Best engine for a new 550?

@Richard S posted:

So I've been on the fence for a few years about getting a 550 kit from one of the bigger vendors (maybe Beck). I'm not a fan of the Subaru engines, so have been thinking about a Type 1-4 engine. I like the simplicity and authenticity. Moreover, I don't have any real need for power as this would be more of a summer driver (also, my wife would like to drive it).

So I apologize in advance for the likely newbie question, but which one of the VW engines would be a good choice for a 550 replica? And who are some of the recommended suppliers for these engines?

If you want a Type IV motor for your Spyder I would talk with Pat Downs. He is one of the best air-cooled motor builders in the nation. I can put you in touch if you need. But a Type IV motor isn't cheap but it is better than a Type I.

If you want a purpose built Type I you can also get that from Pat Downs and he could possibly ship it when he sends engines over to Carey at Beck. Or you can deal with PD directly but shipping might be a bit more. Or you could find a local builder to save some cash.

Pat Downs is currently the world record holder in the 1/4 mile with a Pro Stock NA Type I and he has been building engines for more than 30 years. He's beaten people on both the east and the west coast and he knows his stuff.

I’m not a great mechanic but I’m a diverse owner. Had a Spyder in 1999 with a 2109 cc type 1. Had the first ever Subaru Spyder in 2003. I currently own a 2018 Spyder with a 200 hp deep breathing Subaru. I currently have a 2650 type 4 on order from Pat Downs for a 356.
I would say don’t get a car with a type 1 unless you have mechanical skill or mechanical ambition.
If you have little mechanical skill and you want something very reliable get a Subaru.  Carey can set you up with a stock Subaru engine in a Spyder that will be rock solid reliable and give you 165hp on regular. It’s a plug and play. Put in in the garage for 6 months and hit the starter button and it will fire right up.
So why the hell am I putting a type 4 in my 356 build when I’ve had such a great experience with Subaru. Great question. Hope I don’t regret it. But I do have a number of reasons. I want a usable frunk. Pat Downs is the greatest air cooled builder in the world. I actually have 2 1988 Dellorto carbs in their original boxes. And I’m also starting to ease into retirement and I thought that learning how to work on a type 4 would be a great hobby.
I hope this has helped. If you don’t need power and you go with a type 1 probably  better to go with lesser displacement probably limit it to 2110 though my 2109 still had issues. Granted I drove the p*SS out of it.
An air cooled type 4 will likely be more reliable even with greater power and displacement. I am paying $20k+ for my engine.
Easy peesy, no worry, lots of easy reliable power go with Subaru.

@Richard S posted:

Moreover, I don't have any real need for power as this would be more of a summer driver (also, my wife would like to drive it).

For what you describe, a Type 1 engine would do you very well. Type 4 is about 60 pounds heavier and much more expensive to build, with the advantage being that you can take them to a much larger displacement for more power. A 2-liter Type 4 built to a mild spec would get you 130 horsepower which will move the car along very nicely.

But a Type 1 at 1915cc built to standard hotrod spec by CB Performance would cost about 60 percent as much and make 125 hp. Built right, it will run cool, rev over 6k and outlast you. The car would perform at least as well with the cheaper, smaller Type 1.

That's basically what I have in my Spyder: "Base engine." The car is a kick to drive and probably goes a little faster and quicker than the originals did.

A lot of guys want more power, and the Type 1 can give that too. @DannyP has a near-2.2 liter engine (2165?) that probably makes 180 horsepower and would rev to 7k if he let it. That'll take a fake 550 into track day territory, and you better keep your wits about you.

As others said, Pat Downs is one of the, if not the, most reputable Bug engine builder working now. He understands the assignment.

(edit): In regards to maintenance: there's not much, once the carbs are dialed in. And if you opt for FI there's none of that. You'll adjust the valves once every season or two, and change the oil and filter once a year.

Soob can be less maintenance but not necessarily. Head gaskets, you know. I know this because I also have a Subaru-powered Plastic Clown Car.

Good luck!

Thank you for the recommendation. This is why I love these forums, you get the inside scoop :-)

My father was actually a somewhat famous racer back in the '60s. He and his friends loved building crazy engines that were totally inappropriate for street purposes. I guess I mention that because I'm wondering if Pat might be overkill for my intended usage?

