the range and besides - with the deeper sump there is nothing to worry about.
Hope this helps! Gordon
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And as long as we old farts are gathered around the digital campfire exchanging old oil stories, there's this to keep in mind, too.
The 'high' and 'low' marks on the dipstick were, of course, calibrated for the stock VW engine — with no extended sump. When you bolt on an extended sump, the 'low' mark is no longer nearly as low as it used to be. When it says 'low', you now still have lots of oil in your extended sump. You could probably run the car with the oil at 'low' all the time without mucking anything up.
But, don't do that. Just keep in mind what those marks are now telling you.
I also have an extended sump, external filter, external cooler, and all the external oil lines that connect it all together. All of that holds about 4.5 quarts.
So five quarts should more than do you. Pour in about 3.5 quarts, fire it up and idle a bit to fill up the filter, cooler, connecting lines and such. Shut it down and check the dipstick. That should tell you how much more to add. It's still about a quart twixt low and high.
And, as noted above, you'll probably want to run it a skosh below the 'high' mark to keep the crank from frothing things up. It's plenty OK to do that now, since you've got so much more oil than any original engine did.
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Also, different extended sumps have different capacities. Probably 2.5 quart is most common but some hold 4 quarts or more.
Looks like it’s going to take 5.5-6quarts, after adding 5 quarts it’s still half way up the low level. Back to Auto Zone for another quart.
Thanks to all,
It was a piece of cake.
Popee
@Sacto Mitch posted:.And as long as we old farts are gathered around the digital campfire exchanging old oil stories, there's this to keep in mind, too.
The 'high' and 'low' marks on the dipstick were, of course, calibrated for the stock VW engine — with no extended sump. When you bolt on an extended sump, the 'low' mark is no longer nearly as low as it used to be. When it says 'low', you now still have lots of oil in your extended sump. You could probably run the car with the oil at 'low' all the time without mucking anything up.
Because he's a "half-full" kind of guy, our fearless leader Mitch is giving the Chinese dipstick makers cabal the benefit of the calibration doubt. It's good to remember, however, that the engines on the vast majority of engines in Speedster replicas are built up from parts, not from any particular core.
This means that the case was an Autolinea from Brazil (most likely) and that the heads are either Brazilian, Mexican, or Chinese cores... unless of course, they were cast in the USA (Mofoco, etc.).
The cams are from the USA, but the lifters could be from anywhere... and on and on until we get to the "bits" - the engine tin, the alternator stand, the dipstick, et al. These are almost universally EMPI parts, made with all the care and pride you would suppose would be mustered up by a 3rd world peasant working for 16 hours/day in an East Asian "factory" at a rate not to exceed $1/hr.
(the aforementioned is way closer to the truth than anybody "looking for a deal" is willing to admit)
... but I digress. The end product of this 21st century global commerce is dipsticks which may (or may not) actually indicate the optimal oil level in any given crankcase, given (as is the situation) that neither the case manufacturer nor the dipstick maker knows which part will go where (creating a situation where nobody knows their dipstick from a hole in the ground).
On my Type 1s with extended sumps (not the dry-sump motors), I try to keep the oil level high enough to keep the pickup covered and low enough that there isn't a bunch of windage. You'll know when the oil level is too high when the crank pulley area looks like the Exxon Valdez. I don't like to run it lower than the bottom mark... but again, the marks are somewhat arbitrary.
I like the thinline sumps - Scat sells one that uses the stock sump-plate gasket, CB makes one that uses a size giant sump-plate. I'd get the 1-1/2 qt. thin-line from either one.
Forewarned is forearmed. Be well.
Ok, found bushings missing on the rear (sway bar)? See picture. Where can I get these? Anyone have a picture of the normal way these look?
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@Popee posted:Ok, found bushings missing on the rear (sway bar)? See picture. Where can I get these? Anyone have a picture of the normal way these look?
That's a swaybar on a swing-axle rear end, which I find to be somewhat terrifying. You really don't want a rear swaybar on a swing-axle.
I'd take it off. Legit - for safety's sake, please take it off and get a Camber Compensator from CB Performance.
*Click on the blue font. It's a link to what you want.
