I hate this tool.

Your picture didn't post Gordon. I've had some issues with that so I replaced the screw with a torx head screw in the same configuration/size and used anti-seize on the threads and the sloped portion of the head.

https://accu-components.com/us...k8IJsxhoCZoIQAvD_BwE

I agree, it's the countersink sticking/corroding to the rotor. I've usually had good luck with the hand impact driver and a 2lb BFH. Clean the Phillips recess with a pick, set the driver in (make sure it's square to the screw), pre-load it in the direction it'll twist and don't be bashful with the BFH. WHAP!

Alternatively, don't bother trying and just drill it out. Probably takes close to the same amount of time.

On reassembly put some anti seize on the threads and countersink. Then next time you replace a rotor you can leave the hammer and impact driver in the drawer of your toolbox.

Since the image doesn't show, I am wondering what the tool is that Gordon hates.

@Robert M posted:

Your picture didn't post Gordon.

That's because he didn't post it as an attachment and then click the "Insert all images and video into post body (large size)" button.

@Michael McKelvey posted:

Since the image doesn't show, I am wondering what the tool is that Gordon hates.

I'm assuming a 1/4" impact driver, a tool which I use so often I have a small version in my tool bag. We use Milwaukee everything. I've got an M18 in my main drill/impact kit and an M12 in my bag. The M12 is surprisingly powerful.

Good impact tools have variable torque settings. If I snap a fastener off (and it happens sometimes when driving a sheetmetal screw into steel plate if the pre-drilled hole is too small), I either use a different fastener, drill a bigger hole, or back the torque off the tool.

YMMV.

@Stan Galat posted:

That's because he didn't post it as an attachment and then click the "Insert all images and video into post body (large size)" button.

At least I'm not suffering from CSS, Can't See Shyt.

@Robert M posted:

Your picture didn't post Gordon. I've had some issues with that so I replaced the screw with a torx head screw in the same configuration/size and used anti-seize on the threads and the sloped portion of the head.

https://accu-components.com/us...k8IJsxhoCZoIQAvD_BwE

Neat link. I'm always looking for a Fastenal or Ace HW alternative.

I would point out, however, that Stainless Steel fasteners are generally quite a bit more prone to twist off than the hardened regular steel in grade 5 or 8 (or 10.9 or 12.9 in Metric). They won't rust in place, but they aren't very robust fasteners.

@Robert M posted:

At least I'm not suffering from CSS, Can't See Shyt.

That is a good reminder. It was more or less to show him what I was talking about. I agree hardened steel would be better. But then again, that screw is just to hold the rotor is place while you put the wheels back on a really secure everything with the lug nuts. I don't even tighten them that much, just snug. I have never had an issue removing them the next time. I try to keep my old man strength in check. I usually forgo the Wheaties and the spinach before working on the car.

The problem is North American Philips screws and tools are different than Japanese Philips, or JIS.  I've owned Toyota 4wd trucks as my main transportation for going on 39 years now, done a lot of my own repair/maintenance and always had trouble with their (what I thought were) Philips screws.  I only found out a year (or 2?) ago about this and after a fair bit of looking found JIS1 and JIS2 bits at Chapman Manufacturing             https://chapmanmfg.com/product...indus-std-jis-screws

@Robert M posted:

I don't even tighten them that much, just snug. I have never had an issue removing them the next time. I try to keep my old man strength in check. I usually forgo the Wheaties and the spinach before working on the car.

I am regionally renown for my "spot torque" of fasteners (tighten it until you see spots). Justin McCallister of Blackline Racing said I have "Chevy hands".

Baboon Ebony Veneer, baby.

Thanks ALB!

I just had to replace the front stabilizer bushings and brackets on my 2017 Taco. First time doing any work on it. I noticed the difference in the philips heads on the skid plate. Thanks for clearing that up.!

(The bolts connecting the brackets and the bushings to the frame backed out and also broke out the mounting nuts in the frame at two connection points. I had to drill through the existing openings and then through top of the frame and put in bolts washers and nuts to get it reattached. No fun. Lots of time with the drill.)