BTW, you've motivated me to go back and dig into what really differentiates the Type 1 and 4 engines. Yes, I am totally new to this :-)

The Type 4 will lend a bit of "authenticity" in that the exhaust pipes come out of the correct part of the engine—underneath. This matters to exactly nobody except that one lunatic who bashes out an aluminum underpan to isolate the mufflers and pipes from the topside of the engine, as per the originals.

Opinions are easy. Opinions gained from experience are more rare. Opinions from experts should not be discounted. Pat is an expert.

Yeah, he's the fastest VW in the country, but he's also built a bazillion engines for every possible kind of customer. If you can honestly tell him what you want (and it's harder than you think - "everything" is not a good answer), he can build you the perfect engine for your application.

Being new to this is an advantage in a way, because you don't come into this with preconceptions. Preconceptions are where money goes to die.

I've got a lot of preconceptions, and I pay to have them disproved with my own hard-earned money. I've had every permutation of Type 1 from a 1641 that made less than 50 psi of compression to a 200 hp 2332. The sweet spot is somewhere in the middle.

For an easy, cool running, and happy engine, I'd stay away from 94 cylinders - I've had them on 75% of the engines I've had, and they're fine if you know what you are getting into are are prepared to live with the compromises. For a cruiser or GT, 90.5s are just nicer and cooler running. Better yet are 92mm thick-walls, but now I'm just being weird. Happiness is a good ring-seal.

The go-to engine (IMHO) is the ubiquitous 2110, built with 5.4 rods, nice 40x35 heads (Timms Stage 1, Panchitos, or the like), and a W120 (or similar) cam.

Resist doing the Kadron thing - they're lawn-equipment carburetors, rude and simple. They get horrible gas mileage and don't run all that well. The truth hurts sometimes, but I'm not here to replace your mommy. Stay away from Kadrons.

You'll need to bite the bullet and just resign yourself to fighting a nice set of Dellorto or Weber carbs in the 40 mm range... unless you are independently wealthy or are both a mechanical AND an electronic savant (and are also coincidentally independently wealthy. "Wealth" is the prerequisite constant here either way) and want to do a custom EFI setup (bring your own soldering iron).

If you do the sensible thing and stick with the carbs, prepare yourself for the need to learn to sync the carbs and clean the idle jets. If you can't do it yourself (and I couldn't at first), ingratiate yourself to somebody who can. Buy a 6-pack or a nice ribeye for them. Be a friend. Ask a ton of questions. Name your unborn children after them. Buy the tools they tell you to. You'll learn more than you wanted to, and will be glad you did.

Whatever you do, don't cheap out. Be prepared to wait. The ACVW hobby is filled with thieves and charlatans, often with decades of "experience" separating people and their money. Buy once, cry once.

In summary:

1. Pat Downs
2. Be honest and clear about your objectives
3. Prepare to do more than you are comfortable with
4. Be prepared to spend money

Good luck. Forewarned is forearmed.

.

The less you know about these engines, the more you need an experienced engine builder who knows how to listen to you. It's important that they do that, rather than build their usual 'formula' build from whatever parts it's easiest for them to source.

Don't worry about the mechanical details too much — just explain to the builder as honestly as you can how you intend to use the car and let them make the build decisions.

Your profile shows you're near Chicago, a large enough village to likely have some quality builders still in residence, although they're getting harder to track down. You may want to talk to some folks at a local VW club to see if such a builder exists nearby. Pat Downs is very good, and as a result also very busy.  It may be easier or more convenient working with someone local.

Dr. Galat is just close enough to you that he may have some local knowledge.

.

@Stan Galat I’ve been lurking for quite awhile and  take your posts to heart. They’re always well thought out & informational.

As someone that has a VMC  356 on order, with an AC Type 1 w the Solex/Kadrons, and who has very limited knowledge but just started reading John Muir’s “how to keep your…” Could you possibly explain Pat Down’s reasoning behind the current configuration they are going with in relation to the Kadrons/2332?

