Thunder Ranch build thread

So I re-did the leaky axle boots this am and refilled the trans with 90-wt. Seems to be OK.

Also got the clam back on to see if the shroud interferes with its closing. It does not! The engine cover latches nice with about a quarter inch to spare. Big relief.

I re-did the front turn latches because the square key on the original aluminum jobbies stripped. The new ones are zinc steel bolts ground and filed to shape. pita but they work.

The prop rod and leather catch strap (both in the style of the original) are also made and in.

I tried to adjust the hood slightly too since it was just a hair too tight and ripped a thumbnail's worth of new paint off the nose of the car, right where everyone will notice. 

Work continues on the wiring....

Ed, your level of OCD is climbing     Nice work. 

OK, babies, here's a TMI update regarding wiring: It is getting done.

My neighbor Johnny dropped by this a.m. ahead of his uncle's wake (?!) & spent an hour and a half tracing wires with me. We got the turn signal inputs and outputs mapped (finally) and so I now know: it's an early (1956-59) Beetle switch. Six wires, one for each corner and two hot inputs--one from the flasher and the other from the brake light. Apparently this is what overrides the blink signal in the back when the brakes are applied. Or something. 

Anyway, the car's harness was made with something else in mind—one signal wire for each side—but that seems easy to modify as I can actually see the splices.*

So now I'm making the rear light subharness to plug into the clam shell. I added an extra thick green ground wire I'm going to run to the ground lug I'm putting on the torsion tube. That will be wired directly with like a #2 gauge battery cable back to the other ground post under the dash, which is cabled to the battery's negative post. 

The chassis also has a ground strap and I'll strap the engine and trans too but trying to be fastidious about grounds on this car. An extra pound or two of copper seems a small penalty.

We also got the starter wire and the key switch mapped out, plus the alternator. There are a few more back there still I'm not sure about: the color coding on the harness isn't a perfect match to either of the instruction sets I have. 

But in the main, progress!

Oh! And I also found out why my fuel sender wasn't right. I was using the wrong orange wire! Found the one I'd already labeled "sender" today way up under the dash. I have no idea what the other one is for.

Anyway, I installed a new sender in Bridget and her gauge once again works. So I'm still short one sender; will order tonight or tomorrow...

After that it's down to horns, headlights, coil and a few other engine monitoring devices...

Oh, plus the Accusump and the seat heaters. 

==

*Spyder builders/wirers: does this sound remotely plausible? Or is there some inescapable reason one must somehow splice in a trailer light system back there?

Usually one of the orange wires is the tach signal,   maybe someone used the 4 prong trailer plug with one of those trailer light conversion boxes?

Ed, no, you don't NEED to use the brake/turn trailer logic converter. I did mine with a 2 prong flasher, a few diodes, and a bunch of relays. I also incorporated 4 way flashers and the "turn signal is on light" on the tach.

I can email you my diagram, but it is truly easier to use the converter. The problem is two of them burned out on me so I was sick of that problem.

Thanks, Danny. What I don't get is why the trailer thing is necessary. Early Beetles had dual element, single bulb tail lights, right? My TD (1969 Beetle pan) has the same. There are no trailer wiring modules in those and the lights work as they should. So my thing is, why, on Spyders, are trailer modules canon?

Sorry I'm dense.

edsnova posted:

Thanks, Danny. What I don't get is why the trailer thing is necessary. Early Beetles had dual element, single bulb tail lights, right? My TD (1969 Beetle pan) has the same. There are no trailer wiring modules in those and the lights work as they should. So my thing is, why, on Spyders, are trailer modules canon?

Sorry I'm dense.

Is it so they can remove the rear clam shell from the car completely?

 You Do the Same Things With a better connecter

I think the problem is displaying three functions - tail light, brake, turn signal - with two filaments.

You can make this work with creative use of some relays, so maybe early VW's did that? Our Speedsters have three filaments so don't need to bother with this. The Spyder, I assume, has only two filaments.

