Correct me if I'm wrong: Berg 5 would be the only semi-commercially available swing axle option, yes?
But, like, Angela's & other 6-cylinder cars have 5 speeds, right?
Yes. The Berg5 requires a new mounting system for the nose cone end as the trans becomes physically longer.
The 6 cylinder TR cars had either 901 or 915 transmissions and DeDion rear suspension. In my opinion DeDion is not an improvement on a swing axle.
No swing axles for me... that I know for sure.
When I built my Spyder Greg Leach asked me it I wanted to go on long highway drives in my Spyder or did I want the car to be quick and fun with close ratios. I had no desire to take my Spyder on long highway drives. I’ve got a nice trailer and a diesel SUV so if I want to take the car to the Smokies I’ll put it on the trailer. I keep it in Charlottesville Va so I’m already 20 minutes to the Blue Ridge Parkway. I’ve got a powerful Suby engine with a LSD and a 3.88 R&P. I’m at 4000 rpms at 70mph. But I don’t care. The car is never on the highway and all other times it’s VERY quick.
One of these days I’ll be building a speedster with a 2.65L type 4. I told Greg that I want to be around 3000 rpms at 70mph. I need to be at a reasonably high rpm at 70 to cool that big engine. I’ll be using a 3.44 R&P. The car will be powerful and fast but won’t be near as quick as my Spyder. Yup. There’s always a compromise.
@Richard S posted:No swing axles for me... that I know for sure.
Well, that really confuses me. It was my impression that Beck Spyders are all SA.
They are. So are all vintage spyders. However vintage is currently building an IRS after years working on it. I’m perfectly fine with the SA in my Spyder. Since IRS is readily available in pan based speedsters I’ll be doing IRS in my speedster. But Stan is correct. Carey will not be offering IRS in a Spyder. I actually thought Beck spyder production was on hold. Obviously I’m incorrect. Orders for new Vintage spyders are currently on hold. Too much money in building speedies right now.
> Well, that really confuses me. It was my impression that Beck Spyders are all SA.
I bought a rolling package which states that the customer supplies the drivetrain and suspension, so I had assumed IRS would be an option...?
@550 Phil is mostly correct. Vintage did offer an IRS years ago. How many were built, I have no idea. I believe that Beck used to offer a DeDion suspension on their Spyder's for a while, but I don't see that as much of an improvement on swing axle.
I've been on Greg's list for an IRS Spyder for 2 years now, and am looking forward to it!
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DeDion versus swing axle:
The DeDion has some clear advantages, and some disadvantages over SA. It is basically like a live axle except the differential is fixed to the frame with IRS-type half-shafts transmitting power to the wheels. This means that you have lower unspring weight than a live axle (yay!) and constant camber (yay!) ,but you still have both wheels linked, meaning that a bump upsetting one wheel will also affect the other (boo!). SA allows an upset on one wheel to be isolated to that side, but we all know that it can have some weird camber issues (boo!). IRS theoretically has the "yays" of both and the "boos" of neither. Unfortunately it's generally more complex and expensive.
I imagine that Beck's chassis would have to be modified to support IRS, so it's likely that a new Beck - even if you provide the drivetrain - will be configured for SA. Most folks with SA Spyders will tell you that it's not a hindrance to fun.
@Richard S posted:> Well, that really confuses me. It was my impression that Beck Spyders are all SA.
I bought a rolling package which states that the customer supplies the drivetrain and suspension, so I had assumed IRS would be an option...?
It's an option inasmuch as anything is an option in a car you build yourself.
Talk to Carey about it though. He has decades building and driving these cars, and if I'm remembering right he has said that efforts to build various double wishbone/IRS/de dion improvements have not brought real-world improvements over the original swing axle.
This may no longer be true with the advent of the new Beck chassis. So it's worth checking.
Ed. I do believe that the new Beck chassis’s do not include the Spyder.
The new chassis is for Speedsters and coupes. There is no new chassis for Spyders, unless I'm badly mistaken.
@Stan Galat posted:The new chassis is for Speedsters and coupes. There is no new chassis for Spyders, unless I'm badly mistaken.
Nope, you're correct Mr. President.
Well, then this is just a result of my ignorance then and I appreciate the responses. If Beck hasn't been able to make IRS work, then I'm most certainly not going to either. SA it is then.