I'm planning (hopeful) that I’ll be doing the basic maintenance but will also take it in at the 3k intervals for professional look overs/dial ins etc. The shop I’ll be using is very familiar with them but, like myself were curious as to why they wouldn’t go with Webers/Dellortos instead. I’ve heard/know the Webers are a bit more fickle but is the juice worth the squeeze for a guy like myself to make the switch?

If you weren’t so staunchly against the Kadrons (per above post) I wouldn’t be as curious, but if Pat pairs them, wouldn’t that override the distaste for them for this particular application?

as an aside, I double checked the lead time difference today w Anna for an AC- T1 and the Suby. I’m still not 100% I want to go w the AC, but the lead time of 20 months for AC and 30 months for the Suby is helping make my decision for me

Thanks in advance,

Chappy,

Thanks so much for the props, but I'm just a pipefitter from flyover country who has never made a dime either building or selling replica speedsters and/or air-cooled engines. I'm a random internet personality, and you're dealing with professionals.

Please don't lose sight of that.

However, I think I can answer your questions, and maybe shed some light on my distaste for Kadrons, and why Greg/Pat are using them.

@Chappy posted:

As someone that has a VMC  356 on order, with an AC Type 1 w the Solex/Kadrons, and who has very limited knowledge but just started reading John Muir’s “how to keep your…” Could you possibly explain Pat Down’s reasoning behind the current configuration they are going with in relation to the Kadrons/2332?

Sure.

Top start with, the engine configurations predate Pat building engines for Vintage. Greg was using similar or the same combos before he started having Pat build them. There is a solid reason "why".

What Kadrons provide is simplicity - they don't plug idle jets like Webers and Dellortos, and they are comparatively easy to set up and maintain. Frustration with the carbs is at least 90% of why people run screaming from the Type 1 platform, and the cars themselves. Owning one of these cars is really a lifestyle (you'll understand that better once you have the car), and I think the decision to supply cars with this configuration is based on a desire to provide the easiest on-ramp possible for the care and feeding of a Speedster/Spyder.

I get that and I respect it. If I were in the business of building cars for a huge variety of people with varying levels of mechanical aptitude, most of whom have never driven a car with any type of carburetor (and the rest who have not for 45 years), I'd K.I.S.S. too, and develop something like this that everybody can live with.

I bought my first Speedster in 2000. I have a deep background repairing mechanical equipment and a history with domestic V8s running back to the 70s and early 80s when I was a punk kid from a small town who loved fast cars and took a full load of shop classes in high-school. Even with that background, the dual 40 IDFs on my first car vexed me to the point of frustration. Nobody in my part of the world (at least nobody that I could find) knew anything about them, so I was 100% on my own with badly written books and the world-wide interweb. Mostly, I just flopped and twitched out in the garage until I was ready to just shoot the stupid thing. I very nearly quit, and I'm definitely not a quitter.

I cycled through ICTs and Kadrons on various engines, trying to find the happy spot between "easy to work on" and "EFI-like throttle response". It took a heart-to-heart with Art Thraen from Salt Lake City (Art is no longer in the hobby, much to everybody's detriment) to understand that I just needed to bite the bullet and learn my way around a set of independent throat carbs to get to where I wanted to be. It took 5+ years to get to that starting point. Once I really dove in, it was like a light-switch in my head flipped, and I was on my way.

Not too many people are going to have that level of persistence, or the hardheadedness to keep shoveling money into the boilers of progress along the way. It's far, far easier to park the car, then "reluctantly sell" it after 2 or 3 years of being a garage anchor.

That's a pity, and it's why Greg is doing what he's doing.

@Chappy posted:

I'm planning (hopeful) that I’ll be doing the basic maintenance but will also take it in at the 3k intervals for professional look overs/dial ins etc. The shop I’ll be using is very familiar with them but, like myself were curious as to why they wouldn’t go with Webers/Dellortos instead. I’ve heard/know the Webers are a bit more fickle but is the juice worth the squeeze for a guy like myself to make the switch?

I'm of the opinion (probably mistaken) that the Kadrons are a good "introductory intake system", installed for the reasons I talked about above. If you have the kind of support network you seem to, you'd be an ideal candidate to just skip the training wheels and get straight into riding the bike.

