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CMC Strikes again!!!

Gordon NicholsGordon NicholsMassachusetts 1993 CMC Supporting Member
When I built my CMC on a 1969 IRS donor pan, I decided against replacing all of those spiffy, rubber bushings holding the rear suspension together. True, I had absolutely no idea how many miles were on the donor car and, also true, I had replaced absolutely everything else on the car that could possibly wear out.

But the rear suspension felt tight (at least to me) and since all of the repair manuals tell you to "remove the rear control arms and take them to a VW Service Center for replacement of the pivot bushings" and inferred that the VW place had some sort of magical, super-secret tool to replace them with, so I guess that scared me off. After all, I had never replaced any VW control arm bushings, and had only once replaced any spring plate bushings - they didn't seem to wear out...

But that was then and this is now, right? I decided at long last that I would replace all those nasty, worn out, rubber bushings with nice, new, feel-good ones. The trouble is, it's getting almost impossible to find German OEM replacements for them, and there seems to be a raging debate on the various forums about rubber versus Urethane for these.

After reading a LOT about this, I decided to stick with rubber bushings for the spring plates (for a less harsh ride) and Urethane for the control arms since I simply couldn't find any rubber replacements and also the Massachusetts Guru of all things early VW (no, not TC....another Guru) told me that Urethane on the control arms is the only way to go. Good enough for me....

So, here I am... Got the control arms out and dropped off at a local auto machine shop that I trust to press out the pivot bushings (it wasn't a big deal after all, just another suspension bushing) and, while I'm waiting overnight for them to be done I decide to replace the spring plate bushings.

I got the real, OEM Rubber ones for there - one for each side of the spring plate. Not a big deal, really, just remove the spring plate/torsion bar cover, pop the plate off the stop to let it hang, slide it off the torsion bar and...

........HEY!.........

............WAIT A MINUTE!!.........

It can't come all the way off the torsion bar! The car body is in the way with no way to get around it!

THAT is why real, steel Speedsters, Intermeccanicas and Becks (maybe VS, too - I never checked) have those little round covers in the body just in front of the rear wheels! So you can get the friggin' Torsion bar covers off!!

So here I am.......brandy-new spring plate bushings and I can't get the stupiid cover off to get to replace the inner ones.

Once more, if I had those CMC guys here I'd give them a swift kick in the a$$. Better yet, maybe a little more forward......

So, for you more technically oriented than me, the inner bushing fits into a cup at the end of the torsion tube and rubs against a boss on the inside of the spring plate. It also has four tabs molded in which all fit into recesses in the circumference of that cup so that the bushing doesn't move around as the bar turns, it's just there to keep the torsion bar centered and absorb road vibration.

I'm really tempted to whip out my wicked sharp blade and make a cut on one side to allow me to open it up (like a horse shoe), slip it around the torsion bar and then press it into place in the cup, but I'm wondering if any of you have any good ideas that might help. One thing I thought of is that it may make a difference exactly where that cut is made, although I'm not sure of this.

I'm pretty open to new thoughts here, but this may be one of those problems to just walk away from for a day or two, have an epiphany and then try again.

Any ideas, folks??

Of course, while I'm pondering this, I can watch more of the Olympics, right? GO US WOMEN'S SOCCER!!!!!

Thanks in advance......Gordon
The Pondering Speedstah Guy
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Gordon NicholsGordon NicholsMassachusetts 1993 CMC Supporting Member
When I built my CMC on a 1969 IRS donor pan, I decided against replacing all of those spiffy, rubber bushings holding the rear suspension together. True, I had absolutely no idea how many miles were on the donor car and, also true, I had replaced absolutely everything else on the car that could possibly wear out.

But the rear suspension felt tight (at least to me) and since all of the repair manuals tell you to "remove the rear control arms and take them to a VW Service Center for replacement of the pivot bushings" and inferred that the VW place had some sort of magical, super-secret tool to replace them with, so I guess that scared me off. After all, I had never replaced any VW control arm bushings, and had only once replaced any spring plate bushings - they didn't seem to wear out...

But that was then and this is now, right? I decided at long last that I would replace all those nasty, worn out, rubber bushings with nice, new, feel-good ones. The trouble is, it's getting almost impossible to find German OEM replacements for them, and there seems to be a raging debate on the various forums about rubber versus Urethane for these.

