I think Danny's estimate of $1500 is pretty close to what I put into mine, too. The ECU was pretty inexpensive - $200 or so. The other parts add up though - fuel pump, injectors, throttle bodies, manifolds, intake air temperature sensor, O2 sensor and controller, ignition module, crank sensor and mounting hardware, idle air controller wiring, disconnect plugs, etc, etc.
And that's before you add the nitrous oxide injection, turbocharger and water injection. 😃 Looking at you, Stan
So, @Michael Pickett - It is mostly a wash in cost between everything you need for EFI and the cost of a Weber Carb setup.
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/6413.htm
That says a lot! If I were building a new engine today, I would certainly go for EFI and Crank-fired.
The beauty of it all, @Bob: IM S6 , is that you don't have to understand how something is designed to work, just that it does and that it is reliable and you can use it.
I don't remember anymore how my WiFi system works until it screws up (which seems too often, but don't get me going on Verizon). Then I have to wade in there and read way too many web pages and mess around with configuration settings until I get it working "right" again.
At least I can still do that without enlisting the aid of my grandsons. Unless it is configuring a video game console and then what takes me over an hour to do is done by their flashing fingers in way less than five minutes. 😵💫
@Bob: IM S6 posted:I'm glad my car came with EFI, because I can't understand ten percent of what is being said here.
I do know how it works though.
Turn the ignition key, push the start button, and go.
Don't feel left out, Bob.
My understanding of all things electronic is that sensors give inputs and the CPU sends outputs, sometimes to a relay board, sometimes (in this instance) directly. Magic happens inside the box, and like all magic -- it occurs in a smoky environment. There's smoke inside the box which must not escape.
I know I've got to clear my "cache" on my TV or I get booted off Netflix, and that everytime anything updates, thar be dragons thar (printer stops printing, business software won't run, etc.). I know that when "the man" says to ground all my sensors to the sensor ground, which is isolated from the actual ground (lest I set up a dreaded "ground loop") that I better do it, if I know what's good for me.
Electronics work super-reliably if they're wired correctly, but "I pity the foo" who makes one lazy or flaky connection anywhere in the system. At that point, the entire thing just sits there in obstinate silence, like the special woman in your life who thinks you ought to "know-what-you-did-wrong-if-you-really-loved-her". You'd be terribly sad and horribly sorry (of course), but you have no actual idea what you did wrong or you wouldn't have made such a stupid and thoughtless mistake to start with. And so, you retrace every step until you find the infraction that has robbed you of the joy and satisfaction that you know will be yours if you can just get this thing right. When you do stumble into the solution, everything returns to normal and the thing goes about taking care of every detail like it was no big deal.
But it IS a big deal, because it's making thousands of computations and calculations based on a lot of (6, in this instance) different inputs -- kind of like the above referenced woman at a dinner party or when she's dealing with your teenage daughter. And like the love of your life, this amazing and beautiful thing does the exact right thing at the exact right time. You're left wondering how that happened, but you don't know. Some guy somewhere knows -- but you're not that guy, or at least I'm not.
... and so I wire neatly and follow the directions I'm given and try not to let the smoke out of the box.
@Michael Pickett posted:... And that's before you add the nitrous oxide injection, turbocharger and water injection. 😃 Looking at you, Stan
I'm laughing here -- because early last winter, I went down a turbocharging rabbithole. There is so much rich paydirt just waiting to be mined there that I could spend the rest of my life incinerating money and blowing up engines trying to find the secret sauce: the one ring to rule them all.
Also, the $1500 figure is what you told your wife it cost.
@Michael Pickett posted:I think Danny's estimate of $1500 is pretty close to what I put into mine, too. The ECU was pretty inexpensive - $200 or so. The other parts add up though - fuel pump, injectors, throttle bodies, manifolds, intake air temperature sensor, O2 sensor and controller, ignition module, crank sensor and mounting hardware, idle air controller wiring, disconnect plugs, etc, etc.
And that's before you add the nitrous oxide injection, turbocharger and water injection. 😃 Looking at you, Stan
I went back and looked and I spent $1025.( @Stan Galat actual dollars spent there, no nod-wink needed). But, that didn't include throttle bodies and fuel rails, a pump, and regulator, since I had them. Your $1500 estimate seems right though. Surely it could be done for less than $2000, even today.