I recommend CIP as a source for bushings. I found these; not sure if they’ll fit:
no shortage of dipsticks on this forum
@barncobob posted:no shortage of dipsticks on this forum
He's here all week, folks! Try the chicken. Tip your waitstaff.
As Stan mentioned, you have what's called "Swing Arm" rear axles. When they go up and down over bumps, they move in an arc that starts at the transaxle. If you look at the upright angle of the rear tires as they go up and down, the line they follow is not straight. It follows a curve like the skin of a large beach ball. The attach point of your anti-sway bar is the bottom of the shock absorber and that will be swinging up and down in the same curve.
OK, so the anti-sway bar you have mounted on there is made for a different rear suspension - The so-called IRS version - that VW began shipping in 1969. That version doesn't have a tube covering the wheel drive shafts as you have, and has a pair of drive shafts with CV joints on both ends, allowing the wheel to go straight up and down without curving. The anti-sway bar you have is designed for that later axle version. It is not designed to follow a curve which would force the sway bar ends to squeeze in and out as it moves, along with traveling up and down and THAT is why it destroyed your red bushings - It is forcing them to move in a way they are not designed for and shattering them. Putting new ones in there will just shatter them all over again.
The cure is to completely remove that wrong anti-sway bar (you can probably sell it on here to someone with an IRS car) and replace it with what's called a "Camber Compensator" specifically designed for swing arm suspension, like this:
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/2819.htm
Or this:
https://www.jbugs.com/product/9615.html
You should notice a handling improvement when you get the camber compensator installed, especially on twistie roads at moderate speeds.
Great catch; thought it was a rear sway bar for a swingaxle; didn’t notice it is for IRS and wrongly installed in a swingaxle. I’d venture to say this install was done by a previous owner and not at the VS shop. VS hardly installed any sway bars in their cars (as I found out when I got mine).
Many, many years ago I bought an Addco sway bar that seemed to be for a swing axle car. I never used it and still have it.
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VS would install front sway bars as an option, and they looked swell when the car was at rest. Rolling down the road, though, they would interfere with the front bumper brackets, requiring some modification to the latter. But, again, parked in the garage, those sway bars looked just marvelous.
In the rear, the VS handling improvement option was the EMPI camber compensator (Gordon's second link above). And it too looked just swell - those red urethane pieces being the height of fashion. What I found, though, was that the screw holding the end pads on was somehow glued in place. Right up until the glue gave up, those pads, too, did look just marvelous.
I ordered a replacement pad and the glue on that one fared no better. Eventually, I gave up and removed the whole deal when we swapped out transaxles (a whole nother story).
So, I would vote as many times as the law will allow for the CB Performance compensator (Gordon's first link).
Life is too short to place it in the hands of EMPI.
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WOW, awesome information guys. So I’m removing the sway bar and installing a CB performance compensator.
Whats this sway bar worth?
Again, such valuable information. Thanks a Bugzillion.
Popee
BTW what’s an IRS, independent rear suspension?
@Popee posted:WOW, awesome information guys. So I’m removing the sway bar and installing a CB performance compensator.
Whats this sway bar worth?
Again, such valuable information. Thanks a Bugzillion.
Popee
New, with good bushings, CIP1 sells them for $152 (again, the blue font is a link). Shipping is free for orders over $99 with that outfit.
If you decide you want to go to the trouble, you might want try to sell to somebody local to you, as I'm sure it'll be $50+ to ship.
Good luck.
Yes; IRS is independent rear suspension. You will need to modify the center bracket a bit on the CB unit to make it fit but it is great quality and made in the US. Better than the EMPI unit.
What kind of modifications are needed?
The center bracket that bolts to the bottom of the transaxle is of a thick gage of metal and it needs to be opened up a little in order to make it fit but it’s not the end of the world. Just need to take out some material. We had to do that on a friend’s ‘67 Bug.
Well, I learned something here: IRS vs swing-axel :: sway bar vs camber compensator. I never had that sorted. My car is IRS so at least I know what I have: a sway bar. Works great. As to bushings, I have a note to add. The polyurethane ones (often red) sounded like a good thing. Turns out: nuh-uh. They are stiffer, so maybe more responsive, if that is even an issue. I dunno. But I do know that stiffer can mean brittle, either after a while (lots of flexing, or just age.) And so the ones I have in back crumbled, as it looks like yours did. The better material is neoprene rubber, so I recommend that to those who might need. I got some that work at my local Do-It-Best hardware store. Seems to work fine.