In my opinion (and keeping in mind that my opinion and a dollar would buy a coffee at MdDonalds before the "recent troubles"), the Webers/Dellorto juice is absolutely worth the squeeze. I would strongly suspect that if you talked to Pat Downs about this, he'd agree 100%. If you asked for the 2332 with a set of 44 IDFs (not EMPI clones), I suspect he and Greg would happily supply them for the difference in cost.

Regardless, if you still own the car in a few years, you'll have them anyhow. They really are a much, much more sophisticated induction setup. They're not EFI. But if they're done right, and all of the planets are aligned - they're sublime.

To my knowledge, nobody has ever described Kadrons in those terms.

@Richard S posted:

Thank you for the recommendation. This is why I love these forums, you get the inside scoop :-)

My father was actually a somewhat famous racer back in the '60s. He and his friends loved building crazy engines that were totally inappropriate for street purposes. I guess I mention that because I'm wondering if Pat might be overkill for my intended usage?

BTW, you've motivated me to go back and dig into what really differentiates the Type 1 and 4 engines. Yes, I am totally new to this :-)

Not at all. He builds all of the motors for Carey and Greg so he can build whatever you like. And his reasons for using Kadrons on the engines he builds for Greg and Carey is simple, they're simple to maintain for the average owner. If you have the knowledge or access to the knowledge get Webers.

weber 44s are why i sold the speedy,,car wouldnt run more than a few days before U had to fiddle with them..

Great and very informative thread.

I'm quite handy with carbs, been tuning my dual SUs for over a decade now and have all the right equipment for the job. So now it comes down to type I or IV...

I reached out to Pat Downs via CB Performance (thanks for the tip).

After some research, I'm leaning strongly towards a type I engine. I don't have crazy power needs and it seems like maintenance will be far easier and parts much cheaper. Am I wrong or overlooking anything?

@Richard S posted:

I reached out to Pat Downs via CB Performance (thanks for the tip).

After some research, I'm leaning strongly towards a type I engine. I don't have crazy power needs and it seems like maintenance will be far easier and parts much cheaper. Am I wrong or overlooking anything?

No you are not. Get the type 1.  A 2270 L type 4 is probably my idea of the most fun most reliable air cooled flat 4 built. But you will have plenty of smiles with a 2110 type 1 and a much fuller wallet. I went with the 2650 type 4. With that kind of displacement not even Pat Downs could build a reliable type 1.

And with no Suby radiator in the frunk you can carry a couple of 12 packs. My Spyder…no.

@550 Phil posted:

No you are not. Get the type 1.  A 2270 L type 4 is probably my idea of the most fun most reliable air cooled flat 4 built. But you will have plenty of smiles with a 2110 type 1 and a much fuller wallet. I went with the 2650 type 4. With that kind of displacement not even Pat Downs could build a reliable type 1.

I’d bet with a big enough check he would.  JPM MS230 heads, 101.6 mm bore, 90 mm stroke in a TF-1 case.  2919cc all in a Type 1 package.  If you’re going to dream, dream big!

https://www.jpmotorsports.se/en/products#ms230

@Richard S If you are interested in buying a turn key 550 Spyder please reach out to me. I have a Brand New VM 550 with a Pat Downs 2332 cc and I may also have a barely used VM 550 with a Type IV Fat Performance motor soon.  Feel free to send me a private message if you want to connect to discuss further. Thanks

@LI-Rick posted:

I’d bet with a big enough check he would.  JPM MS230 heads, 101.6 mm bore, 90 mm stroke in a TF-1 case.  2919cc all in a Type 1 package.  If you’re going to dream, dream big!

https://www.jpmotorsports.se/en/products#ms230

I have an 86mm Berg crank and that's the dream- JPM heads, Nickies and 2789 cc's of Badassness!

Hey Roy,

Thanks but I'm actually looking for a project car...

Just spoke with Beck and there's a three year wait, even for rollers.

I knew about the wait time which is why I mentioned the turn key solutions without the wait. Figure 3 year wait for the roller project plus another year plus on the build. Not to mention that supply line issues for just about everything are really sucking the fun out of a build. Just let me know if you decide you want to explore my option.