It took me from ordering parts in August 2020 until April of 2021 to drive it EFI.
@Stan Galat posted:... and so I wire neatly and follow the directions I'm given and try not to let the smoke out of the box.
Wonderful answer, Stan. You captured the nuances of troubleshooting the initial setups. They are wonderfully reliable once you get it right, but there's bound to be some misunderstandings along the way.
In regards to the comment I quoted above, when I was an electronics tech for a research department, we always called the first power-on of a new instrument the "smoke test."
Yup, if it passes the smoke test you are usually G2G.
I loved the drivability and power of the Subaru in the Coupe, but find myself missing the Speedster more. The simplicity of air-cooled with the advantages of crank-fire ignition and EFI look awfully attractive to me.
@Lane Anderson posted:I loved the drivability and power of the Subaru in the Coupe, but find myself missing the Speedster more. The simplicity of air-cooled with the advantages of crank-fire ignition and EFI look awfully attractive to me.
I honestly wondered when you'd come around to that. I suspected you'd miss your Speedster -- as nice as a modern car is, it's not the same is it?
I'm hoping this is the holy grail. The essence of the thing, without the drama.
.... without the drama??!! We'd have to cancel the SOC for lack of interest and participation if you take the drama out. As the guy said above: I'm looking at you, Stan.
Standing by for the fist-fire video. By Easter, he said??? that's next week !! Talk about drama . . .
When I had my 2180 built it was engineered to add a turbo and, later, EFI.
Very long story short: I had the turbo installed and ran Webber 44s for a spell. I just could NOT get around the flat spots. After far too long fiddling I jumped to EFI with the same set up from the DubShop mentioned here. The difference was immediate and the tuning abilities are limitless.
The one thing I also discovered early on was that my Magnaspark was sensitive to heat. The negligible rise in ambient heat from the turbo was causing the ignition to shut down as the forced air piping passed over the top of the distributor. Somewhere in this site I read about an engine shutting off without warning like the key had been turned off; I suspect heat is the culprit.
It didn’t take long to diagnose the ignition issue. So now I’m running a crank fire.
Did I mention the tuning abilities? They increased exponentially when I added crank fire, then again when I added EFI to the turbo mix!
Sanitary installation. That's how it's done. Whether it's carbs or ECU, if you start neat and clean you'll avoid a world of potential hurt later.
The goal is the same whether using analog dizzies and carbs or ECU: A strong spark at the right moment and the right amount of fuel for maximum BMEP. ECU is just better at it, that's not up for arguement.
I really appreciate those that push the envelope and try to make things work better. Familiarity can have a way of leading us to accept less than stellar performance. "Better the devil you know" isn't always the wisdom it's cracked up to be. Sometimes it's a justification for not taking the chance.
That's the cool thing about this stuff. You can indulge your desire to learn, or you can indulge your desire to work with the old ways. I like the mix.
@Stan Galat posted:I honestly wondered when you'd come around to that. I suspected you'd miss your Speedster -- as nice as a modern car is, it's not the same is it?
I'm hoping this is the holy grail. The essence of the thing, without the drama.
Don't get me wrong, I love the new car, but it scratches a different itch.
With all the itches I have I must have a rash or something.
This winter the water temp at the beach has been hovering between 59 - 62 degrees.
Winter Project: Deciding if I should upgrade my 3/2 wetsuit to a 4/3 for the colder water....
@Stan Galat posted:I honestly wondered when you'd come around to that. I suspected you'd miss your Speedster -- as nice as a modern car is, it's not the same is it?
I'm hoping this is the holy grail. The essence of the thing, without the drama.
It truly is. Exactly that, and no more. Yeah you still have valve adjustments and an occasional oil leak.
But, there's no carbs to fiddle with(jets to clog), no springs and weights or modules(no distributor at all). Just turn the key and GO. And go faster.
@El Frazoo posted:.... without the drama??!! We'd have to cancel the SOC for lack of interest and participation if you take the drama out. As the guy said above: I'm looking at you, Stan.
