Sunday was a beautiful day, the kind that Speedsters are best in-- mid 80s, sunny, beautiful. We drove the car to church in Peoria (about 10-15 minutes down the interstate). The car has been running great with the spare 2110 and the newly regeared transaxle is loosening up nicely and seems to be as good as it can get for a 4-speed in Illinois.

This spring, I had put the car back together with my old throw-out bearing and pressure plate. I had the new bearing in my hand, but the old one felt good and I decided not to be "belts and suspenders" Stan and just reuse it. I regretted it almost immediately after install when I heard it squealing "a bit". My hearing is pretty awful (I wear hearing aids, but I'm still nearly deaf), but it didn't sound that bad, at least to me. Jeanie commented on it a couple of times, then let it drop. 

The thing about living where the weather is awful for half the year is that when it is nice, you live with small problems to keep going. This seemed like a small problem.

Last Sunday, it became a "not small" problem.

After church, I started the car and motored through downtown Peoria stop-and-go traffic. The clutch seemed to be not disengaging fully, and became worse with every stop. Shifting was really, really hard. I drove across the river, and had lunch in downtown East Peoria. I tried not to think about it during lunch.

We had a lovely meal on the patio of the restaurant (which is the only thing possible, as per the Lord Governor's decree) and the day seemed almost normal, after 3 months of being anything but. After dinner, I got in the car, pushed the clutch in... and felt a mighty pop. My clutch was now 100% not there. I got the car in 1st, started it in gear with the starter, and drove home (15 miles or so) in 1st gear. It was a leisurely drive. I figured I had broken the clutch cable (and posted so on Ed's thread).

I have a spare cable, and ran it thorough the housing. The old one looked fine, but looks can be deceiving. Still no clutch. I checked the Bowden tube, as well as the tube in the center of the car (no tunnel in an IM). All good. I knew what I needed to do, I just didn't want to do it in the middle of prime driving season.

I pulled the engine last night, and found this:

IMG-5315

61343208908--8A16DFA2-BD84-46AD-8655-E3B0A3A5C9B961343206833--9382B63C-A17D-4CBA-AF8D-07E44A1B32C561343202627--ACA0FAFC-1EA5-407A-9487-3CC33E4A4EAF

I knew it would be bad. That's almost as bad as it can be. Flywheel is still good, transaxle case still good (as far as I can see). The hole is non-structural, and I'll fix with an epoxy (recommendations welcome, or I'm just using JB Weld). 

Parts (PP, H/D cross shaft, cross shaft bearing, etc.) on order from Kalifornia. I just lost the rest of June, most likely-- all for a $20 throw-out bearing (which I have in my stash!).

It's the small things that become big things. I tell myself I love this car. Sometimes, however...

 

President for Life, the People's Republic of Stanistan

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinions, but not to his own facts."

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Last edited by Stan Galat
Original Post

Any chance you could get the car, less engine, to a really good welder to close that hole?  I know it's not heavily structural, but that area was built up to give the shaft's bushing/bearing strength so restoring the integrity might be a good thing.  It would be pretty easy to TIG.  Just thinking out loud, here.

Last edited by Gordon Nichols

@Stan Galat -- you'll have it on the road before you know it. If we can help expedite any parts from Kalifornia, let us know. @Pat Downs is coming over for dinner tonight with @Teby S and @Robert M, so if anything is back ordered, I can see if Pat can get it. FedEx is a wonderful thing. 

Anand

Did the flywheel throw those loose ball bearings around in the bellhousing?  Everything looks shot peened.  Excuse for a Berg 5 Speed maybe?

Sorry to see this, @Stan Galat. The throw out bearings themselves usually don't come apart unless something else is wrong- is it possible a clip failed? Those ball bearings (and other pieces) sure did make a mess! I don't think the hole is structural, either, and your choice of JB Weld is probably as good as any.

@WOLFGANG- With the center torsion adjusters in an IM frame, Stan can't do a Berg 5.

Stan, you're a great guy and I'm really sorry to learn what happened to you; however, hopefully with your skills combined with some of the fine suggestions provided by other members of this forum you will be back on the road soon.  

We'll be keeping our fingers crossed for you.

  Cliff

Any chance you could get the car, less engine, to a really good welder to close that hole?  I know it's not heavily structural, but that area was built up to give the shaft's bushing/bearing strength so restoring the integrity might be a good thing.  It would be pretty easy to TIG.  Just thinking out loud, here.

I thought so as well, but it's hollow behind it. It'll have to do with epoxy for the summer.

@WOLFGANG posted:

Did the flywheel throw those loose ball bearings around in the bellhousing?  Everything looks shot peened.  Excuse for a Berg 5 Speed maybe?

