New 356 in Canada at auction. Question.

I brought my first Intermeccanica over the border at Detroit, years ago.

It was registered as a VW, and was 15+ years old, and that's all you need (plus some documentation on the sale, etc.)

I've seen it and it's a nice looking car.  Same color as mine, but doesn't have IRS suspension or an under-the-dash e-brake and is not under factory warranty like mine.  Also appears that there might be some importing back in to the USA issues and possible title issues.

@Troy Sloan posted:

I've seen it and it's a nice looking car.  Same color as mine, but doesn't have IRS suspension or an under-the-dash e-brake and is not under factory warranty like mine.  Also appears that there might be some importing back in to the USA issues and possible title issues.

OP makes no reference to your car, why are you talking the BaT car down and comparing to one you're trying to sell?

Saw this one on BaT today.  

https://www.porschewoodlandhil...e-00000001102884085/

I just got a chuckle at a Porsche dealer selling a replica.   Good on them!

@Bob: IM S6 posted:

I brought my first Intermeccanica over the border at Detroit, years ago.

It was registered as a VW, and was 15+ years old, and that's all you need (plus some documentation on the sale, etc.)

Not sure what's going on in Canada these days about the rules for importation of such vehicles. There's a guy in Winnipeg having speedsters constructed in Mexico and he's selling them on Kijiji. Also, August Motorcars in Kelowna, BC regularly advertises a small selection of Speedsters freshly made in Cali with only a few hundred KM on them. I queried Transport Canada to see if the 15 year rule had changed and in several very long winded replies they kept referring me to the Provincial govt to see if they can be registered locally. However, it is a Federal Law that prohibits importation itself right at the border. Somehow they're coming through.

I will talk to personal experience here -

I bought my VMC earlier this year from Canada and imported it down to my residence in the USA, WA state. My scenario involved going up myself and driving the car across the border through a vehicle crossing. It was not difficult and took about an hour of waiting in line and processing at the border.

You will prepare the following forms to cross the border:

- HS7 (check the box that says older than 25yo and exempts you from everything)

- EPA-3520 (check the box that says older than 21yo and exempts you from everything)

- Bill of sale from dealer/person

- Canadian registration (which is the same as title)

- Local state trip permit

Customs will process the above documentation and give you a stamped CBP7501. You will then take the CBP7501 to your state DOL, along with the bill of sale and the Canadian registration. You will pay the taxes, registration fees and other state fees. They will process a new title for you and give you registration.

If you hire an importer to do it, they would do the same, but would include another document for crossing, which states that they are an importer and they would take it through a commercial crossing. You'll pay a fee.

@cwazy1 posted:

OP makes no reference to your car, why are you talking the BaT car down and comparing to one you're trying to sell?

You haven't been on the SOC long enough to know that the this Topic section was created specifically to discuss auctions!

@Troy Sloan posted:

You haven't been on the SOC long enough to know that the this Topic section was created specifically to discuss auctions!

-

Back to the OP, Canadian cars never fetch the same amount as if they were already in the states. They easily hammer 20% less than a US counterpart. Theres more market in the states and people don't want to deal with import. Its a shame that your auction is going to follow this one. I'd imagine this one to hammer at most in the mid 50's, which would set a poor precedence for your car. I will agree that your car is definitely better spec'd for the educated.

Sure glad I got my Roadster when I did.....

@Troy Sloan posted:

You haven't been on the SOC long enough to know that the this Topic section was created specifically to discuss auctions!

You tell 'im, Troy.  How dare he offer an opinion.

@cwazy1 posted:

I will talk to personal experience here -

I bought my VMC earlier this year from Canada and imported it down to my residence in the USA, WA state. My scenario involved going up myself and driving the car across the border through a vehicle crossing. It was not difficult and took about an hour of waiting in line and processing at the border.

You will prepare the following forms to cross the border:

- HS7 (check the box that says older than 25yo and exempts you from everything)

- EPA-3520 (check the box that says older than 21yo and exempts you from everything)

- Bill of sale from dealer/person

- Canadian registration (which is the same as title)

- Local state trip permit

Customs will process the above documentation and give you a stamped CBP7501. You will then take the CBP7501 to your state DOL, along with the bill of sale and the Canadian registration. You will pay the taxes, registration fees and other state fees. They will process a new title for you and give you registration.

If you hire an importer to do it, they would do the same, but would include another document for crossing, which states that they are an importer and they would take it through a commercial crossing. You'll pay a fee.

Thanks for that info  , I wonder if its the same if you drive / tow something over from Mexico ?