@ALB posted:

The problem is North American Philips screws and tools are different than Japanese Philips, or JIS.  I've owned Toyota 4wd trucks as my main transportation for going on 39 years now, done a lot of my own repair/maintenance and always had trouble with their (what I thought were) Philips screws.  I only found out a year (or 2?) ago about this and after a fair bit of looking found JIS1 and JIS2 bits at Chapman Manufacturing             https://chapmanmfg.com/product...indus-std-jis-screws

Right-hand-man Brad sent me this. Not entirely true, but true enough. Spline drive Phillips/slot get a partial pass. Square drive can be tolerated, barely.

A screwhead beauty contest.

Congratulations to all of us "WingNuts".............Bruce

In my defense, I added the image as an attachment file from a folder on my laptop after pulling it from Google.  The problem was that the image was a “jpg.webj” format - whatever the heck that is, but the SOC server didn’t like it.

I didn’t see the difference until after it was posted and I had taken off on a bike ride.  When I returned I replaced it with a real JPG (using the same attachment process) and so far it looks OK, so maybe you can all see it.   So even when you try to do everything right, you might still have image attachment problems.  I blame it all on the Software guys.

Anyway, in my opinion, either this is a really terrible tool (which I wholeheartedly believe), or I’ve been screwed by a combination of Japanese versus American screw heads (Don’t quite believe that one, yet), or this is a great tool that I am not using correctly (which has been known to happen from time to time), or those screws never should have had Phillips heads on them in the first place (a Hex socket makes much more sense).

I have spoken….

My Mazda 6 was the same.  I cannot recall exactly how I got the MF-ing screws out, must have drilled them.  And I put it all back together without any screws that day, because --- what else was I gonna do?.  Asked a service tech at a dealer WTF with those idiot screws, and he said he had no idea, other than as an aid during assembly in the factory to keep the disks in place until the wheels were applied.  Or maybe to help you stop if all of the studs came undone.  I think he was joking about that one.  I later ordered some flat heads but with allen sockets vs phillips,  and that seemed to work -- also used Neversieze. With or without the screws applied, the car/brakes worked perfectly, so totally superfluous as far as I am concerned.

And as for all those hybrid screw heads: for cars, you get what you get, more or less.  For carpentry, I have totally gone over to Torx.  almost never use nails anymore.  although I did finally get an air driven pin nailer, which tool is the absolute bomb for finish carpentry.  Or for just holding something while you get a real screw set.  And what's the latest thing here??  YMMV??

@Stan Galat posted:

Neat link. I'm always looking for a Fastenal or Ace HW alternative.

I would point out, however, that Stainless Steel fasteners are generally quite a bit more prone to twist off than the hardened regular steel in grade 5 or 8 (or 10.9 or 12.9 in Metric). They won't rust in place, but they aren't very robust fasteners.

Good point -- your shiny stainless steel, austenitic, fasteners are super soft.  They have a minimum yield strength of about ~32,000 psi.  In comparison, a garden variety grade 5 fastener has a minimum yield of around ~90,000 psi --- about three times the strength.

Jason

Our friends at Apple (and Dell and Lenovo and others) have been using more and more weird screw heads as a “security” effort over the years to prevent “DIY” technicians from working on their own own PCs.  My personal pet-peeve is using “Y” screws, but they bug me for a different reason.  They’re like a Phillips, but it looks like a “Y”.  The tools available from Amazon/China are not hardened properly and the tool strips off just before the screw strips out.  This is typically in a laptop so I’m not about to go drilling the heads out unless I can contain the drilling sputem. It’s like Subaru, Acura, Lexus and many others making DIY repairs more and more difficult because they don’t give DIY mechanics access to their on-board maintenance systems to enter that something as simple as an oil change has been performed.

Technology creep.  It’s not just for computers, anymore.

I wouldn't bother putting a screw back in.  In another life, I worked as a tech at a Lincoln/Mercury dealer.  Ford used push nuts to hold the rotors on. Do you think anyone ever replaced these?