Yes to the ball bearings, no to the 5-speed in this car (we've talked about why before, so I'll not get into it).

Anand is a stand up guy for sure!

Yes he is. 

@Jimmy V. posted:

Remind me Stan, what transaxle gearing are you running? You mentioned you were enjoying your new gearing.

Stock Super Beetle mainshaft, 1.3 third, .93 fourth, 3.44 R/P.

Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate you guys. The purpose of the post was 3-fold:

  1. To relate that reusing normal wear parts is something that almost never pays. There's a lot of damage there that a new throw-out would have solved.
  2. To admit that I did something stupid, and to serve as a cautionary tale.
  3. To complain a bit about a missed month of summer. They are precious.

I know what I need to do. Welding on a piece that close to a machined bore is not something I want to deal with while the transaxle is in the car. It'll be back on the road as soon as the parts all get here. We'll address the transaxle case this winter when the engine is out again.

 

@Stan Galat posted:

Sunday was a beautiful day, the kind that Speedsters are best in-- mid 80s, sunny, beautiful. We drove the car to church in Peoria (about 10-15 minutes down the interstate). The car has been running great with the spare 2110 and the newly regeared transaxle is loosening up nicely and seems to be as good as it can get for a 4-speed in Illinois.

This spring, I had put the car back together with my old throw-out bearing and pressure plate. I had the new bearing in my hand, but the old one felt good and I decided not to be "belts and suspenders" Stan and just reuse it. I regretted it almost immediately after install when I heard it squealing "a bit". My hearing is pretty awful (I wear hearing aids, but I'm still nearly deaf), but it didn't sound that bad, at least to me. Jeanie commented on it a couple of times, then let it drop. 

The thing about living where the weather is awful for half the year is that when it is nice, you live with small problems to keep going. This seemed like a small problem.

Last Sunday, it became a "not small" problem.

After church, I started the car and motored through downtown Peoria stop-and-go traffic. The clutch seemed to be not disengaging fully, and became worse with every stop. Shifting was really, really hard. I drove across the river, and had lunch in downtown East Peoria. I tried not to think about it during lunch.

We had a lovely meal on the patio of the restaurant (which is the only thing possible, as per the Lord Governor's decree) and the day seemed almost normal, after 3 months of being anything but. After dinner, I got in the car, pushed the clutch in... and felt a mighty pop. My clutch was now 100% not there. I got the car in 1st, started it in gear with the starter, and drove home (15 miles or so) in 1st gear. It was a leisurely drive. I figured I had broken the clutch cable (and posted so on Ed's thread).

I have a spare cable, and ran it thorough the housing. The old one looked fine, but looks can be deceiving. Still no clutch. I checked the Bowden tube, as well as the tube in the center of the car (no tunnel in an IM). All good. I knew what I needed to do, I just didn't want to do it in the middle of prime driving season.

I pulled the engine last night, and found this:

IMG-5315

61343208908--8A16DFA2-BD84-46AD-8655-E3B0A3A5C9B961343206833--9382B63C-A17D-4CBA-AF8D-07E44A1B32C561343202627--ACA0FAFC-1EA5-407A-9487-3CC33E4A4EAF

I knew it would be bad. That's almost as bad as it can be. Flywheel is still good, transaxle case still good (as far as I can see). The hole is non-structural, and I'll fix with an epoxy (recommendations welcome, or I'm just using JB Weld). 

Parts (PP, H/D cross shaft, cross shaft bearing, etc.) on order from Kalifornia. I just lost the rest of June, most likely-- all for a $20 throw-out bearing (which I have in my stash!).

It's the small things that become big things. I tell myself I love this car. Sometimes, however...

 

What's that old saying? "For want if a penny, a pound was lost?" 

I feel for you wrt "driving season," though. For the second year in a row, I've procrastinated my "winter projects" until my car sits on jack stands on a perfect 80° day. This time the front discs I ordered are back ordered, and I don't really feels like reassembling the front end to drive it. (My beam being if unknown origin, I had to tear one side off to verify the size of my spindles to order the correct wheel bearings). 

Well that surely sucks rocks ! IMHO you'll be ok with filling in the small hole with JB as there is plenty of meat remaining on the bone. Regretfully with that damage you'll never be 100% sure what went first and took out the "neighborhood" so to speak, but I would say it's was the throw out bearing clip. Replacing everything is best and won't set you back to the point of 3 squares of Ramen noodles. 

 

Until I read this, Stan, I really didn't know why your head has no hair apparent.

But now, I am wise in the ways of Stan.

 

"...Then Stan arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped. And he said, “Without clutch I came from my mother's womb, and without clutch shall I return. The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”

In all this Stan did not sin or charge God with wrong..."