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I just heard the best joke on HVAC dealers HVAC really means that when they retire @Stan Galat.
HVAC. Hawaii Vacations Are Coming. ! Watch out Hawaii 
@Popee, the illustration in your classified ad says it is for swing axle cars. The pieces shown look like what I bought many years ago that was sold for a swing axle car. The swing axle package includes the shown 90-degree u-bolts that fit through drilled holes in the frame horns. IRS sway bars don't use these.
Whether or not people think they are a good idea, I really think this is a bar for a swing-axle car.
Well several fourm users said this is for a IRS setup. It was causing a horrible clatter and clunking on my swing arm car going over driveways and speed bumps. After several shops couldn’t figure out the noise issue I removed the sway bar and problem solved. Suggestions were to add a Camber Compensator which is the right application for a swing arm chassis. Car is driving great so I’m not adding the compensator.
@Popee posted:Well several fourm users said this is for a IRS setup. It was causing a horrible clatter and clunking on my swing arm car going over driveways and speed bumps. After several shops couldn’t figure out the noise issue I removed the sway bar and problem solved. Suggestions were to add a Camber Compensator which is the right application for a swing arm chassis. Car is driving great so I’m not adding the compensator.
You are correct, that is for an IRS car, Ron. A swing axle car uses a camber compensator that looks like this:
Although on Shop Talk Forums the writer says a Z-bar can be used on a swing axle car also. Here is the link: https://www.shoptalkforums.com...php?t=122651Although they don't really become engaged until it's almost too late. If you have a swing axle just get the camber compensator. https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/2819.htm
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Camber compensators are added for extra peace of mind but if you’re not driving aggressively most probably you don’t need it; especially when these cars ride lower and the risk of the wheels tucking under and making the car roll over is less.
@Popee posted:Suggestions were to add a Camber Compensator which is the right application for a swing arm chassis. Car is driving great so I’m not adding the compensator.
@Impala posted:Camber compensators are added for extra peace of mind but if you’re not driving aggressively most probably you don’t need it; especially when these cars ride lower and the risk of the wheels tucking under and making the car roll over is less.
Sure.
You probably don't need a crush cage or similar in your steering column either. I mean, who'd going to crash anyhow? I'd drop the insurance too - there's no point, really.
The car IS pretty low to the ground, so it's not like you might roll the car in an overcorrection. Your roads are perfect, right? Besides, the sway bar everybody told you to take off didn't do anything - what makes us think the right part will work any better?
I mean, who has $108 for something that might save their life? That's money you can spend on more important things, like a dinner at Chili's or a half-tank of gas in a pickup truck.
Back in my day, we weren't sissies. People died in crashes like men, and we were better for it.
You're right; when swapping my steering wheel and column to a '57 unit I had to do away with the crush cage. And yes I have a camber compensator and a front anti sway bar unit that I had to add because the car didn't have one from the shop where it was built. The roads aren't too bad here but they're not perfect; Puerto Rico and New Orleans were real disasters as I recall. And yes; I just increased my insurance with Hagerty.
On 11/6/20@Stan Galat posted:It's a swing-axle car. Please don't ever forget that. Your biggest problem is not body roll, it's snap oversteer-- especially if the engine is heavier than stock (and if it's a Subaru or a T1 built on an AL case, it's heavier). If I had a swing-axle car (and I haven't since 2002), I'd bolt on a good camber compensator, some limit-straps, or both-- and just run the stock 1/2" VW bar in the front, if I ran anything at all. A swing-axle car is not likely to be a canyon racer (if you want that, get IRS) and a 3/4 bar will just make it ride like a log-wagon.
On 12/3/20@Stan Galat posted:I'm sticking with my advice, because it might save somebody's life. If you've got a swing-axle car-- get a stock sway-bar and a camber compensator, even if all you are doing is profiling down to the DQ on a Friday evening. It's like decent brakes-- you never know when you'll need 'em.