Standing by for the fist-fire video. By Easter, he said??? that's next week !! Talk about drama . . .
And there he is, just like daylight savings time: the naysayer. He hath no faith in the ability of others.
Where have all the tinkerers gone? It's a ghost-town around here.
@MusbJim posted:This winter the water temp at the beach has been hovering between 59 - 62 degrees.
Winter Project: Deciding if I should upgrade my 3/2 wetsuit to a 4/3 for the colder water....
I think Jim, like always, is OK keeping it simple. Carbs still do the job for him😎
Nothing wrong with carbs or keeping it simple. Different folks have different itches. Me, I have to fiddle with things to make them my version of better. That's the whole point of why we shouldn't pay attention to what other people think about our motoring masterpieces/tributes/replicas/kit cars. It doesn't matter - do the things that make you happy!
^ THAT.
You do you. I’ll be over here doing me.
"I think Jim, like always, is OK keeping it simple. Carbs still do the job for him". 😎 - @Marty Grzynkowicz
Keeping it simple has always been my mindset throughout my entire adult working career. I spent 25 years as Director of several acute care and diagnostic Departments in a Trauma Center Hospital in SoCal. My laid back affect had some people think I had an apathetic attitude. To those who told me I seemed apathetic... I replied "I don't care" (see what I did there?). 
Today that same mindset carries over into my everyday life and manifests the "You Do You" mantra. 
My next one is the top on the TT... ( someday I'll get back on the speedster.)
You do you, he does him, I do me, we do us. And we LOVE drama. And daylight savings time.
@DannyP said "Where have all the tinkerers gone? It's a ghost-town around here."
I've been thinking about that too. I'm currently on a tinkering break, but my fingers are starting to get that itch again (another rash?). Not sure when, but I know I'll have to get back into it.
Bonus project. I think I finally got my oil leak fixed. I thought a rubber strainer gasket would do it. Nope.
What finally did it was new strainer nuts. The old ones have a little casting mark across the sealing face. They are almost invisible. Greg sent me some smooth ones a while back. I tried those and it seems like it worked. Crazy that a tiny scored line could leak like that, even with a fresh rubber gasket!
I am on to my next projects already as partially reported elsewhere on the board --upgrading heads and clutch. Pat Downs recommended dual spring heads when I asked him about installing Dellortos and A-1 Sidewinder exhaust. I will be buying a set of AA heads from him.
Also, the stock clutch now slips, so he recommended Kennedy Stage 1. I'll do that now too.
I am running the Sachs HD in my Spyder(and in another Spyder I built the motor on) and they do not slip with near 200 hp, but are light on the foot like stock.
A Kennedy Stage 1 isn't really any heavier than stock for your foot, but I hear Stage 2 certainly is!
I run a Stage 2 and I've got fake knees. Man up, ya wuss. 
Dude, that's harsh! Just kidding, don't care. I LIKE my stock, OE knees!
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I started with a Kennedy Stage 2 on my new build and had some issues, mainly chatter, even when the Bowden tube was set up right.
We swapped in a Stage 1, with a new Kush-Lok disk, and all was good. The chatter was probably fixed by the Kush-Lok, but we'll never know.
Yeah, you can live with the pressure of the Stage 2, but shouldn't need to unless you're a drag racer – or Stan. It's not your friend in traffic, but there's another thing to consider.
It's been rumored our cars can snap clutch cables occasionally, or have those little welded cable guides inside the tunnel break loose. For some, either job will bring joy to the heart or brighten an otherwise cloudy day. Another chance to spend some quality time with the car, out in the garage.
For me, not so much though. I'd rather be out driving. The Stage 1 should make that cable last a lot longer. (And if you haven't already, check out the clutch pedal mod that replaces the old steel cable hook with a roller bearing.)
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Thank you @Sacto Mitch That is helpful. My "real" Porsche has a very heavy clutch. It never really bothered me much. In traffic, it's a bit of an annoyance, but I can deal.
I'm more worried about breaking cables, etc. I had that problem with my old '63 bus. Complete drag. Broken down on the side of the freeway, climbing under, replacing cables. One time it was with the wicked mother in law and the kids in the car. Ugh. Thankfully, she has gone to the other side, so no such risk now, but I don't want to deal with breakdowns that are so easily avoidable.