After reading a LOT about this, I decided to stick with rubber bushings for the spring plates (for a less harsh ride) and Urethane for the control arms since I simply couldn't find any rubber replacements and also the Massachusetts Guru of all things early VW (no, not TC....another Guru) told me that Urethane on the control arms is the only way to go. Good enough for me....

So, here I am... Got the control arms out and dropped off at a local auto machine shop that I trust to press out the pivot bushings (it wasn't a big deal after all, just another suspension bushing) and, while I'm waiting overnight for them to be done I decide to replace the spring plate bushings.

I got the real, OEM Rubber ones for there - one for each side of the spring plate. Not a big deal, really, just remove the spring plate/torsion bar cover, pop the plate off the stop to let it hang, slide it off the torsion bar and...

........HEY!.........

............WAIT A MINUTE!!.........

It can't come all the way off the torsion bar! The car body is in the way with no way to get around it!

THAT is why real, steel Speedsters, Intermeccanicas and Becks (maybe VS, too - I never checked) have those little round covers in the body just in front of the rear wheels! So you can get the friggin' Torsion bar covers off!!

So here I am.......brandy-new spring plate bushings and I can't get the stupiid cover off to get to replace the inner ones.

Once more, if I had those CMC guys here I'd give them a swift kick in the a$$. Better yet, maybe a little more forward......

So, for you more technically oriented than me, the inner bushing fits into a cup at the end of the torsion tube and rubs against a boss on the inside of the spring plate. It also has four tabs molded in which all fit into recesses in the circumference of that cup so that the bushing doesn't move around as the bar turns, it's just there to keep the torsion bar centered and absorb road vibration.

I'm really tempted to whip out my wicked sharp blade and make a cut on one side to allow me to open it up (like a horse shoe), slip it around the torsion bar and then press it into place in the cup, but I'm wondering if any of you have any good ideas that might help. One thing I thought of is that it may make a difference exactly where that cut is made, although I'm not sure of this.

I'm pretty open to new thoughts here, but this may be one of those problems to just walk away from for a day or two, have an epiphany and then try again.

Any ideas, folks??

Of course, while I'm pondering this, I can watch more of the Olympics, right? GO US WOMEN'S SOCCER!!!!!

Thanks in advance......Gordon
The Pondering Speedstah Guy
FM Former Member
Gordon,
If I understand correctly, you need to remove the spring plates from the torsion bar but cannot due to the bodywork. FWIW: My Beck Speedster has the torsion bar access holes with covers, BUT my TR Spyder did not and the torsion bar tube was full of media from blasting at some early point in its manufacture. I needed to remove the torsion bar to give the tube a thorough cleaning.
I bought a hole saw set and used one that was of sufficient size to allow the torsion bar to pass through the body and properly aligned with the torsion bar. I very carefully cut the pieces out and saved both "circles" left in the hole saw.
After I drove out/pulled the torsion bar and cleaned out the tube and re-installed the bar, I filled-in the holes in the center of the circles. Then I glassed-in some fiberglass cloth to cover the hole in the body from the inside of the body. Once that set, I bonded the circular pieces to the fiberglass cloth making sure each was centered properly.
While it is no longer functional since I chose to glass it in, I have authentic-looking torsion bar "plugs" on the Spyder. An alternative is to countersink and bond a bolt into the center hole left from the pilot bit, fill in the top of the bolt with body putty and place a metal bar larger than the ID of the hole on each bolt. Bond the 'glass cloth to the inside of the holes, but, then use a smaller size hole saw to open it up after the glass has set. Put the bolt/circle piece into place and add the metal bar on the inside with a washer and nut to hole each in place. The circle piece is is now removable, like originals.
Obviously, unless you are very careful, you may have to touch up the paint on both sides. I'm not sure this addresses your problem, but I hope it helps. YMMV.

FM Former Member
James has a point Gord. We went through the same predicament on a kit car owned by a friend (an old '69 Avenger) in which we replaced all those parts. The owner ended up cutting the body up like James says. It worked perfectly; obviously it helped that the owner of the car has a pro body man working for him. Jjr hasn't changed his because of the same reason. I guess the removable plugs would be a worthwhile addition to make CMC's serviceable.
Gordon NicholsGordon NicholsMassachusetts 1993 CMC Supporting Member
Thanks for the idea (I had thought of that immediately) but nope, cutting into Pearl's terrific painted body is not an option (unless I installed some cool louvers there like Merklin did on "Candy Girl").