On 1/4/23@Stan Galat posted:That's a swaybar on a swing-axle rear end, which I find to be somewhat terrifying. You really don't want a rear swaybar on a swing-axle.
I'd take it off. Legit - for safety's sake, please take it off and get a Camber Compensator from CB Performance.
*Click on the blue font. It's a link to what you want.
On 1/29/23@Stan Galat posted:I think we went over this recently. If it has a swing axle, there should not be a rear swaybar at all. Period.
Take it off and install a camber compensator.
I could keep doing this all afternoon, but I'm not sure what it would accomplish. It's the same advice over and over and over.
Please read this, from page 2 onward. (< that's a link, click it) The life you save may be your own.
I know I'm hammering on this, but I'm hammering on it for good reason. Snap oversteer can kill you. It really can. Getting the right stuff on the car is more important than almost anything else you can do.
I've been saying this since the first time Popee posted, and (as you can see above) since long before then. Guys on this forum have rolled their car and died. Don't be that guy. It's a hundred and ten bucks. I can't see any reason not to do it.
"It's a hundred and ten bucks. I can't see any reason not to do it."
Truer words were never spoken. Just do it.
Get the CB Performance unit that’s been shown before. Better quality at great price and US made.
When I said the rear sway bar was intended for a swing axle car, as indicated by the Jbugs illustration, I wasn't advocating its use. But, I think anyone buying it should be clear what it is.
A typical IRS rear sway bar attaches to the torsion bar tubes, not the frame horns as the illustrated bar does.
A swing axle car is not any more or less likely to flip because of ride height. In an extreme corner, the outside suspension is forced to extend into positive camber, then the tire digs in and you flip.
A compensator won't fit on my Vintage Spyder, so I have nylon limit straps that prevent too much positive camber.
A factory VW Z-bar was 1968 only, and IMHO was somewhat useless. An aftermarket Z-bar can be very effective. There is a guy in my Vee group who runs a 1970 Caldwell D-13 with 2 shocks and a Z bar. He is usually in the top 5.
But for my money, I'd just buy the CB compensator. You don't have to think about it, test it, or tweak it. Just purchase it and bolt it on. It's your life, though, not mine.
@Alan Merklin posted:Best way to tighten the 10mm acorn nuts is with a short 1/4" ratchet and just tighten with your pinky finger...
I use a 1/4” driver handle. Almost impossible to get enough torque to strip them. Especially with greasy hands. And for me, it gives me a better feel for even torque between the nuts.
And, as always, star pattern.
The post above seems to be referring to the oil drain plate, a case of sudden thread drift. I have a tiny little torque wrench that could be used. I bought it to use on my C-channel valve covers so I wouldn't cut through the gaskets.
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Dammit Stan, here I am comfortable in my bubble of rationalizations and you have to come along and poke it full of holes.
I ordered 'camber compensator' on my original VS build sheet and received the EMPI one — with the snappy-looking red pads. It didn't seem to be very effective at controlling axle swing and started falling apart from day one. When it interfered with one of the transaxle mounts, putting in the five-speed, I ditched it altogether and have been going without ever since.
Not that I haven't wanted something back there minding rear-end excursions, though. I've come to live with the, uh, peculiarities of an unrestricted swing axle suspension in a tail-heavy car. To survive, you need to learn where that magic tipping point is and how to stay away from it at all costs. When you get a little too close, that squirrelly feeling gets your attention right quick and immediately puts you on your best behavior.
DON'T BRAKE! EASE YOUR LINE! COUNTER STEER! STAY SMOOTH!
I think it's really a question of controlling weight transfer. Everything is balanced and then the road falls away in a way you hadn't anticipated, or you miscalculate and have to suddenly tighten your line, or an unseen pothole changes your plans. You need a strategy for coping if you're to survive. For me, it usually means cornering slower than the car could otherwise manage when on roads I don't know well. Not good, but the way I've chosen to live with swing axles.
But I didn't know there were other options, like travel-limiting straps that don't have to mount to the transaxle. What might be a good place to look for such stuff or do you roll your own?
This is one of those things I've been lazy about for too long.
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Mitch I think you’d need a new base plate made and mmmm for it anyway. The shape of the 5 speed might be too exotic for it.
