VS the VIN number doesn't fit to the car

You are right, a ball joint beam won't bolt up to an '65 and older pan (spacing is different), but they could have used a newer front pan half or even replaced the very front part (commonly called the Napoleon Hat, I believe).

King & link pin beam spacing- 2" between the top and bottom bolt holes                          Ball joint beam- 2 3/4" between top and bottom bolt holes

@ALB is correct. I don't believe Kirk used link pin front ends. The Napoleon Hat was replaced so that you could have a ball joint front end. IMO, ball joint front end is better to have then a link...

The coupe I am building is a 74' pan, but converted to a swing axle (versus IRS)...

All that matters is everything is straight and welded up correctly

Your original VW pan was cut in half about a foot in front of the tunnel stamped VIN when it was shortened 11".  So entire front could have been from another entire car - or the front bits could have been damaged/rusted and replaced.  I wonder if other countries could have also had different suspension builds.  It could be a South American (MX or Brazil) chassis.

IN US law says you can't alter the VIN.  Not sure where line is drawn on cutting out old VIN and welding in new --- especially since the weld marks from shortening is right near buy.

Now I had a deeper look on it. For me it seems in the front end of the car nothing is changed seriously. all the welds look original. And to be honest: VS is nor really famous for perfect welds...

In the end there are three possibilities left: the front end of the car is changed completely directly in front of the VIN (like Wolfgang mentioned) and the rear end is completely a 61 build; they really stamped in a old VIN into a 66+ chassis or they hired a perfect art welder at VS who can make his own work invisible.

Can you post any pics of what you are seeing?

Here's replacement front hunk -

I thought my car was a VS on a '65 pan and a link pin front end.  Maybe not ??

So I talked to the importer here in Germany. He told me that Vintage generally changes the front hunk of the pre 65 cars if you order break discs in the front cause these breaks only fits with the ball joint beam.

Does it make sense?

Jan Peter Stahl posted:

So I talked to the importer here in Germany. He told me that Vintage generally changes the front hunk of the pre 65 cars if you order break discs in the front cause these breaks only fits with the ball joint beam.

Does it make sense?

Yes. I have a 1960 chassis with ball joints and iirc it should have link pin so mine was changed as well. 

Maybe you guys are over-thinking this.  

Only the pan tunnel has the vin stamped into it.  

To go from a link pin front end (which Al Gallo has on his VS Speedster) to a ball joint front end you do not have to change the "Napolean Hat" (which doesn't attach to the beam, it attaches to the headpiece which then attaches to the beam), nor do you have to replace the front beam - you can use the earlier beam.

All you have to do is replace the front suspension trailing arms and spindles from a link pin set to a ball joint set.  Everything else stays the same.  And since the Beetles made in Mexico were all Ball Joint versions, parts were easy to get.

Everything on my car screams VS , but It is definitely a '65 pan with linkpins, so maybe not a VS.  I have the original Cal. salvage title dated 1993 and all numbers match.

Gordon Nichols posted:

Maybe you guys are over-thinking this.  

Only the pan tunnel has the vin stamped into it. 

All you have to do is replace the front suspension trailing arms and spindles from a link pin set to a ball joint set.  Everything else stays the same.  And since the Beetles made in Mexico were all Ball Joint versions, parts were easy to get.

I think there is much more to change than his! If you wanna go from a pre 66 axle to a after 66 one, you have to change everything!

the axle beam it self,

the spindles.

suspension,

shock absorbers,

breakes

the whole front end / front huck

the Napoleon heat cause after removing you cannot use it a 2nd time.

stearing arms,

steering shock absorber

aso., aso

In US there is a disc brake conversion kit for the King-Link pin front end. Not near the selection for ball joint front ends BUT there is a 2.5" lowered spindle ($450) and a stock height kit ($280).

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDe...uctCode=ACC-C10-4122

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDe...uctCode=ACC-C10-4120

Jan Peter Stahl posted:

Gordon Nichols posted:

Maybe you guys are over-thinking this.  

Only the pan tunnel has the vin stamped into it. 

All you have to do is replace the front suspension trailing arms and spindles from a link pin set to a ball joint set.  Everything else stays the same.  And since the Beetles made in Mexico were all Ball Joint versions, parts were easy to get.

I think there is much more to change than his! If you wanna go from a pre 66 axle to a after 66 one, you have to change everything!

the axle beam it self,

the spindles.

suspension,

shock absorbers,

breakes

the whole front end / front huck

the Napoleon heat cause after removing you cannot use it a 2nd time.

stearing arms,

steering shock absorber

aso., aso

 

The 2 beams are spaced differently, Gordon; k&l has 2" between the bolt holes while balljoint is 2 1/2". I've never heard of anyone just swapping the trailing arms from one beam to the other. Normal procedure for changing beam style is replacing the whole assembly (including the Napoleon's Hat).

I stand by what I typed.  To go from a king pin front end to a ball joint front end you can keep the old front beam and shocks, and all you do is remove the old trailing arms and spindles and install newer, ball joint trailing arms and new ball joint spindles.  

Yes, you’ll have to go to the updated brakes, either drum or disk, but that was the point of making the switch.  I have done this on 3 or 4 Dune Buggies, mostly to go to front disk brakes because no one back then (1970) sold disk brake kits for king pin spindles.  I used salvaged parts from Karmann Ghias, and made the swap as a unit - splindle, trailing arms, hub/rotor/caliper all at once as a unit.  

The old shocks attach just as they did - You need the old shocks for the horizontal top bolt to the beam, rather than a vertical bolt top.  The tie rods line up, the old steering damper is kept and that’s it.  

I’ll agree, though, that if you measure the bolt spacing on the beam and it is 2-3/4” and your VIN shows a pre-1966 car, then it has probably had the frame head replaced to go to the newer beam.  Several places sell either just the frame head or everything forward of the floor pans.  

but Gordon what ever is possible and what parts fits together in the end, in the vintage Speedster the complete front axle beam is changed into the post 66 Version.

I think the different distance between the k&l and the ball joint version is a big change! If you just mount the post 66 spindles to the k&l version the whole movement while damping in of the wheel will change cause the "triangle" changed... 

How ever Kirk changes the whole front beam into the post 66 Version, maybe there are some more benefits of the newer construction.

Gordon Nichols posted:

...To go from a king pin front end to a ball joint front end you can keep the old front beam and shocks, and all you do is remove the old trailing arms and spindles and install newer, ball joint trailing arms and new ball joint spindles.  

Yes, you’ll have to go to the updated brakes, either drum or disk, but that was the point of making the switch.  I have done this on 3 or 4 Dune Buggies, mostly to go to front disk brakes because no one back then (1970) sold disk brake kits for king pin spindles.  I used salvaged parts from Karmann Ghias, and made the swap as a unit - splindle, trailing arms, hub/rotor/caliper all at once as a unit...

Interesting concept, Gordon; I  always thought the tube diameters were different as well (don't know why) so never considered it being a possibility.

I'm no expert, but I'm thinking the different spacing between the torsion tubes is going to throw the caster all over the place. I'm with Jan on this one. 

Just because you can put it together that way doesn't mean you should, or that it's a good idea.