Keep the ideas coming. I'm still leaning toward cutting one side of the rubber bushing, but my Engineer nephew told me to find some compatible rubber-type super glue....
FM Former Member
Cut the hole!


Get a pair of those Iron Cross billet covers that the Outlaws are runnin'


Call it done Dude.






Oh, what's the guys name who is up on old VW's, I could use some help with my rear suspension and transaxle. I want to vent the sucker and install a fluid pump and cooler but I'm not sure where the best spot is to drill and tap for the lines.

Lemme know if you can.
MusbJimMusbJim'14 VS SoCal Supporting Member
Gordon -

To keep your sanity, use the hole-saw as suggested. Then re-attach the circular piece to your body (but also make it removable) by whatever usual genius method you always seem to utilize on your cars. As for the paint-body work, apply some of those (vinyl) stone-guards you see on the rear fender flares of the early Porsche turbos ('86-88) over the new access/cover. I'm not sure if those stone-guards are available in colors other than black.

http://vista.pca.org/stl/turbo.htm

This way, if needed, you'll have future access to the torsion bars/cover plates without having to cut or repaint.
FM Former Member
Jim,

THANKS for suggesting using the drain and fill plugs and holes ! !

That is perfection ! !

I can probably locate some brass plugs with the correct outer threads which will making drilling and tapping for the ANs easier. Maybe even try an external gear oil filler/canister as well. Something along the lines of what the semi-automatic Beetles used since I have one down stairs with the banjo fittings and such still attached. Not to overfill the trans, but more to be sure of a steady supply source. I have a while to sort this out, but now that I have your idea for the inlet/outlet and no need to open the trans, things ought to work out MUCH faster.

Of course, all of this might not be necessary, it's just that the trans gets terribly hot to the touch after a two/three hour trip. Heat transfer from the engine, sure, but . . .
Gordon NicholsGordon NicholsMassachusetts 1993 CMC Supporting Member
Nope, nope nope......not cutting into the body.

Not now, not ever, period. I don't have to:

Somewhere there's a brilliant chemist who's come up with a formula for a rubber-type, super-bonding Smackumpucky or something-or-other that'll hold these rubber donuts together tighter than a Bull's a$$ in fly-time, and I'm gonna find it.

It's probably waiting on the adhesives wall at Home Depot right now, just waiting for me ("Gordon! Here I am!!").

Besides, consider this: The inner bushing sits almost fully inside of a cup, custom-made especially to hold it in place. Once it's put in there, there are four molded-in tabs to keep it from rotating, and a moosey spring plate to keep it from going any where else AND the spring plate rotational boss presses outward on it, thereby holding it fast in place. PLUS, the entire bushing and spring plate boss is "lubricated" with talcum powder to make make them slide against each other easily, without squeeking. The glue would be just to give me a slight increase in peace of mind.

Cut a hole in Pearl's body, indeed.......

I'm sticking with the glue (pun intended....)
tmpusfugittmpusfugit
TC,

here is what I have collected together for the transmission cooler so far. The tranny case plugs are metric (who woulda' thought?) but they drill pretty easy.

The little pump cost a fortune, like $300, but it is gear drive and flows about 1.5 gal per minute which will push the full contents about 3 times a minute. Like your, my transmission gets hot at high speed for long periods of time, and it has since new....and it was well built and has survived nealy 50k kilometers... when it gets hot it no longer shifts smoothly
Gordon NicholsGordon NicholsMassachusetts 1993 CMC Supporting Member
Got the glue.

Cut off the old donut.

Cut (gulp!) the new donut and slipped it on.

Glued the cut ends together and pressed them for 30 seconds.

You would never know it had been done.

Wow! I felt like TC, for a minute there....and then I regained my senses, baby powdered the hell out of the bushing and the mating bosses and put everything back together.

Ricardo! Tell Joe jr. it's a piece of cake!

On to the next side!! Then to the rebuilt diagonal arms!!

BTW: For those of you thinking of messing with the diagonal (control) arms on an IRS rear, do yourself a BIG favor: Take a photo and/or remember where and how many of those big, moosey thrust washers are used on each arm. While the arms may all be the same (but they're left and right versions), the mounts are very slightly different on every car AND different between sides on the same car. That means that those big washers are used not only for rotational needs, but also to help adjust alignment of the rear end wheels. Put them back exactly the same as they came out or you'll make it more difficult to do a four-wheel alignment after you're done (and you WILL need that alignment, because the new bushings will change the geometry slightly!). Mine were assembled from the factory, but they were different on each side.
FM Former Member
You DO realize just how bad this make us look in Kevin's eyes don't you ? ! ? ! ? ! ?