We’ll. I’m not sure if I should thank this thread or curse it. Because I think I might be buying Roy’s Spyder.

let’s the proverbial madness begin.

.

@Chappy posted:

.

...We’ll. I’m not sure if I should thank this thread or curse it. Because I think I might be buying Roy’s Spyder...

Even if you tire of it in a few years, you'll likely be able to sell it for substantially more than you paid — not that many of us buy these as investments.

The best my credit union will currently do on a five-year CD is 2.5 per cent, and the CD is no fun to drive at all.

.

@Sacto Mitch

This is my thinking. In theory. The issue becomes if I don’t want to sell it, and then take possession of my on order 356 in 2 years. I also feel like I’m getting a fair price with how insane the current market is, but nobody knows what the future may hold in regards to the economy.

but holy smokes is this car gorgeous. I was quasi hoping it wasn’t one that I would love with the colors/specs, but it is.

“So sweetheart, I know we didn’t wake up today with intention of buying a 550 Spyder but…” I’m sure you can imagine how that convo went

@Chappy posted:

“So sweetheart, I know we didn’t wake up today with intention of buying a 550 Spyder but…” I’m sure you can imagine how that convo went

I'm imagining a cozy corner up by the window in a tiny little bistro in the arty part of town. A guy who can't speak any english playing a violin like he was born with it in his hand quietly providing ambiance in the far corner of the room. A friendly (but not too friendly) waiter recommending the escargot and a nice bottle of Krug's Clos du Mesnil as the hors d'oeuvre (which you order).

You held hands across the white tablecloth. You complimented her hair, her eyes. You told her she hadn't aged a day and that you wish you had another lifetime to spend with her.

You ordered the bœuf bourguignon. She had the salmon en papillote. You shared a Chocolate soufflé and espressos for desert.

You strolled arm in arm along the boardwalk. The day was glorious, and you mentioned how you've been experiencing a few mild heart palpitations - nothing to worry about, mind you, but just something not quite right. You talked about how you feel you may be coming to the end of your life, and how you wish you could have taken her on a solo cruise around the world on a yacht, but that it's probably too late now.

You mentioned that a guy you know had offered you a special car today - how you weren't really looking, but that the offer didn't seem accidental. All you could think was how fantastic it would be to have her in the right seat, sunglasses "just right", her scarf fluttering in the breeze - how it seemed more like a divine revelation of the path you were meant to take than a random guy on the internet selling a plastic car.

She cried a little, and you brushed her tear away. She kissed you and said she thought it was the best idea you've ever had.

... or something to that effect.

Richard S, I was in the same boat as you earlier this year when it came to ordering my engine.  Back in December 2020 I decided to order a Beck Speedster kit.  Yes, kit, not a roller or completely built.  Lots of debate in my head over Air cooled, Type 1 vs 4, Subaru, even Electric.  I went so far as to visit EV West in California to discuss electrification options.  In the end I decided to go for air cooled type 1, both for simplicity’s sake (I worked on a lot of air cooled type 1, type 4, and 911 sixes back in the late seventies and eighties) and lightness.  Though I used to build mostly stock air cooled engines 40 years ago, I decided to have Pat Downs build mine.  It is a 2017cc with dual Weber 44s and sidewinder exhaust.  It was a good discussion / interview process with Pat as to what I wanted.  It was just over $10K with the shipping from CA to SC.  Then to Rancho for a 3.88 IRS transaxle.  The transaxle and engine are now in my garage in Charleston, SC.  Next week I travel to Bremen to meet Carey and his team and to see my (hopefully) painted speedster.  Special Edition has been a pleasure to work with thus far.  I will finalize the trim and interior while I’m out there and hopefully get it this fall for assembly.  Then the fun starts!

@Sacto Mitch posted:

.

Even if you tire of it in a few years, you'll likely be able to sell it for substantially more than you paid — not that many of us buy these as investments.

The best my credit union will currently do on a five-year CD is 2.5 per cent, and the CD is no fun to drive at all.

.

@Stan Galat posted:

.... how fantastic it would be to have her in the right seat, sunglasses "just right", her scarf fluttering in the breeze - ....

... or something to that effect.

