WHEEL CLEARANCE, PLEASE HELP

I need to know how big of a wheel and tire set up I can put on my speedster. I have a regular fender speedster replica, I have Porsche 5 on 130mm disc brakes. How much clearance do I have for a wheel and tire set up front and rear. Is there any body out there that has different wheels than the chrome moon's. Let me know, I want to find out before I spend a lot of money on wheels and tires.

thanks

Dave

Hi David
I will soon be switching my IM over to Porsche 5 bolt discs, front and back. I also purchased 4 Eagle replica Porsche 911 style mags (15 x6"). I hope to mount 195 x 65 on the front and 205 x 65 on the back. I'm not sure that the 205s will fit the back. If not, I'll try the 195s.
For tires, I can find (so far) only two choices that offer high performance handling (forget all-season): Pirelli P6000...they come in a 195 or 205 x 65, and Yokohama AVS ES100...they come in a 195 or 205 x 60. I'd rather have the 65 ratio for lower rpm cruising on the highway, so I'll probably go with the Pirellis. I would not recommend 50 series tires. 195 x 50 on the back would make the car rev way too high at freeway speeds.
Ron

The rear clearence depends on the year of the tranny. The 67-68 swing axle is 4 inches wider than the early sixties swing axle rear. IRS is even wider.

Find out what tires are on the car now. Go to www.tirerack.com and find out the cross sectional width. Now measure the clearence left in the wheel well. Look on tirerack.com for a tire with a cross section and tread width that fits.

Also to ensure the speedo and gearing does not change drastically compare tires on diameter as well.

FWIW - I have a '68 IRS under mine and am using Beck's Spyder rear wheels - in the back (obviously). They have a biggie offset and I have 195x60s with scads of room, can go to 205's no sweat. These wheels won't fit the front, suspension clearance probs. BTW it's a skinny fender CMC

Bill,
What is the total width as well as the offset of your wheels? Do they match 4-1/2" fronts? The 5-1/2" wheels have an inch more wheel ouboard of the wheel hub, and get too close to the fender on an IRS car (especially on the driver's side). I've got 4-1/2" all around on my '72 IRS pan, with 185 65R 15 tires. I've looked at your file- any chance you could you post some pictures of the Beck wheels from the underside of the car? I'd love to check it out!

(Message Edited 1/8/2003 8:22:12 AM)

(Message Edited 1/8/2003 8:23:11 AM)

Isn't a 185 sized tire too wide for a 4 1/2 " rim? I thought that the minimum width would be 5".
Ron

Ron, 185/60, 185/65, or 185/70 will work OK on a 4 1/2" x 15" wheel.

The IRS Rear was not available on the 68 beetle. 68 had a wider swing axle than the pre 67 models.

(Message Edited 1/9/2003 12:08:03 PM)

Eric
OOPS! shows what I know. Hain't no beetle expurt here. When I bought it the title was for a '68 VW. It has a ball joint front end and IRS. I just assumed it came that way.

Stan
Not sure I can answer your ?'s acurately, can't remember dimensions. It had 5.5 wide wheels all around w/165's on it. The rears BARELY cleared the fender. They were the standard chrome "VW" wheels. The ones I got from Chuck Beck look the same except they have the rim offset ~1.5 inches (a guess) toward the inside of the car. If you go to Beck's website - they are the rear wheels he uses on spyders. Mangel (sp?) brand. I can check dimensions for you as soon as it warms up to freezing, or give Beck a call.
Bill

Eric, 1967 was the last year of the swing axle; 1968 had a transition type of IRS; 1969 had the full, dual CV joint IRS.

George,

My 1962 Beetle has the Tranny and electricals I removed from my 12 volt 1968 beetle donor car. I replaced the drums with custom 5 lug drums. The 1967 and 1968 trannys are the same except they changed the axles to 4 lug style for '68. I prefer them because, the bell housings are set for 12 volt starter and flywheel without clearancing. They also provide backup lights. Also, the 67 and 68 beetle trannys have a 4 inch wider track.

My VS classic also has the 68 swing axle chassis. The wheel clearance is fine for the 5.5 X 15 wheels with up to 185 tires. I want to put 205/65 tires in back and 195 tires up front. I now realize I need to buy the Beck's Mangels for wide axle trannys on their web site for the rear. The wheels offered by Becks have the standard 4.5 offset outboard and the extra inch is set to the inside of the wheel.

