Kitman Speedster progress update

Sounds like some serious issues.

Hope you are able to sort these out.

Can you provide some pictures?

Will do later today.

Dave - I wondered how the FF/CMC build manual matched up to a Kitman build.  Be sure to make notes in the build manual for others who might be so adventurous.

On my CMC with factory mounted doors, the lower rear sticks out about 1/4" on both sides.  The door is made much like a modern car door in 2 pieces that are bonded together. 1 piece is the outer door skin and other the structural piece.  Mine is black gel coat - when/if I paint it I will grind out the Bondo (pink) that CMC used to attached the 2 pieces together - that way I can close where it sticks out.  I'm sure the bonding is the issue on yours.

550 2 door pieces as example - couldn't find image at RustyTubs for 356.

My hinges were a pain to mount.  Once they opened and closed ok (done before pan was mounted).  The hinges hit the shroud and I had to flip the hinges side to side so they were set wider.  I didn't have issues with the rain shield using a later dog house OEM cooler.  Maybe look for a shorter PUMA shroud or Thing one?

Thanks!  I feel sure the doors will require some surgery.  I did find a shroud that I think will work.  Will send some pix later.

Dave

I assume you purchased the tube inner frame from Kitman too, it would be nearly impossible to rack the fiberglass so much as to cause a 1" door issue.  Post some photos of the issues and we can be of help.......... On a number of my past CMC FF speedster builds, the rear of the doors protruded 3/8" or more . My fix was to cut the 3/8" from the inner panel and 3M Panel Bond it back together.

I'll send some pix.  I recall the protrusion at the bottom of the door in my case was more like 3/4".  I suppose the fix it the same.  Thanks!

Yikes!

I remember instructions manual for the CMC said all holes/cutouts were clearly marked with dimples in the gel coat --- apparently that was the case for those bodies molded several years beforeo - but not in the mold used for mine.  I had to call about mounting the windshield posts.  I received a rough drawing faxed to me at work.  I measured and there was a difference in measurements side to side!

@WOLFGANG posted:

I remember instructions manual for the CMC said all holes/cutouts were clearly marked with dimples in the gel coat --- apparently that was the case for those bodies molded several years beforeo - but not in the mold used for mine.  I had to call about mounting the windshield posts.  I received a rough drawing faxed to me at work.  I measured and there was a difference in measurements side to side!

There were three CMC classic molds A,B,C . The A did have the dimples in the Gelcoat on early production bodies but there was never a marked location for the windshield post location. Now days I can point with my finger where to drill the 5/8" hole in the top of the fender .

Alan:  Actually my build is on a shortened VW pan with a Kitman subframe for the body.  I know my welding job was not perfect, but with the subframe it can’t be off by much.

CMC build manual had me using two 2x4" from Lowes to align the pan cuts/reweld.  Ever find a straight 2x4?  It would not take much to throw the trans mounting frame horns off a few degrees.  Wish I had known someone with a flat steel welding table.  Hoping a good 4 wheel alignment will compensate (straighten) any unknown error.

So here are a couple of pictures of the the door gap and a couple my newly fabricated rear body mounts with cutouts for the exhaust.  I am resigned to trimming the door and I feel sure that will fix that problem.  I may not want to tackle that myself though.  Jury is still out on my rear body mount.  In the pictures you can see how I cut and sleeved the mount that came with the kit and which extended to the very back of the body.  As provided by Kitman there was no way to install it after the body was on the chassis.  It may have been possible to install the mount first and then somehow slide the body over it, but I didn’t have enough willing friends to try that.  Then, I discovered that the exhaust headers on the front of the  engine (relative to the car) were obstructed by the mount.  Back to the drawing board!  The pictures show what I came up with - while not super proud of my welding skills, but I am good with a grinder!.  No matter what, this seems like a lot of weight and leverage on the trans mounting bolts.  I think CMC had a portion of the main (welded) frame extend toward the rear of the car which seems like a far better solution.

I welcome feedback.

Dave

Here's a bare CMC sub-frame from a burnt up Speedster (ignore red marks).  The square tubing to the rear is not very strong and relies on a few rivets to it to support the tail fiberglass (hence butt sag with a bigger gap at rear top of doors (easy fix).  I like the way you moved it back.  With a T1 engine the transmission/frame horns and an add-on Kaffer brace will handle a good size engine (if frame horns don't have internal rust).  The rear brace would be handy for hanging a heavier type 4 engine or a Subaru rear mounting point.

Without door strikers installed, will your door close further? Mine are only stick out for a few inches up the door (maybe 4-5 max).  Or do you have rubber seal installed pushing it out?  Alan for sure has an idea.

Dave, I wonder if you are the first individual to actually assemble a Kitman ?

Dave, I'm not that familiar with the Kitman parts but the u shape frame that hangs out the back from the frame horns needs to be pretty stiff. I think you need to replace the flat strips on the top or bottom with a square tube otherwise it will flex too much.

When I look at the Kitman frame - it looks less robust than the CMC frame.

The around the interior cabin part of the CMC is like 3x4" steel.

The part to the rear is about the same but the CMC has welded posts behind door for the show bar mounting (which many use to run more steek to the back to correct butt sag.  I would complete the boxing in of the area where you added strips.  I would also consider adding gussets wherever possible.  Believe near all CMC came with the subframe bonded and riveted to the fiberglass body (save shipping volume and gives rigidity to body during handling.

@Alan Merklin posted:

Dave, I wonder if you are the first individual to actually assemble a Kitman ?