@David Stroud IM Roadster D posted:

Not sure what's going on in Canada these days about the rules for importation of such vehicles. There's a guy in Winnipeg having speedsters constructed in Mexico and he's selling them on Kijiji. Also, August Motorcars in Kelowna, BC regularly advertises a small selection of Speedsters freshly made in Cali with only a few hundred KM on them. I queried Transport Canada to see if the 15 year rule had changed and in several very long winded replies they kept referring me to the Provincial govt to see if they can be registered locally. However, it is a Federal Law that prohibits importation itself right at the border. Somehow they're coming through.

That's why I'm wondering if either something's changed re the importation rules (15 years plus etc) or else someone at August Motorcars knows someone friendly at the DMV

I've got no dog in this hunt, but I can almost bet that the reason the cars can and are moving across the border for resale is that they're built, titled, and registered on VW pans. They're not being imported as 2023 Vintage Motorcars Speedsters, they're being imported as 19XX VW Beetles, and those Beetles are old enough to get around any import restrictions. Customs officers likely just wave them through and wonder how so many very nice old VWs there are in the US.

It's not a gray area in the law on either side of the border, it is illegal to do it this way... but how the law has (not) been enforced for the entire time I've been a part of the hobby has made it a gray area in the same way that driving 9 over on the interstate is gray.

For years, I advocated (HARD) for "doing it right" and getting these cars registered or reregistered as 1957/'58 Replica Speedsters. But I'm really swinging around to the perspective that if nobody cares, a VW title and registration makes selling and moving these cars to other states (and apparently countries) worlds easier. I'd still (personally) try to do it the "right way", but I'm less inclined than ever to follow all the rules if nobody else is going to.

YMMV.

You have it right, Stan.  The only thing customs people are concerned about is the paper work.  If that is done, correctly, then a 19?? VW Beetle titled Speedster gets moved across the border.

I can tell (or repeat, that is) an anecdote about when I brought an IM into Canada.   I had studied all the websites I could find, and that resulted in a less than clear process to be followed.  But, I gathered all the documentation I needed, and had it  forwarded to the U.S Customs office in Detroit by the seller, to meet the three day advance requirement.

On the day we picked the car, we arrived at the customs office with it on the back of a flatbed truck I had hired to go to Detroit to pick it up.  The said car was clearly visible from the customs counter - a nice bright, red, Speedster.  I presented the paper work to a young lady, who proceeded to go through the papers, then decided to look out the window, and discovered said shiny red Speedster did not look like a VW Beetle, as described in the paper work.  I reiterated that it was a 19?? VW Beetle, that it was titled as such, but that it had been modified.  I couldn't think of what else to say.

At that point, said young lady started to raise her voice a little in concern and asked what was going on?  I again stated the car was a 19?? VW, as stated in all the documentation she was clutching more tightly in her hands.   She proceeded to object further that that was not was she was seeing out the customs office window.

At that point, I figured the jig was up, and that, much to my chagrin, I would have a longer stay in Detroit than what was planned.

However, an older customs officer - on hearing the commotion - wandered over, surmised the situation, and told the young lady that he would take over.  She was only too glad to be relieved of her responsibility.  He basically looked at the documentation, looked out the window, and - telling me with 'a wink of his eye and a twist of his head' - said that he was aware of what was going on, that all was legal, and cleared us to leave.

He had the paper work for a 19?? beetle being moved across the border, and he was happy with that.  He had fulfilled his job's requirements, and had the documentation to prove it.

And I was the happy owner of a modified, 19?? shiny, red, VW Beetle on its way to its new home across the border.

... just as I suspected, Bob. Thanks for the confirmation.

@Bob: IM S6 posted:

You have it right, Stan.  The only thing customs people are concerned about is the paper work.  If that is done, correctly, then a 19?? VW Beetle titled Speedster gets moved across the border.

I can tell (or repeat, that is) an anecdote about when I brought an IM into Canada.   I had studied all the websites I could find, and that resulted in a less than clear process to be followed.  But, I gathered all the documentation I needed, and had it  forwarded to the U.S Customs office in Detroit by the seller, to meet the three day advance requirement.

On the day we picked the car, we arrived at the customs office with it on the back of a flatbed truck I had hired to go to Detroit to pick it up.  The said car was clearly visible from the customs counter - a nice bright, red, Speedster.  I presented the paper work to a young lady, who proceeded to go through the papers, then decided to look out the window, and discovered said shiny red Speedster did not look like a VW Beetle, as described in the paper work.  I reiterated that it was a 19?? VW Beetle, that it was titled as such, but that it had been modified.  I couldn't think of what else to say.

At that point, said young lady started to raise her voice a little in concern and asked what was going on?  I again stated the car was a 19?? VW, as stated in all the documentation she was clutching more tightly in her hands.   She proceeded to object further that that was not was she was seeing out the customs office window.

