My block has 2689 stamped on it.

.

Just noticed this thread (maybe I smelled the smoke?)

Anyway, a bit more on @Popee 's original question about his motor.

I got my car new from Kirk in 2013, about a year before Popee's build. By then, VS was offering just two 'standard' engines — a stock 1600 and an (almost stock) 1915 'upgrade', which was pretty much a 1600 with larger bore cylinders bolted on (but stock heads, crank, cam, valves, exhaust, EMPI IDF-clone carbs, etc.).

By 2013, the red curly wire on the alternator was gone as was the practice of writing the displacement on the fan shroud.

Roland Rascon was no longer supplying Kirk's 'stock' engines, but would build something custom if the customer requested it. There was a lot of talk (and more than a little evidence) that at that point, the stock engines were Mexicrates.

There are quite a few clues that Popee's engine wasn't one of Kirk's stock engines. Stuff like bolt-on valve covers, extended sump, ceramic headers, electric fuel pump, fan belt tensioner, etc. So that engine was either a custom build supplied by Roland or some other engine builder to Kirk or was installed at a later date by one of the owners. I'd guess the latter, having myself puttered along in the slow lane on the freeway with one of those Mexicrates for a year before giving up.

.

@Sacto Mitch posted:

.

Just noticed this thread (maybe I smelled the smoke?)

Anyway, a bit more on @Popee 's original question about his motor.

I got my car new from Kirk in 2013, about a year before Popee's build. By then, VS was offering just two 'standard' engines — a stock 1600 and an (almost stock) 1915 'upgrade', which was pretty much a 1600 with larger bore cylinders bolted on (but stock heads, crank, cam, valves, exhaust, EMPI IDF-clone carbs, etc.).

By 2013, the red curly wire on the alternator was gone as was the practice of writing the displacement on the fan shroud.

Roland Rascon was no longer supplying Kirk's 'stock' engines, but would build something custom if the customer requested it. There was a lot of talk (and more than a little evidence) that at that point, the stock engines were Mexicrates.

There are quite a few clues that Popee's engine wasn't one of Kirk's stock engines. Stuff like bolt-on valve covers, extended sump, ceramic headers, etc. So that engine was either a custom build supplied by Roland or some other engine builder to Kirk or was installed at a later date by one of the owners. I'd guess the latter, having myself puttered along in the slow lane on the freeway with one of those Mexicrates for a year before giving up.

.

Right on; mine is a 2004 build and we believe it's a Mexican VW OEM longblock that was punched out for the 94's; including stock cam. It makes a lot of economic sense for an operation to go that way. You are minimizing the purchase of a lot of parts. You basically take them apart do the bore machining, put everything right back together and slap all the externals, tinwork and accessories and you can crank them out easier than if each were a custom build. Block is VW Brazil and heads were VW Mexico ( I swapped them later for CB 044s).

Well, one thing is, to the best of my knowledge: Speedster replicas do not employ computer chips.  So that does not impact.

But as to the broader market, and Stan's observation about ICEs getting the short shrift, adn "enthusiasts" being more and more ignored as a buying bloc, allow me to observe my own experience.  Needed a new DD in place of 15 yo Mazda 6, V6 5 spd.  Looking for the sporty sedan not a BMW.   Discovered that manual transmissions were getting scarce but was delighted to see the folks at Honda were still carrying the flag.  My 6 spd 2018 Accord 2.0 T is the best such car ever. I'm looking at 40,000 mi to date. The other day at the Honda dealership, where the service tech noticed: "Nice 6spd, don't see too many of those." Followed up by the declaration that the smart fellows at Honda have stumbled and dropped the aforementioned flag -- no more manual trans in the Accord.  So, the market is indeed shrinking.

The car has Dual Webber 44’s and has a lot of gitty up and go. On the fwy today cruising at 85 and very smooth. Love that freeway flyer tranny. Car runs great I just want to get rid of the noise in the back. It’s driveling me

N U T S!!!

@Sacto Mitch posted:

.

I got my car new from Kirk in 2013, about a year before Popee's build. By then, VS was offering just two 'standard' engines — a stock 1600 and an (almost stock) 1915 'upgrade', which was pretty much a 1600 with larger bore cylinders bolted on (but stock heads, crank, cam, valves, exhaust, EMPI IDF-clone carbs, etc.)..

.

Mitch.

I'm no engine builder so this could be wrong, but I've always thought that a 1915cc engine required a different crank in addition to larger cylinders and pistons.

@Troy Sloan posted:

Mitch.

I'm no engine builder so this could be wrong, but I've always thought that a 1915cc engine required a different crank in addition to larger cylinders and pistons.

You are wrong.

.