This is the latest rear Spyder suspension from Gregs VMC shop........Bruce
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Very interesting, Bruce. That is almost the exact same arrangement I came up with on my own. Of course, the main frame is left alone and my version is adding additional tubes(heavier!) to support the lateral arms. The way that is set up will give more negative camber on compression and extension, which is good. Setting it up at almost zero camber(but with a touch negative) should give GREAT handling. Add a 1/2" anti-sway bar(along with 5/8" or 3/4" front) and that thing should STICK.
In order for Beck to offer a non-swing axle rear suspension would require a complete frame re-design. They would have to forgo the torsion tube and ladder-type design completely. I doubt this will happen, unless suddenly front beam/rear torsion assembly supply dries up.
The market simply does not require it. Nor is the juice worth the squeeze for Carey and his company. The front beam/rear torsion/swing axle works well enough for them and their customers. I'm pretty sure he'll concur with me on this.
As to the history of the old IRS Vintage rear: The design came from ACI, which became Vintage when Greg acquired it. I'm not sure how many were made in either ACI or Vintage ownership, but I don't think many. The old design had equal length lateral links, which would not allow extra camber under compression and extension. I'll submit that this is why not many were built. I'll bet it had some handling quirks.
That new design sure looks the part. Pity Greg’s not taking Spyder orders.
@Stan Galat posted:That new design sure looks the part. Pity Greg’s not taking Spyder orders.
Pity. Greg says he thinks he can make the new speedster R&P steering work with the Spyder. Tighter steering and IRS. Sounds like a great handling car. I may ship my Spyder back to LA after I get my speedster for some upgrades.
@550 Phil posted:Pity. Greg says he thinks he can make the new speedster R&P steering work with the Spyder. Tighter steering and IRS. Sounds like a great handling car. I may ship my Spyder back to LA after I get my speedster for some upgrades.
What R&P steering is Greg using in the Speedsters?
I don't think Greg is doing anything to Speedster pans other than the usual refurbish and shorten.
Phil is talking about his Spyder. Which, honestly, he should just leave alone.
@DannyP posted:I don't think Greg is doing anything to Speedster pans other than the usual refurbish and shorten.
Phil is talking about his Spyder. Which, honestly, he should just drive.
Fixed it for you 
Danny....Yah...I remember looking at a Spyder with that suspension. I do recall that the laterals were equal length. The only reason I looked was because the car was up on the rack and I noticed how much camber there was with the wheel hanging down. If I recall correctly, I may have some photos of it, I'll look..........Bruce
Part of the delay in my speedster build is the new rack and pinion steering which I believe is a VW polo unit. Greg is installing it in a speedster that he will test drive for a while. I really think the worm gear steering box installed in the vintage speedsters and spyders is one of the biggest performance short falls. I’m willing to wait a bit longer if I can get a real ring and pinion steering.
Um… I believe you mean rack and pinion.
Lots of pinions. Yes I hope to have a 4 speed tranny with 3.44 ring and pinion. With rack and pinion steering.
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I won't have mine till spring, but I opted for heated seats. I figured it might help to extend the driving season in northern Indiana.
@SJackson posted:I won't have mine till spring, but I opted for heated seats. I figured it might help to extend the driving season in northern Indiana.
Those heated seat will help, but try a heated vest if you want to stay warm. Wear it under nice windbreaker and you will be toasty warm. I have been in really cold weather with an open car and it's very comfortable. Good gloves, Hat and scarf are also a must.
I have electrically heated seats and a modern Webasto gas heater. I love it and it works for me, especially when riding solo with the half-tonneau up. It's good down to about 40F ambient unless it's windy.
The heated vest sounds like an easier and maybe better overall solution. And it's WAY cheaper and less complicated. I know some guys have 12v electric blankets for their better halves, so there's that too.
Last week I spoke to Greg.
I couldn't ascertain exactly which rack he was going to use on the Speedster.
On the Spyder, though, it's the VW Polo(Europe only) unit. You know, the one that has been called a "bodge" or a "hob-job" or whatever diss was used.
He did tell me that he successfully fitted a rack to a Speedster, and that the Polo/Spyder unit is a definite go.
He also told me that the Speedster will be for his personal use, so that he can drive it often and really sort out if the rack is the way forward.
Something needs to change, the quality of the new steering boxes available today is abysmal. The old German ones(if you can find a good one) are the only choice for good steering for us with cars already.
One other option I went with is having Carey smooth the backside of the frunk and clamshell, then finish in body color. Strictly appearance and ease of cleaning is my thinking.