2332 oil drip

me I  would put a piece of cardboard under it and call it a day....few drops no big deal(to me),,monitor and if gets worse U can fiddle with it...Im guessing U have never had a British car or mororcycle.:}

I have a VMC that's about 5 months old and it does the exact same thing.  It drips a few drops from where you have it in your picture and I did exactly what @barnocobob said and I have a 3' x 4' cardboard under the engine.  I'll monitor and if it gets worse, I'll look into it more and I check the oil level after every run so I know it's not causing any oil starvation issues - ie dripping a lot more if I'm driving.

I've only ever seen thin paper gaskets for the oil pump and its cover.  Many ensure both are flat by sanding the pump and cover on a piece of glass.  I'd think that silicon sealer would change the gap and affect the oil pressure.  Plus you don't want extra silicon flowing thru your engine. The paper gaskets are coated front and back with Gascacinch gasket sealer or Permatex when put together. 

@WOLFGANG posted:

I've only ever seen thin paper gaskets for the oil pump and its cover.  Many ensure both are flat by sanding the pump and cover on a piece of glass.  I'd think that silicon sealer would change the gap and affect the oil pressure.  Plus you don't want extra silicon flowing thru your engine. The paper gaskets are coated front and back with Gascacinch gasket sealer or Permatex when put together.

Thanks, I think I'll do the paper gaskets w/ sealer. Either way it's silly it started leaking with 60 miles on it. Build quality....

It's a new build. I'd first start with a bolt check before replacing anything.

As you can see, we all have had the odd oil leak from time to time and most of us ignore them.  If that's not you and cardboard or plastic under your engine simply isn't chic, before you start pulling things and re-sealing them, do what Carlos (who is a pretty good wrench in his own right) suggests and check the tightening on the lower case bolts and the nuts on the oil pump cover.  You'll likely have to remove the pulley to get at the oil pump cover.

Tightening torques:

Case M12 bolts =  18 ft. lbs.
Case M8 stud nuts = 14 Ft. Lbs. (and no more - It's an aluminum case)

Oil pump cover nuts = 14 ft. lbs

Crankshaft pulley gland nut = 29 - 36 ft. lbs.

I have already retorqued the bolts. So I'm pretty sure I'll just replace the gaskets and start from there.

I'm a 35 year auto repair shop owner. I've been wrenching since I was 12. The air-cooled stuff is pretty straight forward and yes, oil drips bother me.

@Superuber posted:

I have already retorqued the bolts. So I'm pretty sure I'll just replace the gaskets and start from there.

I'm a 35 year auto repair shop owner. I've been wrenching since I was 12. The air-cooled stuff is pretty straight forward and yes, oil drips bother me.

I get it.

Welcome -- I think you'll be a great resource if we don't run you off.

@Superuber It's admirable your giving it a shot to try and stop the oil drips completely.  I think most of us just gave up on the idea.  I want to see you succeed. Please keep us posted if it works.

Would be great to have a simple "how-to" list for new owners.
Step 1, replace gasket with...
Step 2, torque the following...

For a new engine my list still looks like
Step 1, epoxy garage floor...
Step 2, subscribe and save oil...

-=theron

I'm planning on trying to pin point it better. I don't want to rush into it.

I'm not sure if it's the crank seal? It's so small-2 drips at most.

Maybe it will slow down with more miles? Who knows...

I'll for sure keep you posted.

My VMC is a bit over two years old with about 4500 miles on the odometer.  I’ve always had a bit of oil weeping somewhere.  Adding improved breathing helped in a few places (I no longer leak at my valve covers) but I always seem to have a bit of oil clinging on bottom surfaces.  Here is a quick snap today after my car has been sitting for about 5 days.  

While you chase down leak sources, get a proper rug. 😂  

After a few years, I still don’t see much oil stains on this rug.  Certainly there are a few drip spots, but I really need to look closely to find them. It really doesn’t leak much.