@Chris Kleber, KitMan Motors  has a Customer projects page. When I look at it, I see pictures of s Spyder with a DeDion rear suspension, another Spyder with a coil over rear. When I look at your chassis offerings, I see neither of those. What’s up with this?

@Nadodave posted:

...   Jury is still out on my rear body mount.  In the pictures you can see how I cut and sleeved the mount that came with the kit and which extended to the very back of the body.  As provided by Kitman there was no way to install it after the body was on the chassis.  It may have been possible to install the mount first and then somehow slide the body over it, but I didn’t have enough willing friends to try that.  Then, I discovered that the exhaust headers on the front of the  engine (relative to the car) were obstructed by the mount.  Back to the drawing board!  The pictures show what I came up with - while not super proud of my welding skills, but I am good with a grinder!.  No matter what, this seems like a lot of weight and leverage on the trans mounting bolts.  I think CMC had a portion of the main (welded) frame extend toward the rear of the car which seems like a far better solution.

I welcome feedback.

Dave

I do not think the rear mount, that apparently is bolted on by the trans bolts, is a good idea.  That is one helluva moment arm on the frame horns.  The frame horns were designed to support the engine and trans, but I would not want to add the extra load, especially extended out so far.  Actually, many folks (myself included) add a kafer brace to help support and stiffen the frame horns.  This is an indication that the horns are not a tremendously strong part of the frame.

I would attach a rear mount that is designed and attached more like the CMC frame.  It could be welded/bolted to the subframe on each side and form a u-shaped support frame around the rear of the engine compartment.

Thanks for the feedback everybody.  I'm not an engineer (I played one in the Navy!), but I was/am concerned about the weight and twisting moment of the brace on the frame horns.  I think I am now resigned to jacking the body up enough to weld a substantial rear body brace to the Kitman subframe.  For James - is this what you are referring to for a kafer brace: https://www.coolrydescustoms.c...afer-bar-system.html.  Thanks again everybody.  I may not be the first to do a Kitman (at least this far), but it is more challenging than I expected!

That link doesn't work, Dave, although that Mendeola Brace (the "Stiffy"?) is supposed to be a tad stiffer, if that's important to you.  So to compare, here's a Kafer Brace at JBUGS:

https://www.jbugs.com/product/...Kx4D_ghoCl-oQAvD_BwE

And the one I use from CB Perf:

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/4501.htm

Either one works the same, either one can be pre-loaded, slightly, and all three should work great.

Kafer bar configuration on the Outlaw build.

@Nadodave the kafer bar from CB Performance that Gordon links above is the one that I am using also.

Awesome, thanks.  The Outlaw build frame looks amazing!

@Alan Merklin, which Kafer is on the outlaw?

The CB one appears less expensive and is USA made.  The JBugs is EMPI so China?

I ordered the CB part.  Currently measuring and assessing my plan of attack for fabbing and welding a new rear brace to the subframe.  Again, thanks for all the feedback!  

@Michael McKelvey posted:

@Alan Merklin, which Kafer is on the outlaw?

Mendeola  & very solid design.

Looking Great Alan!!!

Here is what I did on a 1958 Karmann Ghia.  This triangulated the frame horns and tied them into the torsion tube. This work out very well. I’m sure you could do something similar and tie it in to the rear subframe.  If you try this, put the transmission rear mount on before you weld on the  frame horns, as the  heat will move them!  I also used this to tie into a roll ball, that is the upper plates in the picture.

Wow!

For Li-Rick:  As I mentioned above I need to fab a rear body brace for my Kitman Speedster.  It had not crossed my mind that I might be able to cantilever it on the torsion tube.  Any issues with welding on the torsion tube?  I envision welding a bracket on the torsion tube and then bolting a cantilever arm to it to support the brace that is welded to the subframe.

Thanks in advance.

@Nadodave posted:

For Li-Rick:  As I mentioned above I need to fab a rear body brace for my Kitman Speedster.  It had not crossed my mind that I might be able to cantilever it on the torsion tube.  Any issues with welding on the torsion tube?  I envision welding a bracket on the torsion tube and then bolting a cantilever arm to it to support the brace that is welded to the subframe.

Thanks in advance.

No problem welding to the torsion tube. That is the strongest piece of steel on the whole chassis. Make sure you get good penetration on your welds and use tube of sufficient diameter and wall thickness. I used 1.5”  x  3/16” wall.

I'm always worried about the condition of the 50+ year old frame horns.  I bought a '74 rear hunk for rear tunnel VIN/title and transmission.  It was bought in VA beach and I knew the frame horns were bad.  They were really bad!  Rusted from inside out.

NadodaveI I welded brackets and then installed two braces from the frame horns up to the CMC rear frame. Bonded two fibreglass brackets to the inside back of the body and then bolted to the rear frame as well. Definately took the flex out of the body.

Fortunately, they sell an aftermarket frame horn assembly for reasonably money the issue is you need to construct a temporary jig so that you get the correct factory orientation but if, you frame horns are severely rusted you can count on them not being in the precise location as from the factory.                                        https://acmecarco.com/store/in...;sort=20a&page=3

Jesse:  Your fab looks great.  The Kitman kit has no rear body's brace so I will have to fabricate that as well But that shouldn’t be difficult.  I am wondering why you didn’t just bolt the body to the new rear brace - not being familiar with the CMC configuration

Dave

NadodaveHi, Dave the body is bolted to the side rails on the rear subframe as well. Those braces pick up the load and transfer it to the frame horns, tying everything together.

Thanks Jesse.  Seems like the CMC frame (or at least the rear subframe) was better thought out than the Kitman.