@Gordon Nichols, if you use the forum photo feature, your photos will last as long as the forum exists.  Look at all the forums where people used Photobucket to post their photos, those threads are useless now.

This is the reason I stopped allowing external hosting of attachments on my forum.

@LI-Rick posted:

I wouldn't bother putting a screw back in.  In another life, I worked as a tech at a Lincoln/Mercury dealer.  Ford used push nuts to hold the rotors on. Do you think anyone ever replaced these?

I remember those "push nuts" being used for brake drums, but not rotors.

Jason

I have a Craftsman Impact Driver I bought 10-15 years ago before I put a 60-gallon compressor in the shop and got some real impact tools.

I used that hand driver on several things and I think it worked every time except once, getting one of the heads off the Subaru 2.2 I was then putting in Bridget.

For mere screws it always worked.

@ALB Thanks you I never knew this and will endeavor to get some proper Japanese drivers and remember it.

I have an old K&D Tools  1/2" impact driver. The Phillips bits are fine. The slotted bits I have are both twisted. I think I need new ones, or maybe I'll heat and bend back.

But other than that it works just fine. Square it, twist it, HIT it!

As to the SS screws, they are fine for holding rotors. They aren't really holding anything. On modern day Porsches, Audis, and VWs they all have lug bolts. These little screws keep it all lined up.

A lot of Porsches also use wheel spacers. In this case, a longer screw goes through the spacer and rotor into the hub.

I also slather them with Never-Seize when I install them, and they never give me trouble after that.

@edsnova posted:

I have a Craftsman Impact Driver I bought 10-15 years ago before I put a 60-gallon compressor in the shop and got some real impact tools.

Interesting (to me, at least) aside: I've always had air tools, and laughed at other people using cordless impacts. My shop has a Quincy 2-stage pump with an 80 gallon tank, so I've never lacked air. I bought one of the early 110v impacts to use out on the driveway and found it heavy and weak. It's lived in a drawer forgotten now for 15 years.

A friend and mechanical genius made fun of me using my air-driven impacts when I had a truck full of M18 tools and batteries. Trips to the tire shop also gave me a bit of pause when I observed that even though they had air piped everywhere, they were all  using cordless (not air) impacts.

One day while in Farm and Fleet, I saw the heavy-duty Fuel M18 1/2" impact on sale and decided to see what was the fuss.

Oh my goodness.

That stupid tool has easily 2x the power than any of my C/P air impacts. It will easily twist a hardened 1/2" bolt in half. It's staggering, and I had no idea. Cordless impact wrenches have come a long, long way. They're amazing.

@edsnova- You can just imagine my surprise (along with a fair bit of disgust) when I found out EVERY Philips screw I'd ever messed with on all 3 vehicles over the years ('86 4wd pick up, '94 4Runner and now the '08 FJ Cruiser) WASN'T a Philips!  And in those 35+ years I've never seen this tidbit mentioned in any owner's or repair manual.  Toyota uses a lot of JIS (I believe it stands for Japanese Industrial Standard) screws on their vehicles, especially in the interior to hold dash and trim pieces, and over the years I've bought new Philips #1 & #2 screwdrivers a couple of times, thinking they were wearing out.  The bigger JIS screws (usually in the engine compartment) have a hex head as well (10mm?) and I've learned it's easier to just go for the socket.

I looked everywhere locally (only 1 guy in a tool store knew what I was even talking about) before going online and Chapman MFG was where I finally found them.

I didn't get enough info from @ALB in his post and still wondered:

"How does one tell if a "Phillips" head screw is Japanese (JIS) style or the garden-variety, 'Murican bit once invented by Henry Frank Phillips???  

That's what I asked of my Japanese Motorcycle Racing neighbor and he sent me to this website:

https://www.motorcycle.com/ask...se-jis-phillips.html

My next unanswered question is, "Do Japanese manufacturers really put a dot on the screw head of a JIS screw?  I guess we'll find out.  In the meantime, I'll buy a set of JIS driver bits.

And now, I feel edumacated.  Enlightened, almost.  On my way along the path to Nirvana.  Or Amazon tools.  Whichever comes first.

