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The answer seems obvious: for maximum longevity you should filter oil being used to lubricate the innards of an IC engine.

But to my knowledge, most if not all the Speedster replicas coming from Hawaiian Gardens, be it Vintage Speedsters or later Vintage Motorcars, were built with no oil filter.  I have a Vintage Motorcars Speedster sans oil filter and was wondering if I should install one.  

Notably my old Triumph motorcycles didn’t have oil filters and engine component wear— bearings, pistons, cam shaft — didn’t seem out of ordinary compared to other MC engines that had oil filters.

And if I should install an oil filter, which filter kit has the least failure points and is the easiest to install?

Jason

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If you do decide to do it, I'd go the whole way and get a Mocal sandwich thermostatic bypass for the oil cooler.

Like most things, there's no "kit" for the good stuff. You'll need the filter base (EMPI is fine), in and out adapters to get to AN fittings, the Mocal sandwich plate, the BSP to AN adpaters for that, some sort of provision for mounting the fan thermostat inline, and 4 hoses.

There's a reason Greg doesn't do it as standard. It can get fairly complex, fairly quickly under the back of the car.

@Stan Galat posted:

There's a reason Greg doesn't do it as standard. It can get fairly complex, fairly quickly under the back of the car.

Indeed, and increased complexity creates additional failure points.

What about something like this?

I like the extra oil capacity this system provides, but I'm not sure it will fit my 2,332cc crankcase. The reduced ground clearance is a concern, too.

Jason



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@JasonC posted:

Indeed, and increased complexity creates additional failure points.

What about something like this?

I like the extra oil capacity this system provides, but I'm not sure it will fit my 2,332cc crankcase. The reduced ground clearance is a concern, too.

Jason



Imo, a waste of time. Not enough oil filter, on the suction side. Do it right, like Stan says above.

@LI-Rick posted:

Imo, a waste of time. Not enough oil filter, on the suction side. Do it right, like Stan says above.

Perhaps not "enough filter", but more than the screen-door filter that I currently have.  Moreover, it doesn't require all the hoses, fittings, and adapters which which create multiple leak points.

And maybe the biggest advantage is that it holds an additional quart of oil. In my mind the stock 2.6 quart oil capacity is not adequate for this air-cooled motor.  So an additional quart of oil should result in multiple benefits.

Jason

I've opined at length about the VW T1 oiling system, which I believe was designed at 3:30 PM on a beautiful fall Friday as the pretty young things of Wolfsburg were setting up for Octoberfest on the square just outside the engineering building at Herr Doktor's plant. You may remember my theory.

The Sainted German Engineers, in their haste to get the weekend started early, sent an intern down to start filling steins and bringing them up while they decided how to best lubricate the engine.

What they arrived at is (by far) the most ridiculous Rube Goldberg excuse for an oiling system since the poured bearings on a Model T. They finished at 5:00 PM sharp, and descended into the street to make merry with bier and fräuleins.

Monday morning, they showed up and saw what they'd done, but because they were Germans, and because the big-boss was a little Austrian corporal with an even shorter fuse -- it was determined to be correct and in no need of further revision.

And so here we are, 90 years later -- still dealing with something one half-rung up from a splash lubrication system, debating whether or not it can and should be made better

... because after all, the Sainted German Engineers designed it this way for some very good reasons...

Last edited by Stan Galat
@Stan Galat posted:


And so here we are, 90 years later -- still dealing with something one half-rung up from a splash lubrication system, debating whether or not it can and should be made better

... because after all, the Sainted German Engineers designed it this way for some very good reasons...

Well, two steps up? The total loss oil system has surely got to be #1 or #2.

There's a reason us two crazies made our oil systems as complicated as we did. Anything less isn't enough for us. But we don't just putt to the Car and Coffee stuff, do we? HOONER!

I'm confused. Is @JasonC and @JPCurtiss the same guy, both named Jason? And what about @JPC, is that yet another guy with the same initials?

I HAD the Thinline sump from CB with the filter in the bottom. Since I already had a full-flow system with Ford 1 quart oil filter, oil thermostat, and cooler, I nixed the screen thing on the suction side. Instead I extended the pickup tube.

It really won't hurt the ground clearance much, if at all. The Thinline is level with the trans cradle, or possibly 1/2" below it.

Then I got crazy and did the dry sump, removing the thinline sump. You simply don't need it with the system I have.

@JPCurtiss posted:

Regarding your confusion about JasonC, JPCurtiss and JPC, it confuses me, too! I don't know how I got so many usernames, but they are all me.

@Theron -- we're a simple lot here, and there's already ample confusion regarding Vintage Speedster, Vintage Motorcars, Vintage Motorcar, Vintage Parts, and Vintage Speed. Is there any chance you could help Jason so we can keep the multiple personalities to a minimum? Perhaps there's some way to merge all the posts from the various user names into one unifying theory? One ring to rule them all, as it were?