I talked further to Pat Downs and he thought the Stage 1 would solve the problems. Will the Kennedy Stage 1 "kit" have a Kush-Lok disk, or will whatever Kennedy supplies be good enough?
@Sacto Mitch posted:Yeah, you can live with the pressure of the Stage 2, but shouldn't need to unless you're a drag racer – or Stan.
We long ago established that I'm an ape.
But I'm not JUST an ape, I'm an ape with ideas!, which makes me doubly dangerous and will likely keep me gainfully employed long past my original retirement plan. This is because ideas are where money goes to die.
As it regards a pressure plate -- I'm not running a Stage 2 just to prove I can. I'm as refined and sophisticated as the next busted up, white-trash, hick-town, aging boy-racer wannabe, and I'd enjoy a nice delicate clutch just like Hollywood Mitch (picture below), if for no other reason than I'd like to know how it feels to appear super-suave and debonair as I glide through the switchbacks, rather than driving like I'm raging against the machine with ham-fisted inputs.
Anyway, here's my way of looking at it with my primitive pea-sized brain:
When you get your engine built (if it's a quality build) you also get it balanced. The pressure plate is a part of the rotating assembly that gets balanced along with the rest of the bottom end.
LI-Rick and I had this discussion a month or so ago-- it's apparently not a matter of balancing a pressure plate in isolation, the pressure plate is balanced in conjunction with all the rest. The net effect is that if you eat yours, or burn it, or warp it, or decide it's too much or too little -- you're just SOL unless you want to pull the entire engine apart and get a NEW pressure plate balanced along with the rest of it.
That's nuts and nobody does it. Your engine is only REALLY balanced the one time -- when it's built, with the pressure plate you hope is perfect for the application.
... so choose wisely.
My life has been lived mostly as a series of over-reactions to mistakes, shortcomings, or poor decisions I've made in the past. The reason I went with a Stage 2 is that I've had Stage 1s slip, and so (rightly or not) the Kennedy Stage 1 was filed in the "poor decision" part of my brain I try to avoid like it's on fire.
And so, in the spirit of "more is more", I run more pressure plate than I'm supposed to need. Personally, I'd rather not think, "yeah, that'll probably be enough" and then find out it wasn't and then be SOL until the next motor.
That's my reason, and a man's got to have his reasons. You do you. I'll be over here with my belt and suspenders and my Stage 2 clutch. Fixing a broken clutch cable is a lot easier than rebalancing an engine.
Jake Raby used to suggest having 2 pressure plates balanced when doing the original balance job, just in case. Just saying.
@LI-Rick posted:Jake Raby used to suggest having 2 pressure plates balanced when doing the original balance job, just in case. Just saying.
Excellent advice in hindsight (being 20/20 as it is).
Next motor, I'll balance a Sachs, a Stage 1, a Stage 2, and a Ron Lummus multi-disc set-up.
That'll do it.
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@Teammccalla , you can see that others here know a lot more about clutches than I do. (We Hollywood types care mostly about shifting effortlessly without appearing to break a sweat.) So, I don't know what Kennedy supplies in kits (or if there are 'kits' per se). I do know their pressure plates were sort of industry standard for many years and were used with a wide variety of disks with success.
Lately, though, folklore has it they're 'not the same anymore' (but, what is?), so maybe what to choose is a good discussion point.
I do know that I found a way to quickly destroy the first Stage 1 we installed. I read all the folklore about adjusting pedal freeplay posted here and on most VW sites, climbed under, and started spinning the big adjuster thumbscrew until I had just exactly one half inch of freeplay at the end of the pedal. I drove happily like that for about a month until one day I declutched and found myself with only about half a clutch still working.
It turns out that if you install a standard VW pedal assembly in some of our cars, you can keep pressing the pedal at the bottom of the stroke until it stretches the pressure plate springs way past the point that God or Kennedy ever intended.
On my next Stage 1, we may have installed a plain old Kennedy or a Sachs disk, I can't remember. Still no chatter. I ended up putting a physical stop under the pedal to limit travel and have been clutching and declutching ever since without incident.