@Three Pedals (Chris) posted:

"The transaxle and engine are now in my garage in Charleston, SC.  Next week I travel to Bremen to meet Carey and his team and to see my (hopefully) painted speedster.  Special Edition has been a pleasure to work with thus far.  I will finalize the trim and interior while I’m out there and hopefully get it this fall for assembly.  Then the fun starts!"

PM sent.

Best thread ever! Even the wife admits that this approach would work.

I'm actually driving to Bremen tomorrow to meet Carey.

Wait - Am I missing something here?

Is @chines1 and company having some sort of "event" that we all should be showing up for?

I mean, there is a wedding we could do in Minneapolis this weekend and then swing over to Bremen or something 'cuz it's "on the way home", right?

@Richard S a few things to consider when doing a TIV in a spyder  They may have been mentioned, but I didn't see that in my skimming.

I guess first off is simply the fact that there are far more T1 engines in a Spyder, and the replicas were initially created for a Type 1 specifically, so any deviation from that will come with possible fabrication and custom parts/fitment.

Exhaust.  There are fewer choices for a TIV in a Spyder.  There IS a jigged TIV exhaust (I actually waiting on a header at the moment) and it is supposed to be an easy fit, but the design is less than ideal for a TIV.  I won't pretend to know all the specific on TIV back pressure and scavenging of the exhaust, but Chris at Tangerine Racing made a big deal on how important this was for a TIV and the mid engine layout coupled with the interference of the Spyder chassis made it very difficult to build a "proper" exhaust.

Conversion parts: flywheel/clutch isn't a big deal when the parts are available, but you'll need conversion parts to make the TIV 200mm.

You'll also need an upright fan conversion and usually a secondary oil cooler system.  Ive seen the best results in cooing from the DTM (Raby developed upright fan, now sold by LN Engineering) and I've seen a few 911 style that worked (FAT Performance was one) but there are also a lot of cheaper 911 and upright conversion fans that lack veins directing air and are crap.

Fan shroud will dictate what throttle linkage you can fit on the motor.

Also, oil fill is different, most Ive seen have an oil filler dded to the valve cover since the upright shroud blocks the use of the stock filler.  I just find this weird and although its never been an issue, I just don't feel right dumping quarts of oil into the valve cover for some reason...

The TIV motor is longer than the T1.  This is not an issue in the spyder replicas without a torsion bar but ones with a torsion bar you'll need to set the motor back slightly to clear the torsion bar tube.

@Three Pedals (Chris) your speedster is going into the paint booth this weekend.  As long as my paint rep drops off the material as promised, you'll be all painted by Sunday night.  By the way, that is actually by design as my painter prefers to spray on the weekends when there is less commotion in the shop, so he works his schedule for prep during the week and painting Sat/Sun.

@Gordon Nichols posted:

Wait - Am I missing something here?

Is @chines1 and company having some sort of "event" that we all should be showing up for?

No, just normal (LONG) work weeks here... We've actually had more visitors this year than in the past, which is nice.  I enjoy doing brief tours and showing off projects and such.

I'm looking forward to today's visit as well... been wanting to come by for a few years but had been too busy with my MGA restoration.

It's weird that I've known Carey since '05, bought a car from him in '06, had many a beer with him at Carlisle numerous times, bought a second car more recently, and yet I've never been to Bremen.  I really need to fix that.

@Lane Anderson posted:

I've never been to Bremen.  I really need to fix that.

What?!

You need to get out more, Laner.

@Richard S posted:

I reached out to Pat Downs via CB Performance (thanks for the tip).

After some research, I'm leaning strongly towards a type I engine. I don't have crazy power needs and it seems like maintenance will be far easier and parts much cheaper. Am I wrong or overlooking anything?

Pat Downs has retired from CB Performance and they are not happy he left. They may try to sell/build you an engine but it won't be Pat building it for you. I will PM you his contact information.

@Robert M posted:

Pat Downs has retired from CB Performance and they are not happy he left.

Then they should probably have given him a stake in the game - it would have been much better for them in the long run.

CBP without Pat is going to wither away or be sold (probably to EMPI). Pat Downs is the driving force behind 90% (or more) of the innovation in the ACVW world.