Troy, I'm no engine dude, either, and it's been a while since I ran through the numbers but I grabbed this chart off the webs, which I think is on point. It shows commonly available P&C sets and cranks for our engines:

Stock 1600 uses a 69 crank and 85.5 cylinders. Bolt on the largest commonly available jugs (94) and presto, 1914cc. No internal clearancing necessary, and you can use all stock heads, valves, etc, but with very little increase in performance. (The first VW shop I took my car to pointed this out to me, saying, "You know, that's not a real  hi-po motor, right?")

I think that's how all the cheap '1915' Mexicrates were configured at the time.

By contrast, the most common 2110 upgrade uses larger cylinders, but also jumps up to the 82 stroke crank, which does require internal clearancing (and bigger valves, larger exhaust, hotter cam, etc to be done right).

Of course, there are many ways to skin a cat, and you can build stroker motors with more torque and grunt that also come in around 1900cc, but the torque and grunt are always paid for in pricier components which is why the 2110 seems such a nice balance between cost and output.

I assume the folks who are better schooled than I in such matters will pipe up here.

.

Mitch, your graph or chart or whatever visual aid did not display. Please add it as an attachment, then display the attachment in the text.

Anytime you increase the bore size, you need to open up the holes in the case and heads to fit the larger cylinders, so it's not like there's "no clearancing". The engine still has to be taken apart and put back together, which was why the mexicrate 1915s were always such a mystery to me.

.

Funny, I did add as attachment like I always do, but edited and tried again. Now maybe?

@Sacto Mitch posted:

.

Funny, I did add as attachment like I always do, but edited and tried again. Now maybe?

Shows for me.

We're good now, Mitch.

@Stan Galat posted:

Mitch, your graph or chart or whatever visual aid did not display. Please add it as an attachment, then display the attachment in the text.

Anytime you increase the bore size, you need to open up the holes in the case and heads to fit the larger cylinders, so it's not like there's "no clearancing". The engine still has to be taken apart and put back together, which was why the mexicrate 1915s were always such a mystery to me.

Now it makes more sense to me why my mechanic always told me that you can't just add the bigger pistons and cylinders without cracking the case.  I thought it was because you needed to put in a different crank, but it's because the case requires machining.   Thank you.

Even though the 1915cc requires the case to be machined, it also requires the heads to be flycut to accept the bigger cylinders and pistons.

But that is the only clearancing/machining required.

The 2110(and most other strokers) requires the above mentioned case and head machining, but because of the longer stroke, more internal case grinding, and also camshaft grinding to clear the crank and rods. It's a really good idea to install time-certs or case savers for the studs, no matter what you build. There are other things, but that's more than what we're talking about here.

This is all for 78mm stroke and up. You can often get a 76mm crank in without doing any clearancing. Vw's own 2109cc(1986-1991 or so) Wasserboxer used a 76mm crank and 94mm pistons.

@Troy Sloan posted:

Mitch.

I'm no engine builder so this could be wrong, but I've always thought that a 1915cc engine required a different crank in addition to larger cylinders and pistons.

A 1915 has a stock size 69 mm crank with bigger 94 mm pistons and cylinders.

Are the new engine builds that Pat is doing for Vintage built on a new case?

@LI-Rick posted:

Are the new engine builds that Pat is doing for Vintage built on a new case?

I would most definitely think so.

I believe that what Rick is alluding to is that almost all new cases come pre-clearanced.

... which brings up a good point. A counterweighted 69 mm crank is not that much cheaper than a counterweighted 82 mm crank. A CBP Builder's Choice 1915 kit (with all the right stuff) is $4800+/-. A 2110 kit is identical money.

The only way money is saved building a 1915 is if the stock (non-counterweighted) crank is used, which is cheesy in the extreme.

The 2110 will run better and cooler, blow less oil, and have more torque. It seems like a non-choice to me.

@Stan Galat posted:

I believe that what Rick is alluding to is that almost all new cases come pre-clearanced.

... which brings up a good point. A counterweighted 69 mm crank is not that much cheaper than a counterweighted 82 mm crank. A CBP Builder's Choice 1915 kit (with all the right stuff) is $4800+/-. A 2110 kit is identical money.

The only way money is saved building a 1915 is if the stock (non-counterweighted) crank is used, which is cheesy in the extreme.

The 2110 will run better and cooler, blow less oil, and have more torque. It seems like a non-choice to me.

Exactly Stan!  I don't see why anyone builds a stock stroke motor these days. I put an 84mm crank in a stock clearanced case 30 years ago, when I didn't know what the heck I was doing, and it was no big deal.  Just watch for cam clearance. The motor for my Spyder is getting an 86mm crank, but is going in a TF-1 case, which has a .100" dropped cam, so it should drop right in without having to clearance the camshaft.

The 2276(82 stroke, 94 pistons) I built a couple years ago has a clearanced case and cam. It originally had an 86mm Berg 356 journal crank(53mm? rod journals as opposed to 55 VW). So the case was fine, except the cylinder holes were cut for 90.5(92 thin wall) cylinders. I cut the 94mm barrels to fit the case, but had to still clearance BELOW the cylinders for the pistons. I bought a pre-clearanced Webcam for it, and dropped it in no problem.