Eric, that sounds like a good idea. Awhile back I thought about doing the same thing, but found out with the adjustable spring plates I have on the back there is only about 1/2in. clearance on the inside. I guess thats the price you pay for easily adjustable rear ride height. By the way if anyone needs custom offset wheels try Stockton Wheel at (209)4647771, saw them in Hot VW, so they know the VW wheels well.

Eddie,

Thanks for the info. I just measured my clearence on the inside and the adjuster is in the way. I must use the standard 5.5 wheel. I can only go to 195/65 15 on the rear (8" cross-section and 6" tread width).

I guess the wheel setup will stay 165SR86 15 on front and 195/65 15 rear. With the front anti-sway bar and camber compensator that should give loads of cornering pleasure.

Ron, I've got 205's on the 7 inch chromes on all 4 corners on my 84 IM. (I believe yours is an 84 too?)

For the rears I had to do a few things:
-the inside lip on the fender has obviously been trimmed off a bit by a previous owner;
-I had to raise the car about an inch and I did that with air shocks so I can adjust it as it makes a difference with one or two people in the car;
-I had to shave off a bit of the bolts that hold the side molding on...one bolt on each side was just rubbing ever so little over bumps or on hard acceleration.

The fronts I have yet to deal with...the rims rub on the trailing arms (where they go into the tubes) on tight turns and therefore decrease the turning circle considerably! Parking is a real pain.

I'd be interested in hearing how you adapted the 911 braking system if you feel like starting another thread or posting the procedure.

Brian Puskas

No, I don't have a 911 braking system...just replaced the front 4 bolt rotors with 5 bolt rotors. In the back, I purchased a set of CB 5 bolt disc brakes.
Haven't heard from you in a while, Brian...where you been?

For anyone reading thi thread, in order not to be confused, Ron appears to be using th late Porsche alloy 5-lug wheel pattern - not the early Porsche/VW "wide-five" pattern which is 5x205mm.

John Leader, however, IS running 4 wheel discs and wide 5 wheels. Very trick...maybe the coolest part of his setup.

George,
This car sounds like its going to peg the cool-o-meter.

Stan, my new IM Speedster is ordered with 4 wheel disks for wide-five Porsche wheels on IRS rear and ball-joint front end; IM has a new source for these that Henry says makes an exceptional product.

Interestingly enough these new disk brakes DO NOT require dropped front spindles; disk brakes that use dropped spindles normally do so to get around clearance problems.

(Message Edited 1/15/2003 5:47:39 PM)

Stan, this may be a dumb question, but why are wide five wheels better than the four lug wheels if you have standard wheels with the stock moons? The REAL wheels had ten slots instead of eight anyway.

Eddie,
There is absolutely no functional difference, only visual. I've got 4 lug wheels (8 slot), because I wanted IRS and I didn't want to go to a swing axle to get the more original appearing wide 5 wheels. Rear disc brake setups for wide 5 rear ends are realtively rare and expensive- but functionally not all that different from the more common (and narrower) 4 lug set-up. My endeavor was to have a car that was as original appearing as possible (within reason), with certain concessions to better (more modern) technology, like IRS. I also don't have an unlimited budget, so what George is doing intrests me greatly because he seems to have similar desires and a larger budget. John L's car was also built to be as close to original as possible (with upgrades), but he elected to get even closer to 1957 with the wide 5s. I think its very cool. I run 4-1/2" rims w/ crest hubcaps, John runs 5-1/2" with also with the crest hubcaps. John's setup looks closer to original (1" more outboard offset) than mine. George's new car will have the best of both- IRS and wider, more original looking wide 5 wheels. It makes a difference to no one but unbeleiveably picky people- like me.

If original appearance is important to you then the wide-five Mangel Porsche replica wheels (chrome or silver paint) with ten holes are IT. Henry Reisner at IM told me the new wide-five disk brakes available as an option on IRS/ball-joint Intermeccanicas actually REDUCES tread width compared to the usual 4-lug disk brake set up.

