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I think it's been posted before so if anybody knows where I can find VMC's build sheet for their 2332 and can post the link, or failing that, if someone has a copy and can post it I would really appreciate it.                                                                                    Thanks in advance.  Al

"older Intermeccanica Speedster (still under wraps in the garage) a pic wouldn't show much,what with all the junk piled on it..."



On a lifelong mission (much to my wife's dismay) to prove that immaturity is forever!



"Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."- Colin Chapman

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Here is what I received from VMC when I purchased last year...

Upgraded 2332cc Aircooled Engine Specs
AS 41 Engine case opened for 94mm cylinders
Brand new 84mm Counter weighted crank
12v Chromoly lightened Flywheel
New H beam rods
VM2 cam for Solex carbs
New German lifters
USA Made cam gear
94mm AA piston & cylinders
8mm chromoly head studs
26mm Shadak oil pump with full flow cover
New Dual port Heads with 40x35.5 valves and single high rev springs
1:1 Rockers with Stock adjusters and solid shafts
Stock bolt on valve covers
8.2:1 compression ratio
Engine is fully balanced
Valvoline VR1 10/30 oil
CB Magna Spark Ignition
NGK D6EA Spark plugs

@Revelstoker and @Jon T-  Thanks guys!  We were talking about getting more power or 'hopping up' Greg's 2332 in this thread here and 1 thing I missed was going to 1.25 rockers.  The higher ratio rockers will extend the duration a little (add 200? 300? rpm to the top end) as well as add more lift (and more power).  The next time either of you are talking to Greg if you could ask about the camshaft specs (advertised duration, dur @ .050" cam lift) or what cam it is I'd really appreciate it.  Anyone else talking to Greg at Vintage Motorcars California- please help me out here!

Instead of separating the case for a new cam, upgrading to 1.25- 1.3 rockers (along with the improvement in carburetion and as long as the heads and exhaust are adequate) may give a noticeable power increase.  I'm not certain, but I'm guessing that because of the Kadrons the cam is mild enough that adding the higher ratio rockers is possible, but the only way to know for sure is to know what cam is in the engine- that's why I want to know it's specs.

PS- Taking the heads off and getting them flycut for a slight compression rise would be a good idea too but may be too daunting for someone new to this game.  It would certainly be worthwhile, though, if you're looking to get everything you can out of the engine.  Then you could save the cam change and head re-work for NEXT winter!

Last edited by ALB

The ‘standard’ 2332 build from Pat//Greg is serving me perfectly.  It has enough power to be fun but not so much to beg me into stupid behavior, and it has enough low end torque to almost let me forget about the compromises of a 4 speed.  It also sounds wonderful (the A1 single center exhaust helps), and with the Solex/Kadrons I stand a good chance of enjoying relatively low maintenance for quite some time.  It is just what I hoped it would be.

If I did want appreciably more power, I probably would have spent the extra money on a 2.5l subbie…or a different car.

@DannyP posted:

Al, I agree with you mostly. But this engine is actually built by Pat Downs. I'd suggest leaving it alone. He knows more than we do.

This 2332 VMC engine runs aluminum pushrods. Depending on spring pressures, a change of rockers might also require a pushrod change.

@MikeM originally asked the question in this thread and while I agree with you that Pat Downs (one of the best engine builders around at the moment) has built a great combo with a very specific purpose, as I said in that thread-                                        "VMC advertises their 2332 as producing 145 hp- an engine this big is capable of substantially more, but Greg and Pat have designed/built a combo that puts out great power FROM IDLE TO REDLINE, is easy to take care of, and IS VERY HARD TO BREAK! (note the last 5 words- sooo important with new Speedster owners not mechanically inclined and/or familiar with VW engines!) "                                                                                                                      And yes, while I'm the first to admit Pat knows more about engines than I'll ever know (and he should, building engines for 35 years or more full time and being involved with and then probably running CB's engine development program for a good part of those years) that doesn't mean it can't be changed to suit one's tastes.  It's all a matter of knowing what's there and what to do to get the result you want.