@Stan Galat posted:

I believe that what Rick is alluding to is that almost all new cases come pre-clearanced.

Which stinks when a totally stock case is necessary for FV. They actually use rubber O-rings to center the cylinders. FV is a 1200, using 77mm cylinders. A standard case is for 85.5mm. Big difference to make up there.

@DannyP posted:

Which stinks when a totally stock case is necessary for FV. They actually use rubber O-rings to center the cylinders. FV is a 1200, using 77mm cylinders. A standard case is for 85.5mm. Big difference to make up there.

I was under the impression you needed old 1200 cc cases. The O-ring thing is odd.

I've got no dog in the hunt, and I'm not going to change the rules of a successful class by taking potshots, but it seems like just going to a 1600 cc engine would be more economical.

It would be, hence Formula First. Formula First is a stock dual port 1600 cc with a stock carb and restrictor plate. The plates are made by ONE source, just like NASCAR.

But they're not doing that where I live. The group runs 1200cc, so unless I want to ride around in competition with myself, that's what I'll run. We have in the neighboorhood of 30 plus cars, and 25 or more attend each race. It works for me, because I want actual competition.

I actually have two old 1200cc cases, along with the race engine that came with the car, which is an AS41 dual relief. I'm building an engine to have as a spare or backup, so as not to waste a weekend due to engine failure.

Some people use metal spacers for the cylinders, but I believe that O-rings are more common today. Once torqued, the cylinders aren't going anywhere. At least that's the theory.

They also made 1200 cc motors much longer for other countries ,

VW Germany sold Mexican bugs with 1200cc motors in the 1980s.

Yes I believe other markets such as Brazil used the 1200s longer

Yes, in many countries vehicle taxes and/or registration fees are based on displacement. So the 1200 worked in those countries very well.

.

@DannyP posted:

.

Yes, in many countries vehicle taxes and/or registration fees are based on displacement...

Which is why the People's Wagen started out as a 1-liter car in the first place, Herr Pipmeister.

If it weren't for that, you might be running a 3-liter FV today.

Ach, du lieber!

.

@DannyP posted:

But they're not doing that where I live. The group runs 1200cc, so unless I want to ride around in competition with myself, that's what I'll run. We have in the neighboorhood of 30 plus cars, and 25 or more attend each race. It works for me, because I want actual competition.

I knew that.

Inertia is a powerful thing. There’s a lot of inertia with the 1200 cc format, even though it stopped making sense a while back.

Anybody ever build a 2442? Sounds pretty sporty.  Done right, might go like stink and last 10K mi before something breaks or warps?

Anyway, I like that Mr Pip here (Herr Pipmeister??) has elected to try to go fast in a slow car. vs to try to go fast in a fast car.  And having a spare motor in the truck, just in case,  gives him a lot of street -- I mean track -- cred. Ought to be more fun.  Puts the emPHAsis on the right SylABLE, which is to say the nut behind the wheel vs the size of the pistons. 

@El Frazoo posted:

Anybody ever build a 2442? Sounds pretty sporty.  Done right, might go like stink and last 10K mi before something breaks or warps?

Anyway, I like that Mr Pip here (Herr Pipmeister??) has elected to try to go fast in a slow car. vs to try to go fast in a fast car.  And having a spare motor in the truck, just in case,  gives him a lot of street -- I mean track -- cred. Ought to be more fun.  Puts the emPHAsis on the right SylABLE, which is to say the nut behind the wheel vs the size of the pistons.

I'm confused. What's a 2442 and who mentioned it? (Edit: I see it now - you were looking at the chart at the biggest engine there - a 94mm x 88mm).

Also, I'm lost regarding "going fast in a slow car". A FV will rip the lungs out of any of our cars. They weigh nothing, and they go like stink, and probably would with a Briggs and Stratton two-cylinder.

A spare motor is just a good idea - I've been running a "spare" motor in my Speedster for a couple of years now. It saves a season from ruin.

emPHAsis on the right SlyABLE? Fa-able? PHASABLE? emsisly?

I guess the whole thing confuses me, but I'm just a pipefitter from flyover, USA.

Help me out here.

@Stan Galat, 2442 is at the bottom right corner of the chart Sacto Mitch posted above.

It has 94 bore and 88 stroke.

Jinx.

I was typing my edit when you were helping a brother understand, Michael.

Thanks.

Any explanation on the emPHAsis on the right SlyABLE?

@Stan Galat posted:

Jinx.

I was typing my edit when you were helping a brother understand, Michael.

Thanks.

Any explanation on the emPHAsis on the right SlyABLE?