@Sacto Mitch posted:.I didn't know there were other options, like travel-limiting straps that don't have to mount to the transaxle. What might be a good place to look for such stuff or do you roll your own?
This is one of those things I've been lazy about for too long.
@DannyP would be the guy to ask. I went IRS and never looked back.
Pacific Customs has limit straps.
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Thanks, Rick.
These look straightforward and cheap enough. The question is what to mount them to. The obvious thing is a frame member just above the axle on either side that is part of the 2x2 framing added to the vw pan to support the fiberglass body.
But that of course was never engineered to support sudden down forces from the suspension (if there was any 'engineering' involved in its design at all).
I could see this resulting in a mechanism for automatically introducing butt sag.
On balance, if I have to choose between irs and five-speed, I'm happier with the poison I've already taken.
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@Sacto Mitch posted:.
Thanks, Rick.
These look straightforward and cheap enough. The question is what to mount them to. The obvious thing is a frame member just above the axle on either side that is part of the 2x2 framing added to the vw pan to support the fiberglass body.
But that of course was never engineered to support sudden down forces from the suspension (if there was any 'engineering' involved in its design at all).
I could see this resulting in a mechanism for automatically introducing butt sag.
On balance, if I have to choose between irs and five-speed, I'm happier with the poison I've already taken.
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Right off the shock mounts. Get longer bolts and spacers.
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Mitch, you have a Berg 5, no? Since you still have a swing axle, I'm going to assume yes.
The trans is the same, except for the special Berg nosecone to house 5th gear. Same case, same gear housing. So the attachment of a camber compensator should be exactly the same.
As far as limit straps, the shock attachments are a good spot. On my car, I used the upper shock bolt and wrapped the strap around the axle tube. Carlos did the same, with fixed length straps and a bracket which was simply sheet steel wrapped around the axle tube. I keep mine such that each wheel can only go about 5 or 10 degrees positive camber. What you don't want is the wheels to hang all the way down at the full length of the shock. The shock is what limits travel in the first place, so a natural place to use.
If you really wanted to, you could convert both your car's suspension and trans to IRS. The trans would need a new differential, side covers, bearings and such. But the trans wouldn't even need to be completely taken apart. You'd need IRS trailing arms and have to weld trailing arm mounts to your torsion tubes. And new double-jointed axles. You know you want to...
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@DannyP posted:Mitch, you have a Berg 5, no?...
Yup.
...you could convert both your car's suspension and trans to IRS....
...The trans would need a new differential, side covers, bearings and such....
Uh, well, that would mean first installing new kitchen countertops, cabinets, and appliances, if you follow my drift, so more costly than you might imagine...
...You'd need IRS trailing arms and have to weld trailing arm mounts to your torsion tubes. And new double-jointed axles...
See above remarks re: kitchen countertops, etc.
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Here is what my strap looks like. Like Danny, I have a Vintage framed Spyder.
I can adjust them by sliding the muffler clamp up or down the axle tube.
I think I got everything from Summit.
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@Sacto Mitch, what year pan was your car built on? If 1969 and later, the IRS mounts will already be there.
Mitch, I definitely hear that. Why is it always a new kitchen? Happens to be the most expensive room in the house...
If you can find new appliances, hard-surface countertops, and cabinets for the price of an IRS conversion, I'd like to do business with your contractor. I'll take 100 of them.
That's at least $50K at a bare minimum- and that's moving no appliances, and certainly no plumbing.
Kitchens are where money goes to die, and the cost has almost nothing to do with functionality. The old cabinets and appliances will not kill you in a roll-over, they just aren't stylish enough for the average American woman (who doesn't really want to cook anymore anyhow).
People who spend >$50K on custom cabinets crack me up. Even moderately priced box cabinets almost never wear out anymore - they just go out of style and MUST be replaced (or painted, at this point in the HGTV universe). Counters even more so. A formica countertop will outlast most of mankind's sojourn on this blue ball, but the landfills are full of them because the white women of North America require quarried countertops of a very specific color and grain. Often, even that isn't enough - the quartz counters need to go, because granite is the thing now. I've seen people pull out hard surface counters because they didn't like the edge profile.