 

@Stan Galat posted:

Sunday was a beautiful day, the kind that Speedsters are best in-- mid 80s, sunny, beautiful. We drove the car to church in Peoria (about 10-15 minutes down the interstate). The car has been running great with the spare 2110 and the newly regeared transaxle is loosening up nicely and seems to be as good as it can get for a 4-speed in Illinois.

This spring, I had put the car back together with my old throw-out bearing and pressure plate. I had the new bearing in my hand, but the old one felt good and I decided not to be "belts and suspenders" Stan and just reuse it. I regretted it almost immediately after install when I heard it squealing "a bit". My hearing is pretty awful (I wear hearing aids, but I'm still nearly deaf), but it didn't sound that bad, at least to me. Jeanie commented on it a couple of times, then let it drop. 

The thing about living where the weather is awful for half the year is that when it is nice, you live with small problems to keep going. This seemed like a small problem.

Last Sunday, it became a "not small" problem.

After church, I started the car and motored through downtown Peoria stop-and-go traffic. The clutch seemed to be not disengaging fully, and became worse with every stop. Shifting was really, really hard. I drove across the river, and had lunch in downtown East Peoria. I tried not to think about it during lunch.

We had a lovely meal on the patio of the restaurant (which is the only thing possible, as per the Lord Governor's decree) and the day seemed almost normal, after 3 months of being anything but. After dinner, I got in the car, pushed the clutch in... and felt a mighty pop. My clutch was now 100% not there. I got the car in 1st, started it in gear with the starter, and drove home (15 miles or so) in 1st gear. It was a leisurely drive. I figured I had broken the clutch cable (and posted so on Ed's thread).

I have a spare cable, and ran it thorough the housing. The old one looked fine, but looks can be deceiving. Still no clutch. I checked the Bowden tube, as well as the tube in the center of the car (no tunnel in an IM). All good. I knew what I needed to do, I just didn't want to do it in the middle of prime driving season.

I pulled the engine last night, and found this:

IMG-5315

61343208908--8A16DFA2-BD84-46AD-8655-E3B0A3A5C9B961343206833--9382B63C-A17D-4CBA-AF8D-07E44A1B32C561343202627--ACA0FAFC-1EA5-407A-9487-3CC33E4A4EAF

I knew it would be bad. That's almost as bad as it can be. Flywheel is still good, transaxle case still good (as far as I can see). The hole is non-structural, and I'll fix with an epoxy (recommendations welcome, or I'm just using JB Weld). 

Parts (PP, H/D cross shaft, cross shaft bearing, etc.) on order from Kalifornia. I just lost the rest of June, most likely-- all for a $20 throw-out bearing (which I have in my stash!).

It's the small things that become big things. I tell myself I love this car. Sometimes, however...

 

This so reminds me of myself and my Ducati custom track bike I built.  My quote from then was, "I love the bike, but I'm beginning to hate myself..."

Stan, fill the hole with JB Weld and forget about it. Most of the stress on that bushing is going forward away from the hole. Sucks to lose the throwout and suffer the damage.

My stupid trans mainshaft circlip failed last year and caused me to miss the summer. Of course, because I decided to do the cylinders and heads(my choice). My circlip was a less than $3 part.......Now I know they are NOT re-usable!

FYI, I get HD throwout bearing spring clips from Weddle, and they haven't failed me yet.

@Sacto Mitch posted:

 Until I read this, Stan, I really didn't know why your head has no hair apparent.

But now, I am wise in the ways of Stan.

 "...Then Stan arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped. And he said, “Without clutch I came from my mother's womb, and without clutch shall I return. The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”

In all this Stan did not sin or charge God with wrong..."

This made my day, Mitch. 

Spinning Job 1: 20-22 is a neat bit of writing, to say nothing of my being super-impressed that you know the passage

... although to say I did not sin or charge God with wrong might be a bit of a stretch.

I was pretty grumpy last night.

Last edited by Stan Galat

Holy carp..........That's sucky. I hate when something's happened and in the back of your mind, you know it's bad, but you go through the motions of ignoring it and trying to go about your day. During lunch that would have irked the living snot out of me enough to make lobster taste like tinned tuna. 

I say JB weld that sucker and salvage what's left of the season......

Good luck.  

 

@Stan Galat wrote- "Stock Super Beetle mainshaft, 1.3 third, .93 fourth, 3.44 R/P."