George,

Like I said- it pretty much pegs the cool-o-meter. Is the brake set-up available as a retrofit? I assume Henry is getting parts from somebody, not having rotors purpose built for him.

By the way- with the modifications you are making (wide 5 four wheel discs, Espar heater, etc.), I think you are making a wise decision to have a new car built, especially since you had a willing buyer for the D. A lot of times you are money ahead to have something new purpose built rather than modify or replace something that is perfectly good, but not quite "the ultimate" (to you). I did it on a much smaller scale a year ago to get the Glasspar hartop, a heating system, better interior trim, Glasruit paint, and an IRS transaxle with 4:88 gearing. Good luck on the wait, it should be the hardest part.

I'm sure the new brakes can be acquired and retro-fitted but price may be prohibitive. I think the source is SoCal. That's really why I decided to sell the car, e.g., the new engine, new transaxle with LSD, wide-five disk brakes, etc.

And it seemed logical to go with Espar heat/defrost to allow more freedom in performance exhaust system choices, for instance, the 2,387 will be using a 1 3/4" S/S merged header system made in England and distributed in the US by CB Performance. The 1 5/8" version will clear a stock thermostat and tin, but the 1 3/4" needs slight mods to clear.

I'm going to try a shortened version of the rice boys' S/S tomato can mufflers with big short oval tailpipe adapted to the header collector output flange to emulate the Carrera single centered exhaust pipe, but it may be too loud for the street.

(Message Edited 1/16/2003 1:26:11 PM)

(Message Edited 1/16/2003 2:23:02 PM)

DAVID,
If you go to Files\Members\GregBsVSpeedster and take a look at the Wheels on mine. They are (psudo) Porsche alloys 15"x6.0" wide with 185 dunlops. Porsche 15" wheels are way different offset than Chromies that you usually see.
My Speedster is std. wheel wells, ball joint front end, short axle Swing Axle, with VW disks (rotors drilled for Porsche) and Drum brakes in the rear.
I had to space the rear wheels out about 3/8" and the fronts are spaced out 3/16".
You can get spacers at cbperformance or Pepboys sells them.
Your car should be about the same as mine except for your rear discs.
I think the rear disc kits add some width. You'll need to check on that.
If you go with 16"x6" wide Porsche alloys (Fuchs), they are the same offset as the 15" inchers.
Go to the Library of here and look for a chart of Porsche alloy offsets.
Greg B.

I have a 79IM and would like to put fuchs wheels on. My current skinny wheels have a 5 bolt pattern. Is this the VW/Porsche "wide five" pattern? If so, will I still need to change the pattern to fit fuchs? Thx.

Tim, the wide-five wheels have a 5x205mm pattern; the Porsche 5-lug Mahle and Fuchs wheels have a smaller 5-lug mounting pattern. You can buy custom drums/disks from CB Performance or some other distributor to make the conversion. There are also less expensive bolt-on adapters which may work but they will widen the tread and are not as strong as the correct drums/disks (and may not be as concentric).

Speaking of the wide five on early bugs...you see a lot of them with BRM Black spoke replica wheels. Has anyone seen a speedster with BRMs?

Yes Richie King from Karmann Connection in the UK had an original speedster with BRM

Thanks, Morten.
Ron

Now my body is on the pan (no engine in yet), and the rear wheel clearance looks to be critical. Offcourse when the engine weight forces the suspension down, the wheels will get move a bit in but i am really worried..
(i have a set of short axeles on hand, but would really rather use the long ones)

Do anybody use long swingaxles on the rear with fuchs wheels..?

The 6" fuchs wheels have almost the same width outwards as standard 4lug mangles so I guess that it should be possible..!

See my project here (in danish, but with a lot of pics.)
www.gearheads.dk/nuke/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=3536

Morton, that's one hell of a nice shop you've got there! Your exhaust looks something like the one I had built.
Ron

I run the Fuch 16x6J front, 16x7J rear... 205 50s front, 225 50s rear on my flared CMC. I run the 4 to 5 adapters all the way around and add an extra 1/4 spacing up front to fill the wheel wells out and clear the disc calipers. I like the wider stance, the taller rims with super low profile and the fat tire look. The 225s look sweet under the rear. You can go see it at Files, Member, Sweet CMC.