Maybe Mitch needs to put on his big-boy slacks, take a stiff swig of lambrusco and tell Mrs. Toll that not flipping and dying in the clown car is probably worth more than that planet-saving politburo-approved induction cooktop, even though it will likely cost less
... then go hide in the garage.
Love your rant Mr. Galat! 🤣 You are absolutely and unequivocally correct as in most of the time 😂. I wonder how much of a kitchen remodel you can buy with the $108 for a camber compensator.
@Impala posted:I wonder how much of a kitchen remodel you can buy with the $108 for a camber compensator.
... perhaps a new toaster, if you don't need anything fancy.
@Stan Galat said: The old cabinets and appliances ...... just aren't stylish enough for the average American woman (who doesn't really want to cook anymore anyhow)."
That's how I got my garage shop cabinets:
My contractor son-in-law calls me one day and tells me he's doing a kitchen renovation including all new cabinets in a '70's home and did I want the old ones he's taking out? "They look really nice, but she wants glass front units, instead - And not white."
So I go get them and later find out that the previous owner had a new kitchen installed in order to sell the house. The cabinets they were taking out weren't even two years old! Self-closing drawers, HD ball bearing glides everywhere, dual rotating corner units, Birch Veneer (not paint), the works. I added LED bench lights under the hanging units (they're wicked bright) and did a simple counter top (I hope, someday, to find some used oak flooring to install as a better counter top) and that was it. The new owner lady is happy, and so am I!
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Nice! How fortuitous.
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Stan, thanks for your succinct and eloquent statement of The Car Guy Manifesto, which is generally delivered with greatest passion from the safety of the garage, the pub, or forums like this which (for reasons I'll never understand) are generally peopled with grumpy old men and with younger men in training to be grumpy and old.
I know I risk my membership in good standing here by observing that the Speedster sits polished and ready in our garage, having had its every need lovingly addressed over the past 10 years, while our 35-year-old laminate countertops show obvious signs of aging and neglect.
It is one of the paradoxes of modern life that the more we work on the infrastructure of the garage, at the expense of the infrastructure of the kitchen, the more time we are likely to spend sequestered in the garage.
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I can't decide if I'm old and grumpy or just training to be old and grumpy, Mitch. Help a brother out?
In other news - 35 year old counters? I thought you lived in Kalifornia. Isn't it in the state charter that every kitchen must be remodeled every 5 years, under penalty of law?
You better get some stone from a European quarry before the cops find out.
P.S. - I would be remis to fail to point out that every need has not been lovingly addressed, @Sacto Mitch, which was the subject of this entire conversation. Please get something to prevent wheel tuck. You're too important to this site to lose.
@Gordon Nichols posted:@Stan Galat said: The old cabinets and appliances ...... just aren't stylish enough for the average American woman (who doesn't really want to cook anymore anyhow)."
That's how I got my garage shop cabinets:
My contractor son-in-law calls me one day and tells me he's doing a kitchen renovation including all new cabinets in a '70's home and did I want the old ones he's taking out? "They look really nice, but she wants glass front units, instead - And not white."
So I go get them and later find out that the previous owner had a new kitchen installed in order to sell the house. The cabinets they were taking out weren't even two years old! Self-closing drawers, HD ball bearing glides everywhere, dual rotating corner units, Birch Veneer (not paint), the works. I added LED bench lights under the hanging units (they're wicked bright) and did a simple counter top (I hope, someday, to find some used oak flooring to install as a better counter top) and that was it. The new owner lady is happy, and so am I!
Absolute score!!!
Thanks to you two you made my morning light and I chuckled, but then I thought about the guys who spend days shining their Harley rather than shining their… and end up permanently in the garage or the dog house…. aren’t the choices and seasons of life fun
Been training for old and grumpy for a while :h)
@Sacto Mitch posted:.
Stan, thanks for your succinct and eloquent statement of The Car Guy Manifesto, which is generally delivered with greatest passion from the safety of the garage, the pub, or forums like this which (for reasons I'll never understand) are generally peopled with grumpy old men and with younger men in training to be grumpy and old.