  While everybody calls it that, it's not exclusively a "Super Beetle" thing.  About November '72 VW switched from the 10/38- 3.80 1st gear to the stronger 9 tooth (9/34- 3.78) mainshaft. 1st gear was essentially the same ratio.  This is in every Type 1 (Beetle, Super Beetle, Karmann Ghia) transaxle from that date on.  2nd gear- 17/33- 2.06- remained the same. So Stan's gearstack is 3.78 1st, 2.06 2nd, 1.3 (I'm guessing stock earlier 3rd?) with .93 (stock later Beetle) 4th.  The 3.44 ring & pinion makes 1st a little longer; similar to many original 356 (and 911/912) combinations, while  the 2-3 spacing is a little closer than normal and the 3-4 shift will be a lot of fun!

Out of the Bentley orange (late model Beetle, Super Beetle, Karmann Ghia) book-           gear ratios- later stock

I believe there is 1 mistake on the chart- it doesn't mention that KG transaxles have the .89 instead of the .93 the Beetles (and Supers) do when coupled with the 3.875 r&p. 

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@edsnova posted:

Is there really much difference between a 1.26 (stock) 3rd gear and a 1.30?

http://www.teammfactory.com/ca.../0/0/3600/3600/1/0/2

Not a lot, Ed. As you can see by the shift point numbers, the 2-3 shift with the 1.31 gives a recovery rpm not quite 100 rpm higher than with the 1.26. Where that makes a difference is when shifting at 5500 or 6,000 rpm- the higher corresponding rpm in 3rd is more up the powerband, giving more acceleration. Into 4th with the 1.31 you end up just a little higher than stock, whereas with the shorter 3-4 distance with the 1.26 that would be slightly more fun, but that's not what Stan was going for.

You are right, though- it's not a ton of difference.

That sucks Stan; I agree with some of the previous posters; you should be good to go with cleaning that and JB Welding it. I also believe that one of the clips broke or got loose and that was the culprit. A friend had similar symptoms and it was a combination of the clutch tube coming un-welded from the tunnel and the cross shaft. The pressure plate got a little banged up. Is it still good?

Last edited by Impala

It's not a ton of difference, but is exactly the ratios I'd choose to swap to. I've got the same 1-2, stock 1.26 3rd and 0.89 4th. I'd definitely change to the slightly shorter 1.3 3rd and 0.93 4th if I had a chance to do it. I'd like to couple that with a torque-biasing diff, or TBD, if I could find one to fit the 3.44 R&P. I'd like 1-2 to be a little taller, but for the money Stan has in it, it's about the best a 4 speed can be with the power he has.

The trans I have is perfect for all-around. It really likes 80 plus on the highway, great for interstate cruising. But just like Stan, I've come to the conclusion that's NOT what the car is for.

If the 3.44 final is a no-go, using a 3.88 final drive with TBD could be done. That transmission would be VERY expensive, custom gears for all 4 speeds to get within spitting distance of Stan's choices. 

@DannyP posted:

It's not a ton of difference, but is exactly the ratios I'd choose to swap to. I've got the same 1-2, stock 1.26 3rd and 0.89 4th. I'd definitely change to the slightly shorter 1.3 3rd and 0.93 4th if I had a chance to do it. I'd like to couple that with a torque-biasing diff, or TBD, if I could find one to fit the 3.44 R&P. I'd like 1-2 to be a little taller, but for the money Stan has in it, it's about the best a 4 speed can be with the power he has.

The trans I have is perfect for all-around. It really likes 80 plus on the highway, great for interstate cruising. But just like Stan, I've come to the conclusion that's NOT what the car is for.

If the 3.44 final is a no-go, using a 3.88 final drive with TBD could be done. That transmission would be VERY expensive, custom gears for all 4 speeds to get within spitting distance of Stan's choices. 

To be clear, my ratios work for a GT, which is what I'm aiming for. They'd work great in a Subaru application. If I were wanting a 4-speed for an air-cooled car to be used for mountain work, I'd want the final drive to be taller-- a 1.44 3rd and 1.09 4th with the 3.44 R/P would work out pretty well.

Of course, if you want to use a Quaffe LSD, you'd need a 3.88 R/P, and stuff would get pretty expensive pretty quickly. 

Last edited by Stan Galat

I was looking in that range, I think a 1.04 to 1.10 4th is where I settled. It looks good on paper, anyway.

I have heard of someone machining the end of the pinion off to clear the Quaife when using a 3.44.  I believe it was mentioned on the Samba, @DannyP; maybe ask there. Do you know how much it interferes by?  If all that needed to come off was a millimeter or 2 I can't see that being a problem.

And you are right- to come close to Stan's gearing with a 3.88 would be all custom pieces to the tune of 1500- $1800 (Just for the mainshaft/matching gears and 3rd/4th gears).

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All of this why I evangelize for the 3.44 r&p. It really is the right call if you're not drag racing or trying to keep a super high-strung (or very small) Type 1 engine happy behind a very, very heavy car.

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