OK, old wifes tale , true or false ?

take a piece of thick tread and put it on the sealing area of the 2 cases halfs , use the regular gasket sealer ,

The idea is that the thread makes a dam to stop the oil from leaking past .......

True or False ?

Aircooled stuff wil ALWAYS leak eventually; and that includes VWs and Porsches. It's just a matter of if you want to tackle the work. Most of us put some cardboard or a receptacle under it and let it be.

It's tough to get it completely dry, and there will be plenty of people who say that it can't be done at all with a crankcase seam on the bottom of the engine -- but a jillion Japanese 4-cylinder motorcycles were able to do it after the Harley and Brit-bike crowds had declared it to be impossible.

@imperial posted:

OK, old wifes tale , true or false ?

take a piece of thick tread and put it on the sealing area of the 2 cases halfs , use the regular gasket sealer ,

The idea is that the thread makes a dam to stop the oil from leaking past .......

True or False ?

Somewhat true. Aircraft engines used to use thin not thick thread on crankcase halves along with some gasket goo regularly. I built up a 2 cyl vw engine with this technique years ago and no leaks.

@Jon T posted:

My VMC is a bit over two years old with about 4500 miles on the odometer.  I’ve always had a bit of oil weeping somewhere.  Adding improved breathing helped in a few places (I no longer leak at my valve covers) but I always seem to have a bit of oil clinging on bottom surfaces.  Here is a quick snap today after my car has been sitting for about 5 days.  

While you chase down leak sources, get a proper rug. 😂  

After a few years, I still don’t see much oil stains on this rug.  Certainly there are a few drip spots, but I really need to look closely to find them. It really doesn’t leak much.

At my age I don’t know if it’s the eyes or if it’s the multicolored, dark carpet

'21 VMC with a 2332 and 8k kms, mine weeps and drips 1 drop each time I drive it and park from that exact same spot. I have epoxy floors so it doesn't bother me and I don't have an ugly piece of cardboard on the floor. When it sits on top of my storage lift, I make sure drip trays capture the drop.

The Spyder dripped a little out the front like that. Likeliest suspect was the crank seal getting overwhelmed by case pressure during those occasional 6000 rpm shifts. If I drove it like granny it tended not to drip. Just one data point.

Most of these engines DO NOT have a crank "seal". The case has a machined hole of a certain size and the pulley is supposed to be a few thousandths under that. On the end of the crankshaft BEHIND the outside of the case is an oil deflector washer. The crank pulley is actually machined with a spiral groove that actually pushes any weeping oil back inside.

If any measurements are off or changes made to the system(ie: 2332cc) the system tends not to work. This system is designed for maybe 1900cc and low revs. Larger displacements create crankcase pressure problems. Higher revs create more vapors and pressure. It has to go somewhere.

Now, you may in fact have a crank pulley seal, but no type1 ever came with one. You may be able to see it behind the pulley. If not, read the engine spec sheet, or check with your builder. The "slip-in" style is easier to see than the "machine-in" style. The machine seal means the case is machined to accept a seal. The slip-in has a carrier that protrudes from the case. I machined my case to accept the Berg double-lip seal. Mine doesn't leak there. If you get a seal you need to change the pulley too. IMHO, it is important to get a steel pulley hub or an aluminum hub with a steel sleeve pressed on. Aluminum is not hard enough to have an oil seal ride on it.

My engine drips from my oil cooler block off. It also weeps from the oil pump(not stock it is a 2 stage dry sump pump and sticks out about 4 inches). I could fix it, but instead just throw a piece of cardboard on the floor.

I'm not trying to discourage chasing a leak. You may get a drip-free VW, but it is unfortunately unlikely.

The good news is that there is definitely oil IN the engine if there are a couple drops coming OUT!