I know I risk my membership in good standing here by observing that the Speedster sits polished and ready in our garage, having had its every need lovingly addressed over the past 10 years, while our 35-year-old laminate countertops show obvious signs of aging and neglect.
It is one of the paradoxes of modern life that the more we work on the infrastructure of the garage, at the expense of the infrastructure of the kitchen, the more time we are likely to spend sequestered in the garage.
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If the plywood is good there’s no reason not to just swap the laminate. There are so much many more choices in terms of laminate these days than 35 years ago. And that goes for the cabinets themselves. But somehow some people think doing that is not as good as getting something totally new or stone or solid surfacing material. Many times you get something new that doesn’t even hold a candle to the quality in the material (old growth wood in many cases) and craftsmanship on an old set of cabinets. Unnecessary waste compounded by paying up the wazoo while not getting a good quality product all in the name of being trendy. There; I vented 😉
I am in the midst of refacing 2 bathroom vanity cabinets. This involves putting new veneer over the cabinet frames and replacing the doors and drawer fronts. It is much less costly than replacing the cabinets.
@Stan Galat posted:... perhaps a new toaster, if you don't need anything fancy.
I recommend Smeg , we have one
After my IM, I had to renovate the kitchen, then terrace the whole yard, get a swim spa and a hot tub and a deck set. Enough said
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@Michael McKelvey posted:I am in the midst of refacing 2 bathroom vanity cabinets. This involves putting new veneer over the cabinet frames and replacing the doors and drawer fronts. It is much less costly than replacing the cabinets.
Ahhhhhh.......... Methinks I see a precursor to some new Speedster part or accessory being worked in hopes of tacit approval.
I hope it works, Mike!
I showed a few of these posts to "She who must be obeyed" and got a chuckle out of her. Evidently our shenanigans are no secret to our beloveds, but they are keeping score.
@Michael Pickett posted:I showed a few of these posts to "She who must be obeyed" and got a chuckle out of her. Evidently our shenanigans are no secret to our beloveds, but they are keeping score.
You KNOW they keep score; and sometimes they let you know decades after the fact.
@Michael Pickett posted:I showed a few of these posts to "She who must be obeyed" and got a chuckle out of her. Evidently our shenanigans are no secret to our beloveds, but they are keeping score.
Yes and the dollar value or your extravangance. and yes the memory is long .....
@Impala "You KNOW they keep score; and sometimes they let you know decades after the fact."
@Gordon Nichols, I don't think it was that kind of a trade. But, it is keeping me from working on the Speedster.
I totally repainted one bathroom and touched up the other where a mirror was removed. I installed new mirrors, new light fixtures, and 4 new faucets. Each new faucet took a surprising amount of time with my body contorted inside the vanity cabinet. Finally, the cabinet refacing. I thought I was about done with one when I discovered I was sent 2 right doors instead of a right and a left for both cabinets.
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So, to recap here, of the many options available to me, including new differential gears and bearings, granite countertops, Delft tile ventilator hood surrounds, welded trailing arm brackets, designer toasters, and new cabinet laminate, the most workable and elegant solution seems to me the limiting straps installed by @Carlos G.
There might yet be some conflicts with that frame member that supports the body or brake lines, but I'll consult with Northern California's most eminent aircooled VW specialist for some hands on advice.
As for personal safety, I believe it was Stan himself who recently scolded that unless we live life on the edge, we're not really living it. And what could be closer to the edge, figuratively and literally, than not knowing for certain just how we're going to exit any given corner? Swing axles just naturally make every breath we draw on this earth that much more precious. We may not live as long, but we will have truly experienced the tree or bridge abutment that takes us out.
IRS smacks too much of the safe, certain, and predictable. It is modern, nanny engineering depriving us of the freedom to be wild and free.
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@Michael McKelvey posted:I totally repainted one bathroom and touched up the other where a mirror was removed. I installed new mirrors, new light fixtures, and 4 new faucets. Each new faucet took a surprising amount of time with my body contorted inside the vanity cabinet. Finally, the cabinet refacing. I thought I was about done with one when I discovered I was sent 2 right doors instead of a right and a left for both cabinets.
New Tools! Yah gotta think about the new tools you'll need to do these interior renovations!