And yes, maybe the aluminum pushrods have to go, but then, depending on what's there, maybe not.  I'm betting Pat's not building these things with huge spring pressures.  Revisiting what I said in the other thread, I'd wager (if I were actually a betting man) that these engines are done by 5,000 rpm (or very shortly after).  I'm also guessing somewhat conservative lift numbers (for a 40x35 head), not chasing every last hp, because thats' not what they're looking for- makes these engines easier to take care of and VERY HARD TO BREAK.  Who knows- maybe the aluminum pushrods can stay.

Yeah, I know what you said Al. And like I said, I mostly agree with you.

If I wanted appreciably more power I'd sell the VMC 2332 and start over with what you REALLY want.

I was skeptical of Panchitos in an over 2.0 liter motor(and I still feel that way). But then there's Anand's Spyder motor. It's a 2332(I think) with Panchitos and is making 200hp. I don't remember the specs or the cam/rockers used. But it's very impressive.

Looking at CB’s website, Pat seemed to make a consistent 180 hp with Panchito’s on a 2332 with 10:1 compression. On a motor closer to 2L, at a more conservative 9:1 compression, he seems to get around 150hp. This is with dual, twin throat webers.

If I was a betting man, I would guess the VMC 2332 is using a cam around 285 duration, with a total lift around .450”, and a compression ratio closer to 8.5:1.  Adding 1.25 rockers and dual webers would probably push the power up to 165 hp or so.

It's hard for some confirmed gearheads to wrap their heads around building an engine with nice parts, then leaving a bunch of power on the table - but there is a long and successful tradition of it. One need look no further than American cars pre-1973.

Sure, there were LT1s and Super Cobra-Jets, but there were a LOT of cars built with really, really mild cams, hydraulic lifters, and >400 cubic-inch V8s. Sometimes these engines had 2 bbl carbs on them. Not three 2 bbl carbs, one.

It's easy to chalk this up to lazy 'murican engineering, but the reasoning was that a low revving, torquey motor was a nice way to move a car down the road when absolute power is not the primary consideration.

This is not my jam, but it's perfect for guys who just want to get into their cars, twist the keys after sitting for 3 months, and go have an ice-cream cone. The entire thing is built around maximizing the Kadrons, which have a reputation of being anvil-simple and nearly 100% maintenance-free.

Kadrons are not perfect. They get horrible (really laughable) gas mileage, generally. The needle valves are typically bad (which is why they run 1-1/2 psi fuel pressure). They make up for an almost complete lack of a transition circuit by generally being set-up very rich, to fill in the low spots. They're workable, but far from ideal.

The entire thing could be solved with a nice, stand-alone EFI/crank-fire system, but the vast majority of people who do this are the kind of people with lathes and milling machines in their basements.

IMHO, if the air-cooled platform is going to survive as a viable alternative (and I don't think it will), we need an engine like Greg and Pat are building, with a better cam and a ready-made EFI/crank-fire system ready to be bolted. I personally think the ECU should be Mega-Jolt, since it can be mounted inside the engine compartment, but others will differ.

Regardless, I think Greg is doing something that should have been done years ago - cutting down the option sheet to a couple of engines - the type that (as they said on the video) 95% of the buyers will be happy with.

Even though I’m building a huge 2.65L Type 4 I’m going to tell Pat Downs to build it driveable and reliable. I figure with that much displacement there’s still plenty of opportunity for a reasonable amount of power. And if I want to go crazy I’ll just jump in the Spyder.
Talking about an engine that has squeezed out every possible cc of performance, I had the honor of driving Danny’s Spyder in Carlisle. Fasted type 1 I’ve ever driven. Bravo!

@DannyP posted:

Yeah, I know what you said Al. And like I said, I mostly agree with you.

If I wanted appreciably more power I'd sell the VMC 2332 and start over with what you REALLY want.

