Build starting soon

I wish Greg had the rack and pinion option when I ordered my Speedster.  The worm and roller is a pitiful steering mechanism in my mind.

Jason

My spyder has a 200hp Suby and a nice 4 speed with an LSD. Without a doubt the sloppy steering is the biggest performance limitation. If Greg figures out how to install R&P steering in a spyder I might ship it back to LA. The packaging in a spyder might be a problem, as discussed by Danny P.

@550 Phil posted:

My spyder has a 200hp Suby and a nice 4 speed with an LSD. Without a doubt the sloppy steering is the biggest performance limitation. If Greg figures out how to install R&P steering in a spyder I might ship it back to LA. The packaging in a spyder might be a problem, as discussed by Danny P.

From what I understand, Greg has fitted up the rack and pinion kit that I sent him.  All looks good with fitting the chassis.  I don’t know if he fitted the body back on, but he didn’t seem to think that would be much issue to move the firewall if necessary.  

He is trying to source them, as they are not available in the US.  They are from a European VW Polo, 1st and maybe 2nd generation.  The guy that makes the kit is from Finland.  If Greg can get the racks, making the other parts would be pretty easy.

Those R&P rigs seem overly complicated to me. I’m surprised no one has figured out how to adapt these to simply bolt to the beam. They’re £210 from Moss.

I have been told that there is a bump steer issue when adding R&P to a beam axle.  Not sure what the particulars are, though.

@dlearl476 posted:

Those R&P rigs seem overly complicated to me. I’m surprised no one has figured out how to adapt these to simply bolt to the beam. They’re £210 from Moss.

You assume they haven't. It was an option for years on IMs, and I've got an RP setup on my beam.

The "overly complicated" rigs are better.

@dlearl476 posted:

Those R&P rigs seem overly complicated to me. I’m surprised no one has figured out how to adapt these to simply bolt to the beam. They’re £210 from Moss.

I'm not sure how this is overly complicated?    

@Lane Anderson, center steer, look where the tie rods attach to the rack, they are almost equal length.  No bump steer.

@Lane Anderson posted:

I have been told that there is a bump steer issue when adding R&P to a beam axle.  Not sure what the particulars are, though.

There is only a bump steer issue when attempting to use a modern long rack and pinion. A modern long rack is designed to be used with either double A-arms or a lower A-arm and upper shock/strut(a-la-early-911). The inner tie-rod ends should pivot at the same vertical plane as the inner suspension joint.

If properly positioned, the Polo rack will actually LESSEN bump steer from the level that's already there with the factory VW gearbox/pitman arm/unequal length tie rods.

@dlearl476 posted:

Those R&P rigs seem overly complicated to me. I’m surprised no one has figured out how to adapt these to simply bolt to the beam. They’re £210 from Moss.

The actual tie rod length on these racks is WAY too short to be used with a VW twin trailing arm suspension. You will get MASSIVE bump steer with this arrangement. The "overly complicated" Polo rack is done for a reason.

The Polo rack has similar bump steer to what we do with Formula Vee: the steering box is in the middle of the beam so the tie rods are equal length. If the steering box is rotated so that there is minimal tie-rod length change over suspension travel, you can minimize bump steer. In fact, I have mine set up to give VERY slight toe-in under braking(bump) to stabilize corner entry. The front wheels return to neutral toe after the brake is released and the suspension rises a touch.

@JasonC posted:

I wish Greg had the rack and pinion option when I ordered my Speedster.  The worm and roller is a pitiful steering mechanism in my mind.

Jason

A well-adjusted and tight box works well enough. Maybe yours needs some work?

But yes, I would have loved to complete the rack install on my Spyder. I didn't want to cut and re-shape the fiberglass and carpet in my finished car.

My first IM (used) had worm gear steering.  I was happy with that until I drove George Brown's silver speedster, and noticed the difference.

And it was quite a difference.

My next IM had R&P steering.

The IM way was to adapt a Golf/Rabbit rack, as per David’s picture. I agree with Bob’s observation- I had two cars with worm-gear boxes before this one, and the difference in feel is pretty stark, but I can tell you firsthand that bump-steer is one more thing I contend with for the excitement of driving a clown car.

I’ve driven Danny’s Spyder, so I understand how good a properly adjusted worm-gear box  can be, but I’ve never driven one adjusted and setup that well anywhere else, so it’s certainly not an average datapoint. A rack doesn’t need adjustments, so there’s that.

Regardless, the Polo rack seems like the best possible solution if we’re running a beam (and most of us are). All upside, no downside.

Stan.

Bump steer is a real annoyance in these cars.  My current car does not have that problem (you know why), and it's a lot more fun to drive.

What got me thinking about it is seeing a Formula Ford rack. Seems like it would be relatively simple to design one of these with equal length tie rods. (There may be more to it than that that I obviously don’t understand.)

Seems like there’s a lot of extra hardware on those Rube Goldberged Polo racks.

The steering on my VM is a little loose, can anyone point me to a guide/tutorial on how to “tighten” it up? Is it complex?

@dlearl476 posted:

What got me thinking about it is seeing a Formula Ford rack. Seems like it would be relatively simple to design one of these with equal length tie rods. (There may be more to it than that that I obviously don’t understand.)

Seems like there’s a lot of extra hardware on those Rube Goldberged Polo racks.

It's not the tie rods being equal length so much but how short they are when used on a  VW beam.  Read up on bump steer, and what causes it, and it should become obvious why the polo rack is a good option.

That sand rail rack that you posted would be way too twitchy in a street car, as they are very fast ratio.  Do you know what the steering ratio is of a Formula rack?

@NeenahSpeedster posted:

The steering on my VM is a little loose, can anyone point me to a guide/tutorial on how to “tighten” it up? Is it complex?