Daytime, all is simple and cool. One bulb for brake, one for turn. Ah, but then night falls and we need a running light. Use the same filament for brake as during the day, but light up the other filament for use as a running light.

But how do you then signal a turn?

Well, when the running lights are on, the blips of power from the flasher circuit are now used to interrupt the tail light (and the brake light, too, if your foot's on the brake).

One of the relays connects the ground of the light fixture to the car's ground. During the day, that relay is unpowered so the light fixture is always grounded. But with the running lights on, the pulses of power from the flasher are now switched to the relay that grounds the light fixture. When the flasher flashes 'on', the tail light (and brake light on that side) lose their ground momentarily and go off.

I think you need three relays to make that all work for both sides. There are probably other ways to make it happen, too, but I'd need a lot more coffee to figure them out.

And something makes me think you might need a judiciously placed diode or two to keep some things from lighting up when you don't want them to.

I dug out the wiring diagram for a 1960-ish VW sedan because that vintage car had a single, two-filament rear light that gave you tail light, stop light and directional in a single bulb, AND should have that smaller diameter column, too.  The diagram might help you, Ed, in unnahstaning how it works.

The VW directional lever on the steering column is all you need and takes the place of any relays.  The 1959-1960-ish lever switch has all four lights fed into it, along with a 12V signal wire from the brake switch AND a pulsed 12V wire from the flasher - six wires in all.

If the lever is neutral, it feeds the 12V signal from the stop light switch directly to both rear brake filaments and they light up with braking.

If the lever is moved left, it gets it's 12V pulsed power from the flasher (which is just a thermally operated switch that pulses on and off when power is applied), disconnects both the right side lights and connects both lefts.

Move it to the right and the opposite happens.

So, if the lever is moved to the right and you step on the brake, and it applies the brake 12V to the left side rear while it continues to blink both right sides (front/rear).  

All of the switching is done inside of the directional lever switch.

The attached circuit diagram uses a 3-prong flasher:  Constant 12V from the fuse, pulsed 12V to the lever switch and a pulsed 12V to the dash lamp which it assumes is seeing 12V on the other side (sounds strange, but it works).  Others may work differently - this is how VW did it in 1960.

If a 2-wire flasher is used they usually connect the dash lamp to the lever wire of the flasher and the dash lamp pulses whenever the flasher is activated.  

There are other versions of how this works, but this one should do it for Ed, without a trailer converter and should be Über reliable.  The converters do the job, but cost $20+ and the el cheapos don't last.

Yeah, but my way could be done with $15 worth of relays, no hard-to-find VW switch, and you get the satisfaction of a quiet evening spent soldering at the workbench, solving another of life's most vexing problems with your own wits.

I think anyone who fabricates his own brackets would prefer this solution.

Hell, you could probably put the relays inside a CAD-designed aluminum enclosure that resembled the diaxial Hotchkiss valve on the original Spyder.

I totally agree.   Ed......   Get out the cardboard and start fabbing up your controller box. 

Don’t forget to drill a buncha holes in it to lighten it.  

Ed, here you go. You remember that useless strip of steel to secure the back of the radio on old car stereos? Yeah, I used that to mount my relays. Nyloc nuts of course. It should survive a nuclear blast......

When I built the 2.0 car, I used ALL LED bulbs, even the dash! I replaced the flasher relay with an Audew LED flasher I got for like 6 bucks on Amazon. It's been flawless, and yes I bought a spare. It works great with the very minimal load of the Bosch-style relays.

Why 4 relays for turn? Well, you don't want the front turn signals to come on when you hit the brake, do you? This is an important part that may have gotten missed in Gordon's post above. The two rear light relays MUST be SPDT(single pole double throw) so the brake light current can go through the relay and get to the bulb when the flasher is working and you are on the brakes.

An enterprising lad should be able to figure it out.  And why relays at all? Then it doesn't matter what combination of bulbs/LED you have. The "load" is handled by the relay and the bulbs you use become irrelevant. I used the flasher I did because it's solid state and should have a longer life-cycle than a conventional flasher. There are two diodes soldered and heat-shrunk into the relays labeled hazard L and R to keep the sided separate, until you want them to flash together for 4-ways.