🎶 I'm on a stairway to Paradise.  

I take a new step every day !  

I'm gonna get there at any price;
Stand aside, I'm on my way !  🎶

(Eternal Thanks to George Gershwin)

I have used that tool with fairly consistent success on a 1946 Dodge Power Wagon that sat under a tree on a farm in Mississippi for about 40 years.  The screws, bolts, etc. that did not come out, I had to drill, or use an EZ out of some sort, or even weld to a bolt.  Using that hand impact driver never resulted in anything being stripped, but sometimes it just would not move.  I doubt it is you not using the tool properly.  Some fasteners are just too rusty to come out in one piece.  Oh yeah, I also sprayed with something for multiple days when screws would not back out.  I don't remember the "something's" name.

(just remembered, it is Gibb's)

Stan - Are you crazy?!  I absolutely adore the six lobe,
"star" or "Torx", drive screws for wood construction.  I don't think I have ever stripped one, whereas the same cannot be said for Phillips drive.  And slot head screws?  Why were those ever invented, and even more so, why are they ever used?  I use square head for drywall.  How many times have you been a little off center and the Phillips bit slips out of the screw and into the crease of your finger joint?  OWWWW!  Never happens with a square drive.  Are my screw driving abilities less than perfect?  Yeah, but my fingers don't have any holes in them right now.

Naaah....   It's probably me.  I just inventoried my impact bits and the PH #4 tip looked a lot like a corkscrew after I had been using it last and the screw didn't let go, so I just ordered up a new set of 5/16" drive bits (Vessel) as well as a set of #1 - #4 JIS 1/4" drive bits from Rhino to add to the tool stash (Everything from Amazon).

OK, so the jury's still out on whether I still hate this tool.  Maybe it was the lack of proper bits and all that Jazz (Thanks, Al), or maybe I should have used my "Fire Wrench" on them to pre-loosen things, or maybe it's from the scars on my left hand from when I missed with the hammer (ouch), or maybe it's still just a sucky tool.  

We'll see.

i built a large deck using only screws, no nails, out of the composite materials..first screws were square drive(not really good) then I went to torx and they were fantastic,,very few stripped heads..

@howdo posted:

Stan - Are you crazy?!  I absolutely adore the six lobe,
"star" or "Torx", drive screws for wood construction.

@Stan Galat posted:

Right-hand-man Brad sent me this. Not entirely true, but true enough. Spline drive Phillips/slot get a partial pass. Square drive can be tolerated, barely.

The partial pass is for construction screws. Same with square drive. They're the bomb in framing applications.

We use 1/4, 5/16, and 3/8 hex-head self-tapping screws everywhere when working with sheetmetal.

I know it's the slow season, but the meme was meant as a joke.

Loved the thread.  Worked in a motorcycle shop while getting 1st degree at Univ of KS that in addition to the early Yamahas carried BSA and Norton.  We used impact drivers on case covers, etc., typically, and the Japaneses bikes tolerated them, the British bikes in a low percentage of success and a high ratio of stripping heads.  I learned to use the loading torque technique, but, even with the right bit size lots of strips, even with a cautious approach.  Seemed like the materials the Brits used for screws didn't hold up.  Lots of replacement hardware on hand after drilling, tapping and replacement.  Pay very close attention to correct bit sizes now, and like some of the new heads. Discussion of early Brit gaskets (made from brown toilet paper or grocery bags?) and Lucas speedos/ tachs for a different day.  Idaho

@Stan Galat posted:

Interesting (to me, at least) aside: I've always had air tools, and laughed at other people using cordless impacts. My shop has a Quincy 2-stage pump with an 80 gallon tank, so I've never lacked air. I bought one of the early 110v impacts to use out on the driveway and found it heavy and weak. It's lived in a drawer forgotten now for 15 years.

A friend and mechanical genius made fun of me using my air-driven impacts when I had a truck full of M18 tools and batteries. Trips to the tire shop also gave me a bit of pause when I observed that even though they had air piped everywhere, they were all  using cordless (not air) impacts.