Paging @DannyP, Danny P:

Dr. Piperato, wanted in surgery.

@dlearl476 posted:

Seems like there’s a lot of extra hardware on those Rube Goldberged Polo racks.

All you're showing me with that statement is what you don't know. Nobody is going to want to educate you with negative statements like that.

@NeenahSpeedster posted:

The steering on my VM is a little loose, can anyone point me to a guide/tutorial on how to “tighten” it up? Is it complex?

I'd start with a Bentley manual, and follow it for checking the front end and adjusting things. It's all pretty basic mechanical stuff.

@DannyP posted:

All you're showing me with that statement is what you don't know. Nobody is going to want to educate you with negative statements like that.

I calls em like I sees em. Sorry if I offended your delicate sensibilities.

@LI-Rick posted:

It's not the tie rods being equal length so much but how short they are when used on a  VW beam.  Read up on bump steer, and what causes it, and it should become obvious why the polo rack is a good option.

That sand rail rack that you posted would be way too twitchy in a street car, as they are very fast ratio.  Do you know what the steering ratio is of a Formula rack?

Yeah, I posted the pic of the sand rail to illustrate where my imagination is going. Most of the info I could find on ratios was 2.5 lock to lock. Like you say, the sand rail is probably quicker than that. From my cursory search, I think you can get any ratio you want, but custom ones might be prohibitively expensive. Some of the Lotus FFs I looked at were ~$1200-$1500. A Chaterham 7 one is $900.

eta: I just checked and my Smart rack is 3 lock to lock. I don’t think I’d want anything twitchier than than in our light cars.

@NeenahSpeedster posted:

The steering on my VM is a little loose, can anyone point me to a guide/tutorial on how to “tighten” it up? Is it complex?

https://www.speedsterowners.co...5#600298945702956005

@dlearl476 posted:

Yeah, I posted the pic of the sand rail to illustrate where my imagination is going. Most of the info I could find on ratios was 2.5 lock to lock. Like you say, the sand rail is probably quicker than that. From my cursory search, I think you can get any ratio you want, but custom ones might be prohibitively expensive. Some of the Lotus FFs I looked at were ~$1200-$1500. A Chaterham 7 one is $900.

I’m not sure why you think the polo rack is overly complicated.  I see one additional part as compared to any conventional rack, and that is the bracket that connects the two inner tie rods to the rack itself.

@dlearl476 posted:

I calls em like I sees em. Sorry if I offended your delicate sensibilities.

You didn't bother me in the least.

But something an old friend told me a long time ago comes to mind:

"When people show you who they are, believe them."

@LI-Rick posted:

I’m not sure why you think the polo rack is overly complicated.  I see one additional part as compared to any conventional rack, and that is the bracket that connects the two inner tie rods to the rack itself.

This part is a custom-fabbed heavier version of the OE VW part that is no longer available.

@DannyP posted:

You didn't bother me in the least.

But something an old friend told me a long time ago comes to mind:

"When people show you who they are, believe them."

Maya Angelou’s quote is actually “When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.”

Maybe you should have listened to your “old friend” the first time and ignored me after you got so triggered after my all-season tire posts.

I’m just spit-balling here. No need to get your dander up. But “you do you.”

@LI-Rick posted:

I’m not sure why you think the polo rack is overly complicated.  I see one additional part as compared to any conventional rack, and that is the bracket that connects the two inner tie rods to the rack itself.

I don’t think it’s overly complicated. It just looks jury rigged to me with one end capped off and a bent steel adapter holding both the tie rods on the other end. I’m sure it works fine. It just seems inelegant.

@Stan Galat thank you…….this will give me a winter project……now that driving season in wisconsin is quickly drawing to a close

@dlearl476 posted:

I don’t think it’s overly complicated. It just looks jury rigged to me with one end capped off and a bent steel adapter holding both the tie rods on the other end. I’m sure it works fine. It just seems inelegant.

The end isn’t capped off, that is how it is built.  That center tie rod adapter is factory also.  Maybe you should contact VW and voice your displeasure with their design.

@LI-Rick posted:

The end isn’t capped off, that is how it is built.  That center tie rod adapter is factory also.  Maybe you should contact VW and voice your displeasure with their design.

Lol

Maybe I will. Right after I give them a piece of my mind about the Golf/polo/Super beetle suspension on my 968.

@NeenahSpeedster posted:

@Stan Galat thank you…….this will give me a winter project……now that driving season in wisconsin is quickly drawing to a close

Mine starts tomorrow. All the way down to the short block (hopefully)

Whatever you do, don't express your opinion about pie. Especially pumpkin spice pie.

I used to have one pumpkin spice latte a year. You know, for tradition.
Then I found out they have something like 25 teaspoons of sugar in them.

It’s officially begun. Had to commit to color and some cosmetic pieces like a hard rear tonneau with head rest. So copying this Emory but painting it Porsche Grey Black. It’s a non metallic color.  

@550 Phil posted:

It’s officially begun. Had to commit to color and some cosmetic pieces like a hard rear tonneau with head rest. So copying this Emory but painting it Porsche Grey Black. It’s a non metallic color.  

Phil:

For further inspiration, you might want to look at Keith Hoffnagle's car that was built by John Wilhoit. I think it is on Wilhoit's site. Keith has had Wilhoit restore several of his cars, but the cab done around 2012 might interest you.

Can you give me more info so I can find it. I don’t see owner names. Assuming it’s under restorations completed.

C'mon, Mike, I like love talking about pie!  Strawberry rhubarb is still my favorite, although I'd certainly never turn down a slice of cherry, or apple (especially if made with demerara sugar), or lemon, or...