I'm just taking a guess here and will say that emPHAsis on the right SylABLE, means The PHA BLE = Fable = fable of the story = the nut behind the wheel vs the size of the pistons determines how fast the car goes.

Maybe, kind of, sort of??? I know, it's a stretch.

My old drag bug had a 2700 cc. type 1 motor , 275 hp on the dyno running alcohol .

84 stroke and 103 mm pistons

This was late 70s…….

I have been to races and seen F-Vee cars go.  They seem to go well, but not all that fast. Very light, so that counts.  Would Danny's special open wheel car leave his Spyder in a cloud of castor oil smoke?  I dunno, we will have to ask him.

And drag bugs and our plastic clown cars are really two very different things.

Re; FV: While there is more than a little to be had with the engineering and tuning, etc. of a Vee racer, the whole thing is arranged to emphasize the skill of that nut behind the wheel.  Which is why it is so much fun.  This year will be Mr. Pip's first full serious season, and its going to be a hoot to follow his progress.  I am certain he will do well.  Clearly, he will come in very high in the fun standings.   Might even win a race or two??

I really regret that I am too far away to watch him race.

I propose that whoever might consider themselves to be close enough to make it feasible, come one weekend to the races and cheer for our one and only Pipmeister.  It would be fun to see how well he does on race day with a hang-over.

I’ve already put the Northeast weekends on my schedule (Mass. and NH).   Should be fun times.

@Michael McKelvey posted:

@Stan Galat, 2442 is at the bottom right corner of the chart Sacto Mitch posted above.

It has 94 bore and 88 stroke.

A friend here in the Vancouver area has a 2442 (Web 86C, IDA's, with some CB heads finished off by local head guru/engine builder Darren Krewenchuck) in a Berg 5'd '67 Cal Look bug and it's a legitimate 7,000+ rpm, 11 second car.  And while you won't see one very often, 2498s (90x94) are not unheard of, and will fit in a VW case as well.  I believe our own Paul from Arizona? with the yellow Speedster built a 2498 for his car a year or 2 ago- iIrc, Competition Engineering put the short (or maybe it was the long) block together for him.

And as mentioned, 94 mm isn't the absolute limit for Type 1 piston/cylinder size- there are 95's (available as Nickies), 96.somethings (I don't remember them being true 97's) drag racers were fond of 30 or 40 years ago, 101.6's (also with conventional cast iron cylinders or Nickies currently) for the really adventurous (a head porter from California was building street engines with the cast iron cylinders 20 or so years ago- too bad he couldn't keep his affairs/finances in order) and, as @imperial (sorry, I don't remember your first name) mentioned, 103's were used by the drag racing crowd back in the Golden Age of VW racing as well.  As the name of the game when we're talking useable street power is displacement,  anything 2200 or so cc's is going to have a bunch of low end/ lower middle range power, and the bigger you go the better it is!

This chart is a little more complete-

@ALB posted:

And 94 mm isn't the absolute limit for Type 1 piston/cylinder size- there are 95's (available as Nickies), 96.somethings (I don't remember them being true 97's) drag racers were fond of 30 or 40 years ago, 101.6's (also with conventional cast iron cylinders or Nickies) for the really adventurous (a head porter from California was trying to push street engines with the cast iron cylinders 20 or so years ago- too bad he couldn't keep his affairs in order) and, as @imperial (sorry, I don't remember your first name) mentioned, 103's were tried by the drag racing crowd back in the Golden Age of VW racing as well.

When I was in the thrall of the twin-plug experiment, I was looking at all sorts of ways to increase the bore size, and explored the 95s and the 4" bore. 95 mm is a Porsche piston (if memory serves), and 4" of course is SBC. If you look at a engine calculator, it's really hard to build displacement by increasing stroke, and really easy with bore. If you're twin sparking - the benefits don't really come on hard until about 100 mm, where it really starts to pay off. That made the 4" thing particularly appealing.

I know who you're talking about, but forget his name. Older guy, made a living as a head porter, and had a website devoted to 4" Type 1a called 4inbore.com or some such thing. He six studded an aluminum case, and used angle-port heads, which made the whole thing way outside the mainstream.

If I still wanted to do it (and I've finally grown out of it), the only guy I'd consider would be JPM in Sweden. He's got the heads for it, completely ready to go - with the giant valves (48s, if memory serves) and the attendant cylinders and custom pistons, etc. The heads are priced like shards of the true cross, and at that point - I'd have him build the whole thing, crazy-expensive Raptor cam and all. I'd think you'd be looking at a 3L T1 in the $25K neighborhood (FOB: Sweden). You'd still have to get it here and pay the duty.

At that point, I'd just buy a 6-speed Hellcat if I want to be the king of the street _{(not that I would ever hoon on the public roadway, perish the thought - there might be an elderly blind cow, lost and wandering in the roadway)} and use what I've got in the mountains.