At that point, I figured the jig was up, and that, much to my chagrin, I would have a longer stay in Detroit than what was planned.

However, an older customs officer - on hearing the commotion - wandered over, surmised the situation, and told the young lady that he would take over.  She was only too glad to be relieved of her responsibility.  He basically looked at the documentation, looked out the window, and - telling me with 'a wink of his eye and a twist of his head' - said that he was aware of what was going on, that all was legal, and cleared us to leave.

He had the paper work for a 19?? beetle being moved across the border, and he was happy with that.  He had fulfilled his job's requirements, and had the documentation to prove it.

And I was the happy owner of a modified, 19?? shiny, red, VW Beetle on its way to its new home across the border.

So it's your opinion that anyone can bring a 356 replica across the border as long as the paperwork and title uses the pan as the model? ie 19XX VW Beetle.

My understanding was always that you were taking your chances doing that and an inspection of the actual vehicle might easily turn you back. And the 15 year actual build date would also be what they'd rely on.

Isn't it still "you'll probably be OK" but a potentially expensive crap-shoot?

It worked for me, and I believe it has for others.

That's all I can or will say.

@WNGD posted:

So it's your opinion that anyone can bring a 356 replica across the border as long as the paperwork and title uses the pan as the model? ie 19XX VW Beetle.

My understanding was always that you were taking your chances doing that and an inspection of the actual vehicle might easily turn you back. And the 15 year actual build date would also be what they'd rely on.

Isn't it still "you'll probably be OK" but a potentially expensive crap-shoot?

This is a very grey area and I think it could swing both ways. I specifically asked the CBS personnel on the Canuck side in Prescott, Ontario if they would allow a Speedster body on a VW titled frame to be entered into Canada a few years back and they said definitely not. They clearly said that they know what a 1960's something VW Beetle looks like and one disguised with a Speedster body or MG body would not qualify for import. Period. Funny things do happen from time to time though.

As I mentioned in an earlier post I questioned a Transport Canada person about the procedure to import a Speedster replica and they went on and on about kit cars and my need to check this out with the local ( DMV) Service Ontario Center to be sure. Such it can be while trying to get a straight answer about a special circumstance from a Federal Employee.

Another stunning example here: I bought an old Honda C70 passport to get around the Sun n Fun event earlier this year. Although it had a 70 cc motor, it was titled as a moped. Mopeds in Canada need to be 49cc max and I knew that. I got the "wrong" employee at the Service Ontario office and suggested to him that we have an opportunity here to correct the registration. He dumbed down and called a supervisor in Toronto for an opinion on the situation and then advised me that I need to get a letter ( not even an email would do ) from the manufacturer ( Honda ) to state it was more than 49 cc. A letter from a dealership would not suffice either he said. I explained that anyone could do a google search on the model of the bike and that would prove the engine size. He said he couldn't overrule the opinion of his supervisor. Even my insurance agent had looked up the vin and noted that it was a small motorcycle not a moped and charged me accordingly. I left the office and came back later to get with another service rep who likes my BSA's and is a rider himself. I showed him the insurance, the safety and the previous owners ownership, paid the tax and was out of there in less than five minutes, still owning a "moped".

Dave:

That's been my experience a couple of times at DMV offices - same for lots of others on here.  As for getting a straight answer on importing replicas, good luck.  It took me days to figure out what documentation I needed.  By then, I knew more than the customs people and stood my ground.

Rule is, make sure you find a car person to handle your stuff.

@David Stroud IM Roadster D posted:

This is a very grey area and I think it could swing both ways. I specifically asked the CBS personnel on the Canuck side in Prescott, Ontario if they would allow a Speedster body on a VW titled frame to be entered into Canada a few years back and they said definitely not. They clearly said that they know what a 1960's something VW Beetle looks like and one disguised with a Speedster body or MG body would not qualify for import. Period. Funny things do happen from time to time though.

As I mentioned in an earlier post I questioned a Transport Canada person about the procedure to import a Speedster replica and they went on and on about kit cars and my need to check this out with the local ( DMV) Service Ontario Center to be sure. Such it can be while trying to get a straight answer about a special circumstance from a Federal Employee.