Well, until today, when I got called out for being a wuss with a Stage 1.
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I think somebody is cornfused
I am the one with the so-called wimpy leg.
The Sachs 200 HD is pretty light on the foot, but she holds tight. The key seems to be 5/8" master/7/8" slave. And yes, I bent the fingers on my Kennedy due to over-extension, which is the why of the Sachs. And no, I didn't re-balance the crank/flywheel/pressure plate. I just bolted the new clutch on. I didn't notice any difference in power, smoothness, or vibration. If I remove it, I'll mark it so it can go back on the same way. From what I've read, Sachs does a better job these days at making things balanced than Kennedy.
Put me in the wimpy leg class as well. I found that a 100mm clutch release arm gave me less of a pain in traffic, better breath, and I was the belle of the debutante ball. You may have to search to find one:
Hey -- if y'all want to run your cute little pressure plates, who am I to cast stones?
Here on the SOC, we're open-minded and accepting of a multiplicity of orientations and identifications, including "wuss". If you want to get in touch with your feminine side, then you absolutely should and I shouldn't stand in your way. It's a big tent.
I was just having a personal reaction to the "Stage 2 is just so heavy" complaint. Since I'm a member of the patriarchy with all the toxic masculinity that entails, I didn't fully appreciate the difficulty some folks may have leg-pressing the 35 lbs or so it takes to push a Stage 2 all by oneself!
Especially with all the traffic we encounter, since we're all on a daily commute in heavy traffic in our clown-cars. Week in and week out, we grind through stop-and-go traffic -- because this is what we bought these cars to do. Regardless, it may be just too much for you, and I should have been more sensitive to that. I don't know how hard it is for you, and I won't judge.
You should definitely do you.
OK, @Stan Galat. I’ll bite. What is the actual benefit of a heavier pressure plate than is required? I guess on a borderline application, you are assured of good performance.
I need to make a decision on clutch. Opinions requested…
I don’t have a guess at HP or torque. Guesses?
I will have:
A-1 sidewinder
Dellorto 45 DLRAs
”Mild” VMC cam
94mm cylinders And Mahle Motorsports 94mm piston kit
1.25 Rocker arm kit with swivel ball adjusting screws
Custom Pat Downs heads. AA 500 series cylinder heads with 40x35.5 stainless valves, D port intake, dual valve springs, chromoly retainers, 94mm bore
IDF port matched manifolds to cylinder heads done by Pat
Chromoly .035 wall push rods, racing push rod tubes, push rod tube seal kit
So guesses on HP and clurch recommendation?
I've had my last response all typed out for several days, wondering if it was going to be understood as a joke or not, since I consider Mike, Danny, and Mitch (the prime advocates for the Stage 1) to be my friends. Judging from the response, it was a swing and a miss. It was funny to me but not to anybody else. Ah well, sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you. I amuse myself, and that's got to be enough.
Regarding the pressure plate, I think it depends on the clutch disc. There are grabby discs that don't need as much pressure plate to hold and spongy discs that need more. The downside to the grabby discs is that they can chatter and tear up the flywheel and or pressure plate surface. I ran a "Copperhead" disc for a few years, with conventional clutch material on the flywheel side and copper pucks on the pressure plate side. It was supposed to provide the best of both worlds with a nice, light clutch pedal, but it never lived up to the billing.
I've always had more luck with a heavier PP and a conventional clutch than with a light PP and a fancy disc. I'd love nothing more than for that to work, but I've tried several flavors and brands and never felt the love. I've also never felt like a Stage 2 was all that heavy, but I live in a small town with a dozen stoplights in total.
Everybody has an opinion. I guarantee Pat has one too. I'd follow his recommendation. I'm learning the limits of my "ideas" of late.
There's no way I could venture a guess on the torque or HP on your revised engine. I don't know the cam specs and I don't know what the heads flow.
No, actually. It made me chuckle. I would go into why I am not doing the bottom end but not on the board.
I definitely do me, as you know! Thank you again for your help. Much appreciated.
@Stan Galat posted:.I've always had more luck with a heavier PP and a conventional clutch than with a light PP and a fancy disc.
I just figured your perspective was tinged by early, intense, exposure to muscle car era Firebirds!