He offers up a wealth of superb information on near cutting edge suspension improvements and alterations to the VW platform. Propriatery components, years of experience, custom fabrication, race proven calculations. The full tilt.

I make him him feel bad for doing it, for which I'm SO VERY sorry ! ! ! I'm an admitted idiot and need a damned muzzle most of the time.

But here you are, after posting in the "castor shim" thread about all of your racing around and track time and all, talking about . . .

Cutting seals because of the body work being in the way ! ? ! ? ! ?

Racing around at speed all afternoon on nearly forty year old bushings !

Choosing tires based on what fits under the fenders !

Basing tire compound on what's being discounted this week at Sears !

Selecting wheel off-set from a list of TWO currently being offered by CIP1 !

Running around in pan based kits without any shock tower gussets or triangulation of the rear frame horns !

Deciding on rear sway bars for a car that's never had the diagonal arm bushings and bolts checked in four decades !

The list goes on and on and so does my embarrassment. And this isn't you, this is US. We SO need Kevin's help. I sure hope that he comes back. I'll even admit to being a girly-man if he does . . .

Gordon NicholsGordon NicholsMassachusetts 1993 CMC Supporting Member
I just don't know any better...

I grew up in the days when we didn't have a lot of money, had old beaters to run around in (pretty much VW sedans with 2,110's, tired 356's and, later on, a '65 Ford Bronco with the 160CI six) and had to make do with what we had. We (my older brother and I) were into Go-Kart racing when it was the rage in the early '60's and did all of our own mods on the Karts; engine, frame, suspension, wheels..... you used whatever you could find that was cheap or that you could make from scratch and then only the stuff that made you win either by being faster or more reliable. Mostly common sense and a little inginuity and a WHOLE LOT of faith in what you were riding around in.

Later on in life I rubbed elbows with some truly great mechanical engineers who knew far more than I ever did about auto suspension geometry and used that knowlege in their jobs (which, often, weren't in the auto business) while I was out there building Street Rods and messing with Snow Mobiles and stuff.

Just a natural tinkerer, I guess.

Hey, TC! Ever wonder what that little, unused bolt hole is for in the shock tower casting just forward of the rear upper shock mount?? According to the official VW Service Manual, that hole is for a "Special VW tool" used to safely pull the spring plates up off of the lower stop so they can be safely pried away from the stops while being slowly lowered past them.

You learn something new every day.....
FM Former Member
"Special VW tool"

NO WAY ! ! !

Is that the weird thingie that almost looks like a standard VW jack 'cept it's all upside down and turned around? Or is this something even neater?

And they actually placed a hole in each and every car. just as an aid for the factory mechanics. Pretty cool ! ! !
Gordon NicholsGordon NicholsMassachusetts 1993 CMC Supporting Member
YES!

It looks like a car jack with an an extra handle on it. One handle makes it pull together, and another one makes it push apart, either one providing very precise movement, I'm sure, as they are both working on a solid rod with no teeth.

Designers (ALL designers) often do thoughtful things. Remember the grill emblem on '63 Fords that, when pulled, released the hood?

What the heck...at least the VW chassis designers were thinking ahead and making life easier/safer for the service techs. Pretty cool in my book.
Gordon NicholsGordon NicholsMassachusetts 1993 CMC Supporting Member
Just as a final update, I finished doing the rear bushings a few days ago but have been kinda busy running around doing other stuff lately (one of which was a few days on Block Island for R&R).

I ended up cutting one side of the old inner bushings to get them off over the torsion bar, then cut the new bushings (Boy! Is THAT ever a leap of faith!!) so they then looked like a big "C", slipped them around the torsion bar, then took Wolfgang's advice and used Super Glue on them to glue 'em back together. Held them in place for 15 seconds and then put them into the torsion tube cup to hold them fast while they cured.

Bottom line: They look and work like they were never cut!! I popped them back out the next morning, powdered them up with talcum powder (made 'em smell nice, too!) re-assembled everything and we're good to go. I had marked the positions of the spring plates versus the plate-stop casting when I got them lowered, so the ride height didn't seem to change post-bushing-install.

Life is good...

Now, if I only had time to take it for a ride and try it out!!

Maybe this weekend......

gn
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