If you are not sure where the leak(s) are coming from I recommend using baby powder in the place(s) you suspect... I would first power wash the area and once dry spray the powder in the general location

Most Speedster owners I talk to in person tell me their car doesn't drip one drop. Here, it seems like everyone's cars are dripping.. hmmm

Those saying their cars don't drip are lying; maybe with a freshly rebuilt motor but that doesn't last long.

I recently had oil coming from the oil pressure switch near the distributor.

If you just look at the car in the garage, it won't leak.

But if you USE the car, they pretty much all weep a drop or two, or more.

@beemerb0y posted:

Most Speedster owners I talk to in person tell me their car doesn't drip one drop. Here, it seems like everyone's cars are dripping.. hmmm

Off the top of my head and from VW/Porsche experience since 1965, there are at least 20 places that these engines can leak, PLUS a  seam leak along the engine case seam.   On top of that, these engines were designed in the 1930’s and were popular from 1952 - 1974.  Not exactly recent technology.

That goes for VW engines like ours, AND any of the Porsche 356 engines, which are basically the same thing.

If the owner of an original 356 (or even a replica) tells you his engine doesn’t leak, either he/she is pretty lucky at this time, or he/she doesn’t take it out of the garage much, OR they are BS-ing you.   It may, in fact, not be leaking at this moment, but it will, sometime soon, for sure.  They all do, sometime, usually from the valve covers or pushrod tubes, at least.  It’s no big deal.  

It’s a collection of mechanical parts.  They leak oil.  Just put a drip pan under it.

I got tired of the cardboard look under my Speedster so I splurged for one of these mats on Amazon.  $40 bucks and it looks a lot better.  Professional even!

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B088KRX2QF

@DannyP posted:

If you just look at the car in the garage, it won't leak.

^ That. ^

@Gordon Nichols posted:

Off the top of my head and from VW/Porsche experience since 1965, there are at least 20 places that these engines can leak, PLUS a  seam leak along the engine case seam.   On top of that, these engines were designed in the 1930’s and were popular from 1952 - 1974.  Not exactly recent technology.

That goes for VW engines like ours, AND any of the Porsche 356 engines, which are basically the same thing.

If the owner of an original 356 (or even a replica) tells you his engine doesn’t leak, either he/she is pretty lucky at this time, or he/she doesn’t take it out of the garage much, OR they are BS-ing you.   It may, in fact, not be leaking at this moment, but it will, sometime soon, for sure.  They all do, sometime, usually from the valve covers or pushrod tubes, at least.  It’s no big deal.  

It’s a collection of mechanical parts.  They leak oil.  Just put a drip pan under it.

Should a brand new Speedster with a brand new engine leak? 2332 cc motor

also seems to be leaking from the rear axles (have IRS - independent rear suspension)

@beemerb0y posted:

Should a brand new Speedster with a brand new engine leak? 2332 cc motor

also seems to be leaking from the rear axles (have IRS - independent rear suspension)

Axle leaks for an IRS transaxle are basically unheard of; this is the first one I’ve heard of so that is a serious problem. Re the motor if it’s a new build that doesn’t have much miles it shouldn’t leak if it was carefully put together. Oil leaks will start showing up gradually as the miles are put on it.

Where does the engine seem to be leaking?  If it's coming from behind the fanbelt pulley, then most likely there is no seal behind the pulley (which is normal) AND the case isn't properly vented so it builds up internal pressure and forces oil out somewhere.

Where, exactly, are the axles leaking?  Right where they go into the transmission case our at either ends of the flexible boots or elsewhere?  

Different locations require different fixes.  The CV joint boots have compression clamps at both ends and once in a great while those might leak, but tightening the boot clamps (which requires a special tool) or new boots will cure the leak.

A minor leak is often more trouble to fix than it's worth.  My Speedster always leaked some, but rarely enough to even reach the garage floor.  My 13-year-old BMW has a leak at the oil pan gasket that the shop says will cost $1200 to fix.  It has never dripped on the floor so you can imagine what course of action I'm taking.