Nicely done Danny

I agree......Nicely done!

Looks similar to the circuits that control the crossbar switches in relayed telephone exchanges.

Hey,   Wait a minute...................   

Neatly done and it should survive the Apocalypse! Nice work, Danny.

Gordon Nichols posted:

I dug out the wiring diagram for a 1960-ish VW sedan because that vintage car had a single, two-filament rear light that gave you tail light, stop light and directional in a single bulb, AND should have that smaller diameter column, too.  The diagram might help you, Ed, in unnahstaning how it works.

The VW directional lever on the steering column is all you need and takes the place of any relays.  The 1959-1960-ish lever switch has all four lights fed into it, along with a 12V signal wire from the brake switch AND a pulsed 12V wire from the flasher - six wires in all.

If the lever is neutral, it feeds the 12V signal from the stop light switch directly to both rear brake filaments and they light up with braking.

If the lever is moved left, it gets it's 12V pulsed power from the flasher (which is just a thermally operated switch that pulses on and off when power is applied), disconnects both the right side lights and connects both lefts.

Move it to the right and the opposite happens.

So, if the lever is moved to the right and you step on the brake, and it applies the brake 12V to the left side rear while it continues to blink both right sides (front/rear).  

All of the switching is done inside of the directional lever switch.

The attached circuit diagram uses a 3-prong flasher:  Constant 12V from the fuse, pulsed 12V to the lever switch and a pulsed 12V to the dash lamp which it assumes is seeing 12V on the other side (sounds strange, but it works).  Others may work differently - this is how VW did it in 1960.

If a 2-wire flasher is used they usually connect the dash lamp to the lever wire of the flasher and the dash lamp pulses whenever the flasher is activated.  

There are other versions of how this works, but this one should do it for Ed, without a trailer converter and should be Über reliable.  The converters do the job, but cost $20+ and the el cheapos don't last.

Thanks, Gordy.

Yes, that is the signal switch I have. And that is how it tested out.

So excellent to have a guy like you confirm the logic and supply the schematic!

We plugged a two prong flasher into the board (it's a pre-made board) yesterday, so now I guess all I need to do is chop a couple wires and spade the ends & we'll see what's what.

Thanks, all (especially Danny), for showing me there are several ways to skin this particular cat. I always knew there were, but every time I went out there with my fillet knife the cat kept telling me stories....

And, yeah, I'm using a trailer connector to keep the wiring inside the clam isolated and portable. That was never a question.

What a great site this is.

Thanks, guys for the compliments.

Ed, the trailer connector at the clamshell is very reliable(for the last 14 years!). I do run a 5 pin plug now though, it activates my hi-mount LED stoplights in the grille.

UPDATE: Hooked up the blinkers, turned the key on, flipped for left turn and they blinked!

Left front...and both rears....

Right turn blinked right front and both rears...

Wired in a hot lead for "brakes" and that got me brake lights, one dim and one very bright, depending on the stalk switch position.

So...not quite done yet.

“...And something makes me think you might need a judiciously placed diode or two to keep some things from lighting up when you don't want them to...”

Update: This a.m. I remembered to actually GROUND the big, heavy green ground wire I so cleverly added to the harness and...the blinkers now appear to work as they should.

However, I have a dead short somewhere in the parking/headlight circuit I've got to chase down.

Progress...

Progress!

If that uses the VW headlight bucket, I’ll bet the parking light wire goes into a hokey screw terminal on the bottom of the headlight bucket and is too long and shorting over to the lamp’s brass base or the negative wire terminal.

It’s happened to me a couple of times.

OK, guys, so I may just need some advice.

The wiring is moving along fitfully but the brake system has given me a headache. I installed my new T junction on the firewall and the bugger still leaks! I did not like the way the threads were cut on it (sloppy) but I did not have a proper tap to chase them so I just sort of scraped the shavings out with a knife before assembly. I got leaks from the main line and again on the braided line. Tightened them up a few times and the braided one seemed to quit weeping. The main line es no bueno.