When we were in South Carolina we decided to upgrade a half bath downstairs. It was nicely placed, but outdated and kinda "blah" looking. So we got the new vanity and lights and sink and toilet and beadboard wainscoating and molding for the beadboard and as I'm pushing my loaded cart to the checkout, I spied a combo-pack of a contractor's compressor along with a pneumatic finish nailer, brad nailer and stapler, all on sale for about 50% off. I don't know how, but that combo-pack ended up on my cart!
Plus, in the 30 minutes it took me to get home, I came up with a few more things we could do with them after the half bath was done. Perfect!
I have Milwaukee hankering. You?
@Sacto Mitch posted:... As for personal safety, I believe it was Stan himself who recently scolded that unless we live life on the edge, we're not really living it. And what could be closer to the edge, figuratively and literally, than not knowing for certain just how we're going to exit any given corner? Swing axles just naturally make every breath we draw on this earth that much more precious. We may not live as long, but we will have truly experienced the tree or bridge abutment that takes us out.
IRS smacks too much of the safe, certain, and predictable. It is modern, nanny engineering depriving us of the freedom to be wild and free.
I wondered when my apparent contradiction (regarding risk) would be pointed out, and I love that it's my friend from Sacramento doing the pointing... as it was his parable of the cow which set us clucking like hens regarding buffhoonery on the public roadway. But here he is advocating for a suspension system he knows to be fundamentally flawed, precisely because it's flawed, which sets up an interesting (to me at least) discussion.
I don't think either of us are being intellectually dishonest, but think each of us are picking our respective poisons. The nuances between the approach of the antihoons and my own is that I'm not embracing a known flaw - I'm thumbing my nose at rules created for the lowest common denominator among us. I know things could go sideways, but it won't be with my equipment. My kit is solid.
I can't hoon in any kind of "good conscience" (as if that were possible, but stay with me) if I'm trying to "stop worrying and learn to love the bomb" by embracing a bad design. Mitch can, and does so with eloquence.
As such, it makes sense that he would advocate for antihoonery, because in running an uncontrolled swing-axle it is enough for him to feel like he's living on the edge - because he IS living on the edge in a contraption with known (but perfectly fixable) flaws.
I'll happily put my life on the line, but would prefer that the device I'm using not be the reason for the "iffy" state of things.
I'd get limit straps or a camber compensator if I were Mitch... but then again, I'd probably remodel the kitchen and convert to IRS.
If possible to fit would a camber compensator be preferable to the straps?
The Berg-5 mid-mount might be a complication but it seems like compensator mount could be modified to fit.
@Michael McKelvey posted:If possible to fit would a camber compensator be preferable to the straps?
The Berg-5 mid-mount might be a complication but it seems like compensator mount could be modified to fit.
I would think. The camber compensator is actively pulling down on the axle.
But I'm a belt and suspenders guy - I'd probably run both if I could. The limit straps makes it pretty much impossible to tuck.
I don't know about all this. I've driven with Mitch and he certainly isn't driving on the edge or anywhere within a 1K of the edge. But he looks way cooler driving that far from the edge than I do driving on it, so there's that.
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OK, I may have been waxing hyperbolic a bit.
I've had this ride for a while and, like any ride, you learn the limits and how to stay within them. I've driven an IRS IM and while the extra grip was there, the planted feeling of the back end was the difference I noticed the most.
But I just can't justify the expense and the time off the road it would take to convert this car to IRS. For me, it's just not worth it. I think what I've got probably handles pretty close to the original car (in stock, street trim) and I do like the idea of getting the most out of that. It is very light, very low, and very flat in corners, and that makes it quicker than it has any right to be. You can even use power-on oversteer and some sliding to tighten your line out of corners if you're careful. Compare this to the handling of, say, a 1955 Chevy or Buick (or Mercedes sedan) and you begin to understand why it was considered a performance machine in its day.
Anyway, I'm doing me. The car is a kind of time machine. I cinch myself in, check the gauges, yell "Clear" over the windscreen, fire it up, do my preflight checks and runup as the oil warms, roll across the tarmac, and climb out into a light morning overcast over Duxford. As it is, with the current engine and gearbox, it's perfect for me and how I use it.
The limit straps do sound like a good idea, though.
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