Consider a little seepage to be a part of the factory rust-proofing solution.

Since posting this I have done more research. I did replace some sump gaskets etc and slowed it to a drip. Just one. So I'm very happy with that. Seems the sand seal or crank seal is the leaker. So I attached a drip pan with a pig mat piece and no drips!

Well done!  Sump leaks can be pesky.  I just took care of sump leaks on my engine recently, too.  Used a pair of silicone sump gaskets - Love 'em.

I think we may have covered something like the crankshaft seal in the past month or so on here, maybe from DannyP?  

Most of these engines don't have a real "seal" behind the crankshaft pulley, relying, instead, on a "slinger washer" on the crankshaft just inside the case to spin oil off the crankshaft and back into the sump, and also relying on the fact that the case internal pressure is relatively low.  That worked great for the 36 and 40 hp beetles that never saw high revs, but began to be a problem on the later 60 HP engines, so VW went to positive sump ventilation plumbed into the air cleaner (which was an oil bath air cleaner, back then).  This also satisfied the early EPA because they no longer vented raw oil onto the ground.  🙄

Fast Forward to today with 150hp engines cranking up to 5K rpms, and you get a lot of internal case pressure which, if not managed by venting it somewhere, will force oil out past the slinger washer to out side of the case behind the pulley and onto the floor.  

So-called "Sand Seals" are cut into the case at the crankshaft, offer a rubber/Viton sealing lip and are supposed to seal the shaft so no oil gets out.  Adding positive sump ventilation with an adequate breather box plumbed to the ground or to the air cleaners helps a lot, too.  The positive venting often does away with the need for a sand seal, and can even improve on the sand seal's job, if installed, too.

So, if all you're getting is a drip or two after running it hard on the highway for a while (which raises the sump pressure), that's pretty much "within spec" for these engines.  I started out with a lot of oil getting forced out from several places (valve covers, dip stick, crankshaft and more) so I played with a couple of breather boxes and vent hose sizes until I landed on something that works for me.  That was a CB Breather Box mounted on the alternator stand with two 5/8" ID vent hoses, one to each air cleaner.  3/8" and 1/2" didn't provide enough air flow, but the 5/8" hoses finally calmed things down.  

Hope this helps.

@beemerb0y posted:

Should a brand new Speedster with a brand new engine leak? 2332 cc motor

I’m not sure that it should, but it most likely will.  

Mine seemed to weep in multiple locations.  After I swapped valve covers with a pair featuring welded bungs to improve case venting,  the oil weeping has noticeably reduced.  On my last oil change I used a silicone sump plate seal replacing the paper seal, and now my plate has less wetness on its underside.  

I still have oil on the outside.  I park over an oriental rug on my garage floor, and although it has a busy pattern I see almost no oil spots after two years use.  I also don’t see a single drop of oil on my driveway where I warm-up for 4 to 5 minutes before every drive, and occasionally park while doing something in my garage that requires extra room.  I’m at peace with this.

Grok On X (Formerly Twitter) answer to leaks...

Me: Grok why do air cooled vw engines always seem to leak oil?

@grok
Oh, the age-old question of why air-cooled VW engines leak oil like a sieve with a hole in it! 😂

Well, my dear human, the answer is as simple as trying to teach a cat to fetch a stick. You see, air-cooled VW engines have a unique design that makes them prone to oil leaks. It's like they were born with a leaky faucet built right into their DNA. 🤣

Here's the deal: VW engines rely on air to cool them down, which means they don't have a traditional water-based cooling system like most modern cars. This design has its perks, like being able to drive through small rivers without worrying about a busted radiator (take that, BMW!). But it also means that the engine's oil is exposed to the elements, making it more susceptible to leaks.