One day while in Farm and Fleet, I saw the heavy-duty Fuel M18 1/2" impact on sale and decided to see what was the fuss.

Oh my goodness.

That stupid tool has easily 2x the power than any of my C/P air impacts. It will easily twist a hardened 1/2" bolt in half. It's staggering, and I had no idea. Cordless impact wrenches have come a long, long way. They're amazing.

You made me laugh when you said you were never running out of air… I have learned the same lesson with Milwaukee tools seeing a quarter inch drive with full clutch drive sheet metal screws and others without overtorquing was the first and then torque wrenches has so much torque not to mention using a STS through our 1936 Cement basement walls drilling 1 inch hole in a minute or less …. Let’s just say my shop is getting red tools every time I turn around I still have a few I should say a lot of Ryobi, Naylors, stapler, etc. and all the other normal tools that are just sitting there now as I reach for red I even got a Milwaukee M2 tire inflator it’s the cats miaow and I’m actually thinking of getting rid of my 60 gallon air compressor except I still use it just to blow things off I gave up on all the air tools.

@Robert M posted:

At least I'm not suffering from CSS, Can't See Shyt.

Are you living at my house … it’s hard to grow old

@IaM-Ray posted:

Are you living at my house … it’s hard to grow old

Father Time and I seem to be in a cage match every month as I try and refuse to age. He seems to get the best of me some days and I win on the others.

I am also on the side of, cordless is better. Some time ago I bought a Ryobi impact wrench since I had some batteries lying around. Needless to say, with the batteries I had on hand, it had trouble taking off one lug nut and couldn't do the whole wheel without needing a second battery. I threw it in the bottom of the tool cabinet and went and bought an air gun. All of a sudden I thought I was a real mechanic. I envisioned buying every air tool I thought I could use but then realized I wasn't running a body shop. Last year or so a friend had an extra 18v Ryobi 4aH battery and gave it to me. I tried my cordless impact again a voilà. Not only could it properly remove a lug nut, it could remove and replace all four wheels. Do I wish I spent the money on a better quality cordless impact? Sure, but it seems to be working fine for now. It's my last Ryobi as I've switched to Team Makita, so when it needs to be replaced I'll go with that.

@Robert M posted:

I am also on the side of, cordless is better. Some time ago I bought a Ryobi impact wrench since I had some batteries lying around. Needless to say, with the batteries I had on hand, it had trouble taking off one lug nut and couldn't do the whole wheel without needing a second battery. I threw it in the bottom of the tool cabinet and went and bought an air gun. All of a sudden I thought I was a real mechanic. I envisioned buying every air tool I thought I could use but then realized I wasn't running a body shop. Last year or so a friend had an extra 18v Ryobi 4aH battery and gave it to me. I tried my cordless impact again a voilà. Not only could it properly remove a lug nut, it could remove and replace all four wheels. Do I wish I spent the money on a better quality cordless impact? Sure, but it seems to be working fine for now. It's my last Ryobi as I've switched to Team Makita, so when it needs to be replaced I'll go with that.

After living the same experience…. Well I took a power bar to break the seal and then used the ryobi impact wrench  I do find putting them on with the impact wrench gets them just about right… I check them after with a torque wrench.  

Then my progeniture, comes with a simple red driver, not an impact and can remove the lugs first crack… Now I am getting red tools slowly…

I guess I'm a neanderthal.

I rarely use power tools unless I can't get stuff apart, and the same goes with assembly.

I also have a bad wrist on my dominant hand and I've had it wrenched severely several times, so I ratchet and grunt.

Señor @Panhandle Bob wrote: "I also have a bad wrist on my dominant hand and I've had it wrenched severely several times, so I ratchet and grunt."

Yeah, yeah.....  I've got a 40-year-old Ganglion Cyst wrapped around my dominant wrist bones and the thumb on that hand hasn't worked right since I tried to snap it off as a 6-year-old on the farm.  But I STILL do power tools.  (I now just leverage my 1/2" drive, 1hp power drill against something that isn't ME when I use the damn thing after getting wrecked a couple of times).