I was skeptical of Panchitos in an over 2.0 liter motor(and I still feel that way). But then there's Anand's Spyder motor. It's a 2332(I think) with Panchitos and is making 200hp. I don't remember the specs or the cam/rockers used. But it's very impressive.

Anand's Spyder engine made about 180 hp- iIrc it used an Eagle 2292 cam, 1.4 rockers, Panchitos with about 10:1 compression.  I think they hit the limit of the heads, as the hp figure was attained at about 6200 rpm and they didn't take the engine any higher (they probably did but there was nothing to report).  Normally you'd expect that cam to make power to 7,000 rpm or more.  I've heard it said before that 170-180 hp is all a 40 mm intake valve is capable of (in a VW head).

Last edited by ALB
@Stan Galat posted:

It's hard for some confirmed gearheads to wrap their heads around building an engine with nice parts, then leaving a bunch of power on the table - but there is a long and successful tradition of it. One need look no further than American cars pre-1973.

Sure, there were LT1s and Super Cobra-Jets, but there were a LOT of cars built with really, really mild cams, hydraulic lifters, and >400 cubic-inch V8s. Sometimes these engines had 2 bbl carbs on them. Not three 2 bbl carbs, one.

It's easy to chalk this up to lazy 'murican engineering, but the reasoning was that a low revving, torquey motor was a nice way to move a car down the road when absolute power is not the primary consideration.

This is not my jam, but it's perfect for guys who just want to get into their cars, twist the keys after sitting for 3 months, and go have an ice-cream cone. The entire thing is built around maximizing the Kadrons, which have a reputation of being anvil-simple and nearly 100% maintenance-free.

Kadrons are not perfect. They get horrible (really laughable) gas mileage, generally. The needle valves are typically bad (which is why they run 1-1/2 psi fuel pressure). They make up for an almost complete lack of a transition circuit by generally being set-up very rich, to fill in the low spots. They're workable, but far from ideal.

The entire thing could be solved with a nice, stand-alone EFI/crank-fire system, but the vast majority of people who do this are the kind of people with lathes and milling machines in their basements.

IMHO, if the air-cooled platform is going to survive as a viable alternative (and I don't think it will), we need an engine like Greg and Pat are building, with a better cam and a ready-made EFI/crank-fire system ready to be bolted. I personally think the ECU should be Mega-Jolt, since it can be mounted inside the engine compartment, but others will differ.

Regardless, I think Greg is doing something that should have been done years ago - cutting down the option sheet to a couple of engines - the type that (as they said on the video) 95% of the buyers will be happy with.

That is solid planning from Greg's side for those who want AC but want more stability and less thinkering.

I honestly can't figure out why it is so difficult for people to keep Webers in tune. It was surprising to hear Pat diss them. I do realize that I may have a better handle on them than most regular folks, as we seem to understand each other.

I don't recall a plugged idle jet in about 3 years.

You need:

Clean air filters(and leave them on once synched).

Clean fuel.

Recommend a stable and precise linkage.

Jet Doctors are helpful but not required.

Also recommend Spanish or Italian Webers. There was a time that the Asian copies REALLY sucked. They aren't so bad now, but they'll never be run on MY car.

The last thing you need is a little knowledge and understanding, but I can't help you with that so much.

I just want to clarify no bad intent towards Pat Downs or Greg Leach. I totally get the intended purpose and user-friendly design of the Vintage 2332. Torque and anvil-solid reliability. No muss no fuss driving.

About 5 years ago I installed dual Solex 35PDSIT carbs on an 1835cc sandrail. They haven't needed a single thing since installation. John Connolly pre-jetted them for me based on altitude and displacement.

Some(a few?) guys just want more and are willing to put up with some fickle engine behavior. I guess that's me.

FYI I did EFI for power and torque. There was absolutely nothing wrong with my carb setup. I am a tinkerer. I need things to tweak.

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