There can only be one Jennifer Buck.

Thanks in advance.

.

@JasonC, many of the old Vintage Speedster cars did end up with oil filters installed, although as an option. The external cooler was put on cars with the optional 1915cc engine, and once you were getting that, it was recommended that a real oil filter be added, too.

If you're adding an extended sump, anything deeper than the CB slimline sumps will leave you with pretty thin ground clearance. When I switched to a locally built engine and a full depth sump, I learned that the hard way. Measure how much clearance you have under your front suspension, and you'll want more than that in the back — probably at least 4.5" minimum.

If you're adding a filter, make it one that's full-sized, easy to find replacements for, and easy to change. Neat installations are possible and you'll thank yourself later — probably every 3000 miles or so.

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@Sacto Mitch posted:

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@JasonC, many of the old Vintage Speedster cars did end up with oil filters installed, although as an option. The external cooler was put on cars with the optional 1915cc engine, and once you were getting that, it was recommended that a real oil filter be added, too.

If you're adding an extended sump, anything deeper than the CB slimline sumps will leave you with pretty thin ground clearance. When I switched to a locally built engine and a full depth sump, I learned that the hard way. Measure how much clearance you have under your front suspension, and you'll want more than that in the back — probably at least 4.5" minimum.

If you're adding a filter, make it one that's full-sized, easy to find replacements for, and easy to change. Neat installations are possible and you'll thank yourself later — probably every 3000 miles or so.

.

Thank you for your insight/ comment.

I have a 2,332cc motor, but it was provided by Vintage Motorcars, hence no oil filter.

Jason

So, to review:

You have the auxiliary oil cooler already, so what you want is:

  • Mocal Sandwitch plate with 180F thermostat and adaptor fittings to run AN-10 fittings. Get two sets...
  • Empi universal remote oil filter adaptor plate (I believe these are right or left handed, so figure out where you want the filter first then get the one that works best).
  • AN fittings and oil-safe hose (nylon braided is pretty easy to work with), like this.
  • Find a spot in or near the engine bay to hang that oil filter adaptor plate that you'll be able to reach and work from with a quart of oil in a sippy cup (i.e. the Wix oil filter you're going to use) and run the oil lines from the engine and back to the cooler.
  • Getter done.

There is no need to go to AN-10 unless you're running a front mounted oil cooler.

AN-8 is perfectly adequate if your lines are short and stay within the engine bay area.

I ended up finding an oil filter adapter that goes both ways(I don't remember where I got it), and it comes with plugs for the unused holes. I used this one on my FV and put oil pressure and temp senders in the other two holes.

I've never used a sandwich adapter, I've always used the 190 degree Derale thermostat.

I totally agree on the nylon braid covered hose. It does have steel reinforcement inside the rubber hose, but is much easier to work with. Plus, it won't abrade anything it touches like the metal braid does.

Last edited by DannyP

I live in New England and like to drive in cold, winter temps up until they salt-brine the roads in December.

I have an external oil filter mount similar to Danny's description but I also have the Mocal sandwich plate.  The Mocal diverts your oil flow to bypass the external cooler when the oil temp coming from the engine is below 190F.  I found that this allows my engine to come up to operating temp much faster when the outside temp is below 40F.  Typically, at 30F outside, my engine is up to operating temp in about 8 minutes.  The external oil cooler is only used when oil temp is above 190.  In summer weather it still gets up to temp in 8 minutes or less, but if the engine goes over 190F the cooler kicks in automatically and holds everything to about 200F.  

OK, a lot of typing....   If you only drive in warm weather, you can get by without the Mocal sandwich plate.  If you like to drive in winter temps, install a Mocal.

I wasn't saying not to use a thermostat.  I recommend using one, I've just never used the sandwich style. I'm sure the Mocal is fine.

Even the sainted and drunk German engineers put a kind-of oil thermostat in the dual-relief case, albeit it is pressure operated and not temperature.

It's easier to plumb this style in a Spyder:

Screenshot_20240207_103438_Chrome

And this is the oil filter bracket I was talking about above:

Screenshot_20240207_103624_Chrome

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Last edited by DannyP

Well, much to the dismay of DannyP; Edsnova; Gordan Nichols and probably others; I'm leaning toward a sump-filter.

I measured the resultant clearance and came up with 4.63" after the addition of a one-quart sump filter.  I also attached a small strip of wood at the rear of the engine block that mimics the depth of the sump plate.  And I'm currently driving around on bumpy roads and on driveways that cause my tail pipes to drag. If I make contact with the wood strip it will hinge upward or possibly break.

So far so good...

Jason

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Last edited by JasonC

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Jason, another few thing to consider.

Some quick checking of the CB site shows their thinline sumps all to be 1-7/8" deep, with the filter or not. And they all add about 1-1/2 quart capacity.