AND: at the female to female barrel junction from the passenger side hard line to the flex line: leak as well. WTF?

In every case these leaks are at factory flares. These are not the flares I made. I've tightened them up in most cases as far as my muscles can tighten them. Way more torque than ought to be needed here.

I've started looking for replacement junctions (seeing complaints about poorly-cut threads in them elsewhere), and contemplating making/changing the hard lines as well. First I'll drain the fluid again and take these apart and inspect. . . But still.

Any informed theories and advice are welcome.

edit:

“...informed theories and advice...” pretty much leaves me out, Ed.  I know you’ll figure it out, though.

English or metric?

Scraping out the shavings will always leave something behind that will leak with a metal on metal “seal”.

Wilwood makes/sells a bunch of fittings and adapters (Summit Racing)  of high quality.  Don’t know if they are metric or not.  Most likely the angle of the cone in the junction block you’re using is not precisely the same as the angle of your tubing/connector ends, allowing leakage.  No amount of tightening torque will overcome an angle mismatch because the area that is trying to make a seal is 90+% LESS than it should be to make an adequate sealing surface so the working fluid pressure quickly overcomes the “seal” and pushes past it.

Cozy up to the Hot Rod guys for more sources. HAMB (Hokey ass message board) is always a good info source, but you’ll end up with new junction blocks, for sure.

Thanks Gordon.

These lines are from a stock Bug brake line kit, I believe. All this is Bug stuff, except the front-rear adjustable proportioning valve—that seems to be SAE and so I popped on some SAE threaded thingies and made SAE flares for those.

This was all a year and a half ago, almost.

Like I keep saying: I expected the flares I made to leak, not the factory OEM VW stuff.

When you ask for wild fiction based speculation, I will chime in.

edsnova posted:

Like I keep saying: I expected the flares I made to leak, not the east Asian repop VW stuff.

Fixed it.

Hmm. Point taken, Stan. I got it draining again now.

I also got my steering column electrically isolated today so the horns can (theoretically) work.

Oil lines and filter are installed.

Does anyone know what size threads are on the big lug on the top of our alternators? Mine came without a nut and I don't seem to have one that's right--tried a bunch of metric ones. 

Mine has a 10-32 nut on it.

Bosch AL82X Alt. 

Thanks, Gordon.

So I took the rear brake lines out this a.m. to look for trouble. Couldn't see any nicks or chips or cracks. I took the T and barrel junctions to Pep Boys and left there with a spare barrel—no new T—and the new barrel looked a little rougher than the one I had.

So I hosed all the threads down with Brake Kleen and reassembled, using a new bit of tubing for the cross piece between the barrel and the T going to the right side (the original of that looked like it mayyybe had a crack...? Couldn't tell, so I fetched a new one from my box-o-brakelines. 

I assembled the whole thing on the bench. Tight. Tighter.

Then I installed it back in the car, trying to the the main line back in as tightly as the the rest. 

We'll see if I got it soon enough.

Looking good, Ed.

Bled the brakes again today and no line leaks. Got it so nothing but the juice was coming out the bleeders. But still no appreciable pedal. Got under the car and saw a little weeping from the brake switch so tightened that up. I might mess with the plunger on the MC a little, or maybe it's just how it goes when you start with a dry-installed MC.

While I was under there I drilled and tapped my oil pan for a little pipe plug. If this little brass thingie doesn't get it, I've got a proper steel magnetic plug (M18 1.50) on the way from Summit, so I'll just drill the hole bigger and tap it again for that. No inkling why these CB Performance sumps ship without a proper drain plug. 

Re-made my horn wire cuz the first one was just barely long enough to reach into the button (i.e. too short), and when I was done I noticed I could turn the wheel about 4 inches before anything moved in the tie rod neighborhood. This is with the wheels off. Tomorrow I'll see if maybe the pittman arm is just loosely installed. If it's tight I'll be getting into steering box adjustments, which does not please me.