Another stunning example here: I bought an old Honda C70 passport to get around the Sun n Fun event earlier this year. Although it had a 70 cc motor, it was titled as a moped. Mopeds in Canada need to be 49cc max and I knew that. I got the "wrong" employee at the Service Ontario office and suggested to him that we have an opportunity here to correct the registration. He dumbed down and called a supervisor in Toronto for an opinion on the situation and then advised me that I need to get a letter ( not even an email would do ) from the manufacturer ( Honda ) to state it was more than 49 cc. A letter from a dealership would not suffice either he said. I explained that anyone could do a google search on the model of the bike and that would prove the engine size. He said he couldn't overrule the opinion of his supervisor. Even my insurance agent had looked up the vin and noted that it was a small motorcycle not a moped and charged me accordingly. I left the office and came back later to get with another service rep who likes my BSA's and is a rider himself. I showed him the insurance, the safety and the previous owners ownership, paid the tax and was out of there in less than five minutes, still owning a "moped".

So I'm doubling down on my opinion that August motorcars has a friendly or willfully ignorant contact at the DMV. Seems like pretty shaky grounds to build a business on but the more Speedsters making it to Canada the better I suppose.

@WNGD posted:

So I'm doubling down on my opinion that August motorcars has a friendly or willfully ignorant contact at the DMV. Seems like pretty shaky grounds to build a business on but the more Speedsters making it to Canada the better I suppose.

Their website indicates that they can handle brokerage to bring vehicles into Canada too and I'm thinking their brokerage connection is doing the slippery work for them.

I've dealt with brokerage people at the Montreal airport importing and exporting aircraft engines occasionally. They do things that any mortal man might cringe away from and do it while making it look easy and for surprisingly low cost.

@cwazy1 posted:

I will talk to personal experience here -

I bought my VMC earlier this year from Canada and imported it down to my residence in the USA, WA state. My scenario involved going up myself and driving the car across the border through a vehicle crossing. It was not difficult and took about an hour of waiting in line and processing at the border.

You will prepare the following forms to cross the border:

- HS7 (check the box that says older than 25yo and exempts you from everything)

- EPA-3520 (check the box that says older than 21yo and exempts you from everything)

- Bill of sale from dealer/person

- Canadian registration (which is the same as title)

- Local state trip permit

Customs will process the above documentation and give you a stamped CBP7501. You will then take the CBP7501 to your state DOL, along with the bill of sale and the Canadian registration. You will pay the taxes, registration fees and other state fees. They will process a new title for you and give you registration.

If you hire an importer to do it, they would do the same, but would include another document for crossing, which states that they are an importer and they would take it through a commercial crossing. You'll pay a fee.

Border Crossing and importing is being deceived a lot I think.

Auctions in any case are not easy areas.

@imperial posted:

Thanks for that info  , I wonder if its the same if you drive / tow something over from Mexico ?

I believe so. The forms are the same. The duties may change because of regulation. I did not have to pay import duty because the car was technically imported from USA->CA and duties were paid at that time. My import back to the US was considered a return to origin.

@IaM-Ray posted:

Border Crossing and importing is being deceived a lot I think.

Auctions in any case are not easy areas.

I'm not sure how exporting from US and into CA would work, but importing from CA to US is completely dependent on the year of the vehicle. Since these are mostly registered as a 196x VW, they're OK. The customs agent barely looked at the car, I asked him if he wanted to know where the VIN was and he told me no.

Really when you break them down to their component parts they're all pretty much Bugs anyway. Vintage 356s, CMCs, Fiberfab and Duchess and BCW MGTDs, real original 356s, 550 Spyders, both real and fake.... all cobbled together primarily out of VW Bug stuff.

I’m pretty much with Stan on this, but I have to add: one thing I’ve discovered in my 50 years of playing with oddball cars and motorcycles, whenever you don’t get the answer you’re looking for from a bureaucrat, ask another one.

But it would have to be a pretty smoking deal to convince me to gamble on a border crossing. TBH, if it were me I think I’d make the sale contingent on me being able to register it, take the paperwork in to my local DMV and license it, (which you can do here) then put my new plates on it and drive it home like I was coming home from vacation.  

(This is pretty much what I did when I bought my Spyder, although it was coming from IL with a FL title. I had Carey do a VIN inspection which I emailed along with my BoS and a CC number for the sales tax/registration to the UT DMV and they mailed me a UT temp tag which I drove home to NYC on.)

@edsnova posted:

Really when you break them down to their component parts they're all pretty much Bugs anyway. Vintage 356s, CMCs, Fiberfab and Duchess and BCW MGTDs, real original 356s, 550 Spyders, both real and fake.... all cobbled together primarily out of VW Bug stuff.

You know that, I know that, we all know that. CBP, not so much.

This biggest impediment to me importing my Italian motorcycles was sourcing all the DOT marked headlight, tail light, brake disc, and turn signal lenses from the OEM suppliers.

Well, until all the people illegally importing chinese scooters got the DOT/EPA to put the kiabosh on the whole “Small Manufacturer Exemptions,” anyway.