A separate filter adds about an additional quart capacity to that (with associated lines) without sacrificing any more ground clearance, lets you use any off-the-shelf filter, and lets you place the filter where it's most convenient to get at (VS mounted it in the driver's side wheel well).

Option two is to skip the external sump altogether and just add a filter in the wheel well, thereby still picking up an extra quart of capacity. Since you've already got external oil lines to the cooler, plumbing this up should be pretty straightforward for someone who works with such lines and AN fittings.

Lazy as I am, I'm thinking ahead to what happens on oil change day. If the filter's inside the sump, you have to fiddle with those twenty-seven little acorn nuts and washers and splash oil all over your wife's garage floor when that little fiddly lid finally does come loose. With the external filter, you just pick up a Wix wherever fine automotive supplies are sold and do the deed wearing your Sunday best — no muss, no fuss.

Just saying.

.

Last edited by Sacto Mitch

To the many Jasons and now just @JasonC

Long ago, in a state not that far away, I wrote a 4-part article on here on converting an engine to full-flow oiling, external filtering and external cooling as well as the placement of an external filter and cooler.  It goes into a lot of the thinking I did to arrive at the right components and then placement of those parts to work well.  My system has exceeded my cooling expectations at all outside temps, is quiet and just plain works, keeping the engine at 200F or below, no matter what.  

The article covers drilling and tapping the engine case, which oil pump I used, selection and placement of the external filter mount, selection and placement of the cooler, hose routing and fittings and so forth.  Some of it might be of interest to you and some of it is beyond the scope of what you want to do.  It might give you a little more insight or it might just put you to sleep, but the first in the series is below for you to scan.  All four parts are found up under "Resources/Knowledge base" at the top of this page.

https://www.speedsterowners.co...ooler-upgrade-part-1

You should look at parts 1, 3 & 4.  Part two is all about drilling and tapping into the engine case and probably doesn't apply to what you want to do.

BTW: your exhaust pipe tips are at the end of an imaginary arm that extends about three feet behind the rear wheel rotation point.  That means that, as the car nose goes up over a speed bump or uphill, the pipe tips will scrape on the pavement at the end of that arm first, while the sump, even a "deep" sump of 2", will still have plenty of clearance.  I get that scraping whenever I visit my son's house.  The transition from street up onto his driveway lifts the car nose just enough to scrape the exhaust pipes but it will never hit the sump.  To avoid scraping the exhaust pipes, I just attack the driveway at an angle coming and going and....  No scrape.

I am not a fan of the filter inside of the sump, simply because it will ALWAYS be a major Pain-in-the-Butt to change your oil and filter, not to mention that it is on the suction side of the pump, not the pressure side.  If it gets dirty it will starve the pump and could cause oil starvation to the bearings and that's not good.

Removing/replacing that big sump plate just begs to leak and leak it will.  If you can find silicone sump gaskets, then use them, but IMO it's still gonna leak sometime.  

Changing the in-sump filter is a 1 hour job.  Changing an external Ford-type filter takes about a minute.

Last edited by Gordon Nichols
@Sacto Mitch posted:

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Lazy as I am, I'm thinking ahead to what happens on oil change day. If the filter's inside the sump, you have to fiddle with those twenty-seven little acorn nuts and washers and splash oil all over your wife's garage floor when that little fiddly lid finally does come loose. With the external filter, you just pick up a Wix wherever fine automotive supplies are sold and do the deed wearing your Sunday best — no muss, no fuss.

Just saying.

.

I'm tracking with you on those fiddly and leaky acorn nuts!

Jason

@WOLFGANG posted:

Those sump filters are quite costly ($26) compared to a spin on filter ($6-10) --- plus not near the filtration and you have to mess with those 8 little nuts that always leak.  A remote filter with an HP1 filter canister will give you another quart of oil.  Being in Texas- you probably don't need the thermostat - but it would speed up engine warmup.

Yes, thanks!

Jason

P.S.:

There are some really nice aluminum sump covers with flush drain plugs and O-rings on them that actually seal.

They are available for both the stock 6 bolt pattern VW case and also for the CB 8 bolt sumps. CB sells them. IMHO, they are very sweet in both look and function.

Removing gaskets from the equation could probably take away 1/2 of the time from the operation.

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Danny, agree. That's what I've got, sort of. It's a CB thinline sump that didn't come with the central drain plug, but that we added a drain plug to later. Works a treat. No need to touch the eight nuts or washers when changing oil.

But the OP is suggesting installing something like this (this is the CB thinline version), with a filter inside the sump:

CBFilterSump



Even if you add a drainplug, there's no way to change the filter without pulling all of the acorn nuts and washers. And the filter looks tiny compared to a regular one, so can't be doing as good a job.

Nother thing: wouldn't the oil pump be pulling against an increasingly restricted inlet as the filter loads up with dirt?

For the 'convenience' of not installing a normal filter, you seem to have added some major headaches down the road.

Am I missing something? Discuss.

.

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