Did you bench-bleed the master cylinder before you installed it?

I made an adjustment wrench for the front steering box adjuster out of a piece of 3/4" X 1/8" flat stock bent into an "L" with the foot about an inch long to fit into the space.  3/4" wide stock just fits into the depression of the adjuster (which looks like a huge allen wrench socket).  

For that HUGE nut on the front of the box I use a plumber's drain wrench.  Looks like an adjustable crescent wrench 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Hu...and%7CAirTools%7CLIA|71700000045008692|58700004650922073|92700039927177435&gclsrc=aw.ds&&gclid=Cj0KCQjw-b7qBRDPARIsADVbUbUmHDm6UaEDGEXMibzndtnlDYnmr0v3weGXDx0hQw5tipae8VjyPqwaAglQEALw_wcB

The adjuster on top of the box is pretty straight-forward - wrench and screwdriver.

I just got a new master cylinder and have been reading about bench bleeding. Seems there are as many opinions about the best way to bleed it (or not bleed it at all) as there are master cylinders.

Everything from just submerge it in a big bottle full of brake fluid and leave it overnight to just bleed it by bleeding the lines at each wheel.

EDSNOVA, it sure sounds like a leak in the M/C itself could be the culprit. I removed mine and found fluid in the cup where the pushrod from the pedal actuates the M/C. It was little more than damp, but it was there, and I'm assigning cupability to that unless replacing the M/C doesn't resolve the problem.

Good luck with yours!

Thanks guys. Update: 

Tightened the pittman arm about a half turn this am. It started out firm but there's some real torque on it now—maybe 50-60 pounds. The steering wheel moves barely at all now before the works start working. So that was that.

I turned the plunger thing between the master cylinder and the pedal about two and a half revolutions, which took up about an inch of slack in the brake pedal. There is now about 1/2-3/4 of an inch of free play, and I have pedal. Not as high a pedal as I would like, but an apparently firm pedal, the depression of which causes the calipers to close on the rotors. So that's that. I will tighten that up with like one more turn of the screw (to get the free play down around 1/4 inch), add a lock nut and done. 

—Except I'm missing one of the anti-squeak clips. I know I have it somewhere; it came off when I put the car on Cory's trailer to get it to the paint shop, and I remember putting it in a box with a few other odds and ends. But which box? Where box?

Meanwhile: Rear left axle seal appears to be leaking. dang. So will scare up a couple axle seal kits and get in there again week after next.

Ordered exhaust flanges to complete the Sebring muffler setup.

Rest of today will be on wires: finish the horn setup, get the headlights and dimmer switch squared away, and then the remaining engine/gauge wires.

"Meanwhile: Rear left axle seal appears to be leaking. dang. So will scare up a couple axle seal kits and get in there again week after next."

@Al Gallo had to mess with one of his a couple of times before he got it to seal.  Maybe he can update you on what he did.

When I bled my brakes after putting in the master cylinder I had too much play in the pedal too. Finally got almost all the play out of the pedal and the brakes worked fine after that. 

Robert M posted:

When I bled my brakes after putting in the master cylinder I had too much play in the pedal too. Finally got almost all the play out of the pedal and the brakes worked fine after that. 

Was that the result of re-bleeding them over and over or what?

Panhandle Bob posted:

Robert M posted:

When I bled my brakes after putting in the master cylinder I had too much play in the pedal too. Finally got almost all the play out of the pedal and the brakes worked fine after that. 

Was that the result of re-bleeding them over and over or what?

I bled them twice but what happened was when I installed the new m/c I set the plunger in and attached it to the pedal but left too much free play. When I thought the pedal was firm it was actually stopping at the limiter. I took out more free play but again it wasn't giving enough pedal to make the brakes work very well. Finally I got it adjusted so the plunger was moving enough to actually compress the fluid in the m/c. In my haste I was measuring free play closer to the bottom of the pedal where it pivots as opposed to the top of the pedal. 1/4" of play where the plunger attaches to the pedal correlates to more free play at the top of the pedal.