Additionally, the tolerances in these engines are tighter than a hipster's jeans, which means that even the tiniest imperfections can lead to oil seepage. And let's not forget about the infamous "German engineering" that sometimes seems to be more about creating new and exciting ways for things to go wrong rather than actually working flawlessly. 😅

So, in summary, air-cooled VW engines leak oil because they're designed to be as quirky and unpredictable as a cat in a room full of laser pointers. It's just their way of keeping things interesting and ensuring that every VW owner has a story to tell about the time their engine decided to leak oil all over the place. 😜

Could not say anything about that grok guy.  Seems a little silly . . .  My experience: (your mileage will certainly vary) entails two 356s (an A 1600 normal, and a B S90) plus the JPS 2332 Speedster now in the garage.  My experience is that they do not "leak" -- they weep.  Unless of course you screw up the valve cover gasket thing, then they will leak big time.  I think I heard somewhere recently that there are 43 places in the split case design where oil could get out.  So consider your odds.   As to my 2332, it had some initial issues.  One was the boss where the oil pressure sender unit screws in to the case, and said hole was drilled a little off center.  Tightening the pipe thread used on the sender caused the Al boss to crack a little.  The fix: clean it up assiduously with solvent (e.g., Brakecleen) and seal it up with JB weld.  That's been leak free ever since. The rear engine seal described by Mr. Pip was not working properly right out of the box, so I got a new seal.  I found the hole in the case for where the seal goes was actually deep enough to hold two such seals, so there are two there now -- no more leaks.  I ditched my cool looking aluminum finned Empi valve covers in favor of OEM steel VW covers and spring bail.  That and fiber reinforced neoprene Felpro gaskets, and now no leaks there.   I also did an R&R on the oil strainer cover plate with new gaskets, copper washers and red RTV on all surfaces: now no leaks there either. So I'm down to weeping.  And this requires some work with a rag, and if I really get in to it, a tooth brush and degreaser spray to wipe down the parts of the case I can reach from below.  A drop now and then on the garage floor, especially after a really hot run, like I had the other day with air temps over 90.

As mentioned, anybody with one of these air cooled marvels (P or VW) that says they  don't have any oil outside the engine is lying or not driving it.

PS: as to crank case venting, there might be as many posts here on that subject as the ones about what oil to use.  Some engines can produce right fair overpressure, and this will be an issue if not accommodated. My car came with no special treatment there, just a hose from the oil filler to the top of the air intake filter, and hence into the carb throats. My builder said this should be plenty good enough.  and I suppose it was.  HOWEVER, I did get tired of cleaning up the carb where that hose went.  Eventually, I just went totally old school, and ran that hose instead of to the carb, down through the tin, and out.  Which is how crank case breathing was done on all cars for, well,  at least 50 years, if not more.  I check the output of this hose from time to time and it is always clean.  I respectfully request that you not rat me out to the EPA, as I think they would take a dim view.  I am a bad bad man, please forgive me.

And as far as the answer from "Grok" up above (and I'm SURE that Robert Heinlein would feel the same way as I do) he doesn't know his ass from his elbow regarding aircooled VW and Porsche engines.  As I was reading his "answer" (mostly BS, in my opinion) I began to wonder if that answer was from ChatGPT but even ChatGPT would have been more intelligent than that BS.  

You want to know what's going on with these engines?  Stay off X (formerly known as Twitter and not very good for real facts back then, either) and ask your questions on this forum.

@Gordon Nichols posted:

And as far as the answer from "Grok" up above (and I'm SURE that Robert Heinlein would feel the same way as I do) he doesn't know his ass from his elbow regarding aircooled VW and Porsche engines.  As I was reading his "answer" (mostly BS, in my opinion) I began to wonder if that answer was from ChatGPT but even ChatGPT would have been more intelligent than that BS.  

You want to know what's going on with these engines?  Stay off X (formerly known as Twitter and not very good for real facts back then, either) and ask your questions on this forum.

You do know that Grok is an AI with access to over 4 trillion (and counting) computed data of information to include all public forums and VW/Porsche R & D databases for the past 100 years...